PG+TG combo for 1st S12 conversion

[GuyFoX 24]

I've started the 1st stage of my S12 conversion(a little sooner than I'd anticipated), so I need to quickly decide on the parts needed to complete this crucial 1st stage, and could use some information and advice on the Trigger Guard + Pistol Grip combo. I've got some definite ideas about the PG that I'd like to hear some feedback on, and I know roughly what kind of TG I want, but this is the area where I could use the most help in narrowing my search and learning more about the details and the options available given my requirements.

 

Trigger Guard:

I haven't had much time to really focus on the TG, and am still a little foggy on some of the details. It seems that the PG is attached differently depending on what kind of TG is used, and I still haven't quite got that totally figured out. I think one way involves cutting a square hole in the receiver, and the other you can simply screw or bolt the PG on, which I'd say is the way I'd prefer to do it as that sounds easiest and doesn't involve removing more material from the receiver. So if anyone can help clarify that bit, I'd appreciate it, and figuring out that part will also be a big part of which TG kit I end up buying. I'd also like to get a TG that has plenty of space for my trigger finger so that I could shoot with golves on if needed. I also want the TG to be good and sturdy/solid, and it would be nice if it looked cool to, but function is the highest priority. I don't care if it looks "traditional", I am primarily concerned with function, and as far as asthetics go, I actually prefer a unique and different look.

 

One of the things that I plan on doing different, and is really the major determining factor for my TG+PG combo, is I want a TG that will allow me to use an AR style PG. I am doing this for a few reasons, which I will discuss more in the PG half of this post. So I am hoping to find a solid TG that allows plenty of room for my finger, and allows me to simply attach an AR style PG without doing major surgery on the receiver. I wish one of the vendors or somebody had pics of all the different S12 TGs side-by-side to get a better idea of how they compare size wise, but have not found anyone that has that. I posted a request for some pics like that in the CSS subforum(since I figured CSS has the widest variety of S12 TGs), but I guess they have more important things to do. If anyone else thinks that would be useful and posts that they would like that too, we might see some results.

 

I know there are at least several different kinds of S12 TGs for AR style PGs, so I'd appreciate insight, advice and information on what my options are, and which ones would be best and fulfill my requirements.

 

Pistol Grip:

After looking at pictures of all the available Pistol Grips, I like the look of the Ergo Suregrip the best. Of course I wish there was a Saiga-12 empornium in town so I could go look at all the available parts in person and get a feel for them so I would KNOW which parts suited me best, for instance which PG fit my hand the best, but there's not, and I can't think of any way to actually check out parts in person.

 

I read a thread(that of course I can no longer find) where somebody mentioned that an AR pistol grip is at more of an angle than an AK PG, which helps distribute and absorb recoil better. I've thought about it, and while I'm not a physics major or firearms expert, that does actually makes some sense to me. I'd imagine that not everyone will agree with that point, and I'm open to all constructive input, but my mind is pretty much made up at this point. Also, I've read reviews of the various S12 PGs available, and the only real criticism I've read about the Ergo-grip is that the area on the top-back of the grip can be uncomfortable where it presses into the web of your hand. The AK & AR Ergo Suregrips are slightly different, the biggest difference being in that area where the grip would rest on the web of your hand. The AR Suregrip looks like it gives the web of your hand a lot more room and would be more comfortable.

 

So given all of the above factors, I'm pretty certain that I want an AR style Ergo-Suregrip for my Saiga 12 conversion. I would like to hear from anyone who has an Ergo Suregrip or an AR style PG on their S12, particularly an AR style Ergo Suregrip. I'm also interested to hear input about the pros and cons of an AR style pistol grip.

[vtec16 0]

Check out www.saigatechusa.com. Ray has a trigger guard that requires no cutting for the pistol grip nut. It uses the existing 3 holes from the original trigger guard. And you can use a variety of PG's of your choosing.

[Shadoh 16]

I myself like the AR style grips but I do not like the steep angle they give you on this gun.

 

This is the adapter Im working on for my conversion

 

The closest one I could find to purchase was this one

But I don't like the angle and I don't think the rounded part of the guard fits the look of the S12.

 

R&R also makes a nice one but its pretty pricey and I'm not sure it works without other parts that they sell to go with it.

 

As far as the angle on the AR grip style helping with recoil, if you say so ). I personally think a grip should naturally point the gun where you would normally point your hand, not at some uncomfortable angle.

 

 

Edit: Big thumbs up to the site for making it so easy to post a pic. Thats really sweet. I had already uploaded my pic to my website before I saw that I could just upload to your site directly. NICE!

Edited August 13, 2010 by Shadoh

[GuyFoX 24]

I took a look at Saigatech but it looks like their TGs are all for AK grips, primarily the SAW grip(and I definitely don't want a SAW grip).

 

The JT solid billet AR TG pictured above(from the CSS pic) is the one I had seen, and I like the looks of it a lot. I think that would fill all of my requirements. It's very solid, looks like it has plenty of trigger-finger room, accepts AR grips, I guess I just need to find out what exactly is involved in installing it. Though I like that one and am thinking I will probably go for it unless I find something else that blows me away, I'm still open to other models/ideas. Are there any other S12 TGs for AR PGs similar to that one?

 

That's a unique adapter you're making Shadoh, but if you want that kind of angle from your PG, why don't you just use an AK PG? Aren't there AK grips that are pretty similar to that AR grip? What is it about AR grips that you like if not the angle? As far as the angle and recoil, I just said I'd read someone else who had that opinion, I've never actually tried it. But it does make sense, to me. A grip that's totally vertical would be much more awkward for me than an angled grip, and it's impossible to know for sure until I try it(and unfortunately I have no way to try before I buy, has anyone figured out a way to get a feel for parts in person before buying??), but I think the more angled AR grip would be more comfortable to me than the more vertical AK grip. Different strokes n' all.

[jmacken37 4]

I'm a big fan of the Ergo AK grips. Very nice and comfy. No problems with recoil distribution on my guns.

 

Jake

[GuyFoX 24]

Yeah, the Ergo grip looks very well designed and comfortable. I think they have come up with a good compromise on the finger grooves, with the subtle rounded swells. I also like the grippy rubber coating of the Suregrip model, is that the one you have? I would think that version is by far the most popular one, as I can't think of any reason why anyone would get the Rigid version if they had a choice. The storage compartment is a nice feature too.

 

While researching PGs for my S12 conversion, the only other ones that stood out were the Hogue grip and the CAA(?) with the different inserts for the front and back. Both of those are probably pretty nice, but I still like the look/idea of the Ergo Surgrip the best. And like I explained above, after reading reviews of S12 PGs, particularly the Ergo-grip; and looking at pictures of the AK & AR Ergo Grips, the AR Ergo Suregrip looks like a winner.

 

But aside from the differences between the AK & AR models of the Ergo Grips, I'm still curious what the main difference(s?) are between AK & AR Pistol Grips in general? Obviously AR grips are slightly more angled, but are there ANY other differences between AK & AR PGs? I would think there has to be something else I'm not aware of. Why else would there be several different companies making TGs or adapters to use AR PGs on AKs if there weren't some appreciable differences or benefits to using an AR style PG? I don't know much about ARs, but from what I have seen it looks like most basic stock AR PGs are pretty plain. Is it just the angle, or is their a larger variety of AR PGs, or what? What are the pros & cons of using an AR style PG, particularly on a converted Saiga 12?

Edited August 14, 2010 by GuyFoX

[GuyFoX 24]

-Anybody with experience &/or input on AK vs. AR Pistol Grips, or have recommendations for any other S12 Trigger Guards for using AR PGs beside the JT one pictured above? I doubt I'll find one better than that, but I'd like to know about all of my options.

 

-I also have a question about mounting an AR Ergo PG using that JT TG. The JT TG is bolt on, so I take it that means I would not need to cut a square hole in the receiver to attach a PG?(just drill holes for the bolts?)

 

-It also looks like the AR Ergo PG would need to be modified to fit on an S-12(?), from the pics it looks like I would need to cut off the part that extends up from the back of the grip(the area that rests on the web of your hand when gripping it). Is that correct? Does it need to be modified in any other ways to fit?

 

I could use some input from anyone who has installed/used that JT TG on an S-12, and/or used an AR PG(especially an AR Ergo-grip). Anybody, anybody, Beuller? I'm pretty sure I've seen some pics of AR style ergo-grips & the JT TG on converted S12s in the pic gallery, I guess the trick is getting some of those people to see this post... ...Bonus good karma points for anyone with any constructive contributions!

[Gothmog 24]

I have and Ergo on mine, I use the Tromix DIY TG. Properly installed, this one has not given me any problems at all. GL on your project, it will get worse.

 

 

HUZZAH!!

[GuyFoX 24]

Actually, I think the worst of it is past. I've spent a LONG time searching for, gathering, sorting, and trying to make sense of all the relevant information. At this point it's just focusing on the specific areas that I'm working on, and using that info. At this point the area I'm on, obviously, is the TG + PG combo, which I have pretty much decided unless any serious game-changing info comes to light.

 

Anyways, I couldn't find any pics comparing the two side by side, so I put this together in Photoshop. They're probably not exactly to scale, but close enough and it shows the difference in their shapes pretty well.

 

Here are the AK & AR Ergo-Grips:

[GuyFoX 24]

Here's another view of the two styles of Ergo PGs.

 

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Here is my Saiga .223 with AR style grip, using the factory TG I just bent and re used.

 

It would be even better with the AK Builder DIY TG kit with three attachment points (in a triangle like a real AK, not straight in line) and the choice to use rivets or screws, as well as the choice to use a standard square PG nut or the included screw on bushing.

 

There's also another Ergo AK grip which I prefer over that one pictured above. I'll see if I can find a pic.

[GuyFoX 24]

I did some searching, and there is a new(?) version of the Ergo Grip, a Right Hand model which has a thumb shelf on the left side. Previously I'd only seen the ambidextrous model, the Right Hand Ergo Grip is not in the Ergo Grip catalog I got(about a year ago), so I thought it was a new development until I did some more searching and found a post from 2004 in another forum mentioning a Right Hand Ergo Grip. So I guess they just brought it back?

 

From the pictures I've gathered from this site, I found one pic of an S12 with a Right Hand AR Ergo Grip on it(though I haven't gone through ALL of the pix in the S12 gallery yet). The S12 in question belongs to a new member(Mangler), who's only posted twice so far(though he's already converted his S12, so I guess he's been learning by lurking) and hasn't posted about his PG setup. I've PM'd him about it... I found a few other pix of the Right Hand Ergo Grip stuck in the web, though there seem to be different designs.

One of them has a much more pronounced thumb shelf:

 

& one a much more soft and subtle thumb shelf:

. I don't know if one is an old model and the other the current one, or which is which? Anybody know?

 

Has anyone had any experience with a Right Hand AR Ergo Suregrip, or any kind of Right Hand Ergo Grip? I'd really be interested to learn more about ALL of the different variations of the Ergo Grip.

 

Now I'm trying to decide if I should go for the Right Hand AR Ergo Suregrip, or the Ambi version. I'm kinda leaning towards going the easy route and sticking with the Ambi Ergo PG. I don't think CSS carries a Right Hand version & I'd prefer to order all the parts for this stage of the conversion from one place to save on shipping since I've already gone WAY over my initial conservative conversion budget.

 

 

The other kinds of AR Ergo grips are the Large Frame AR Grips:

 

 

I'm not sure if the Grip itself is any different aside from a "grip spacer":

 

 

The Grip Spacer seems to extend how far up the upper hand-web support goes, which would be cut off for an S12 anyways.

 

 

There is also the Ergo Tactical Deluxe Grip:

 

 

The TD Grip is a good bit wider below the hand-web area, and comes with an optional Palm Shelf. The catalog doesn't give much info on it(the catalog & website are both a little short on the details I crave), it just says the TD grip has the "Same grip features as our original ERGO Grips but in a heavier tactical design". Ohhhh nevermind, that explains everything, it's more "tactical"(seriously, in doing all of my firearm research that word is used & abused so much I have developed a "tactical allergy", but I digress...).

I don't like the look of the TD Grip so much, but I guess if I try the regular Ergo Grip and it is too skinny* then the TD Grip would be an option, though I definitely would not get the awkward looking Palm Shelf accessory. I'm not sure exactly what the Palm Shelf is used for, but I know it has NO business on a combat shotgun.

 

I was kinda surprised when I stumbled onto this pic showing the width of the Ergo Grips*:

 

The Original Ergo Grip is much skinnier than I'd imagined, and the TD is more... convoluted.

 

Oh, and then there's the Large Frame AR Tactical Deluxe Ergo Grip, which I think is just the TD Grip + the "grip spacer".

 

 

Were any of these what you were referring to Cobra? I'd think it's one of those because AFAIK those are ALL of the Ergo Grip variations.

Edited September 4, 2010 by GuyFoX

[GuyFoX 24]

Wow, this thread is really popular... with me. Kickin' it Sub-Mob style... OK, just a few last details to obsess over with the aid of Photoshop visuals and I think I'll have the AR Ergo Grips pretty much covered? I'm pretty sure I understand these parts, but my self confidence was surgically extracted when they were bolting the remaining fragments of my spine back together, so I like to double-check and triple verify & clarify.

 

Again here is a modified pic of an AR Ergo Grip:

1- So the part highlighted in red is the part that needs to be removed so the grip will fit flush against the Saiga 12 receiver, right?

 

2- And then the part highlighted in blue; at first it looked like a slice was cut out of the grip, but now I'm thinking it is a part of the grip that's been smoothed down for the use of an AR safety, yeah?

 

So am I figuring these details correctly? I'm pretty sure about the 1st one, but just to further clarify; is that the only modification that needs to be made to the grip for S12 use(with the JTE TG)? Bonus Question: What's the best way TO remove that part of the grip? Seeing as how I want the SUREgrip which has the rubber overmold, I'm assuming it needs to be cut, with... something... sharp? Any suggestions??

 

Anybody who ISN'T ME feel free to post advice, suggestions, information about the parts I am scrutinizing and the best ways to work with them. I could use the company, and I should probably stop talking to myself...

 

 

 

PS - What's the connection between JT Engineering and R & R Targets? Their stuff looks really similar(but only R&R has a website?). Like I was comparing their TGs, which look almost identical except the outside front-bottom corner of the JTE TG is rounded off(internally they're the same), and there's some kind of weird cover panel on top of the R&R TG that I don't understand the purpose of. Oh yeah, and the R&R TG cost a little over twice as much as the JTE TG!! I mean seriously, I can understand the premium price for the JTE TG as it's a specialty item, milled from solid billet, and is pretty easy to install, self-contained and doesn't require PG nuts and stuff like that(+IMO it looks cool, yeah I'm not an old-skool Kalashnikov purist). But the R&R looks like it's pretty much the same, but costs more than twice as much. I understand that it's worth it to pay more for quality parts that will function flawlessly and last, but $125 for a trigger guard?! Jesus titty-fucking Christe, it might be a nice trigger guard but it's just a fucking trigger guard! It's not solid gold, and as far as I know it does not magically induce select fire capabilities to the weapon. OK, that's all, I'm just saying, I'm cheap and that's a bit excessive. I mean I think their left-side charging handle was in that price-range, and that's a much bigger deal IMO. I'm tired now...

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

I'll have to upload a pic of my ergo grip made for AKs....

 

Ok here ya go. This thread actually motivated me to finally cut the POS welded on TG off my Alliance Abomination S-12 and put a real TG on there. This is the one I was talking about that I sell, and some of the PGs I tried with it to see how they fit. You can pick out the Ergo PG in the pics. It was about the only one that would need slight mods to work with it but still no problem. The only thing you have to do to install one of these TGs is drill the front two mounting holes in the receiver. The rear hole is already there. Since there are three attachment points in a triangle, like the 5 rivet setup on real AKs, I believe these are stronger and more authentic looking than any TG kit that attaches with just two screws straight in line with each other using the existing holes. The TG on the factory Saiga 12-C, and other Saiga 12s with PGs, looks just like this.

The pics show what it looks like installed with the included steel rivets, and with the button cap machine screws and threaded plate (also included). Very easy to install with the screws, and if you have a way to crush the rivets you can do a more professional and permanent install. It can also be used with the included bolt on PG bushing, or you can cut the square PG nut hole in receiver and do it that way....your choice but each is very sturdy.

 

First, the Alliance welded TG and removal...

Rivets placed and ready for bucking. This configuration is setup to use with standard PG nut, awaiting cutting of square hole in receiver.

Rivets and what they look like inside where they need squashed. This setup shows the PG bushing included in the kit, which requires no holes to be drilled or cut.

Screws and plate instead...

 

PGs...

(GuyFox this first one is the AK rubber ergo grip I was referring to)