cw3sting 12 Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 (edited) I decided to create a comparison image for others to view the characteristics of 12 popular cartridges fired at two range visits. The targets were at 50 yards to be able to minimize the effects of wind drift and other ballistic characteristics. The images are in the order of firing for the 20100730 visit. For the 20100815 session, the firing order was reversed to be able to compare the effects of barrel fouling and other operational conditions. For scale, the rings of the individual targets are 1/4 inch spacing. The full range reports are posted at: http://forum.saiga-1...ndpost&p=535726 http://forum.saiga-1...ndpost&p=541605 I hope to take the best performing mid weight cartridges plus maybe a few heavier loads to the 300 yard range next. Enjoy. I hope this work benefits others. Edited August 17, 2010 by TxMark Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MN.9130 44 Posted August 17, 2010 Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 From the 15th, your grouping with Hornady 168gr A-Max is Out-Flipping-STANDING! Your group MOTIVATES me, and I don't even HAVE a .308! Seriously, that's incredible marksmanship. I'd be very interested to see what happens at 300m, but that'll probably take a LOT longer to produce. I'm sure others will be along with slightly more intelligent replies, but again, very nice work! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cw3sting 12 Posted August 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2010 From the 15th, your grouping with Hornady 168gr A-Max is Out-Flipping-STANDING! Your group MOTIVATES me, and I don't even HAVE a .308! Seriously, that's incredible marksmanship. I'd be very interested to see what happens at 300m, but that'll probably take a LOT longer to produce. I'm sure others will be along with slightly more intelligent replies, but again, very nice work! You're too kind. Remember... that was 50 yards. My shooting is nothing like the late '70's when I was driving tacks at 100 yards with my Winchester 70 XTR bull barrel .243. The Hornady 168gr A-Max is certainly a winner with the S308 16incher. I'm guessing at a little over 2500 fps out of the tube (2700 fps from a 24in barrel). The 300 yard session is like 3-4 weeks away. I've just got to find the perfect target for my 16x scope. Thanks for the comments. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Zambidis 90 Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 I too would be very interested to see some more groups at longer range with the 168 A max loads. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 50 yards is a bit too close to get a good idea of repeatablity on the 308. 100 yards/meters remains pretty standard since its the best zero for irons or optics. I know cant please anyone can we. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cw3sting 12 Posted August 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 (edited) Being prior Navy, I've never forgotten the Marines maxim of battle zero at 300 yards. To me, 50 yards in the beginning of mechanical accuracy testing. If a field piece is mechanically capable of 1/2 in. groups at 50 yards and does less than 3 inches at 300 yards, it's either wind or the shooter - simple geometry. That was the goal. Short of a sturdy vice, the shooting platform was as stable as possible, providing for a scientific study of the rifle and cartridges combined. Fear not. After scoping out the 300 yard series, I'll move down to 200 then 100 yards. The last step is 600 yards, which is my guess for a maximum practical defense range of the S308. That will complete my ballistics card for that cartridge (and probably the DAG, Wolf, Tula, AE 7.62, and the Hornady 155gr Palma). As soon as I can stage the photo, I hope to put the test cartridges in front of 1/10 in. graph paper to indicate the length overall and basic dimensions. The overall length and bullet/cartridge shape should be very telling by way of accuracy. BTW.. here's the paper 'best guess' ballistics card for the A-Max, according to the Hornady online ballistics computer and figuring a 16in. barrel velocity of 2500 f/ps: 300 Yard Zero 0 25 50 75 100 150 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1000 -3.0 -0.5 1.6 3.4 4.8 6.3 6.1 0.0 -14.8 -39.7 -76.5 -127.4 -194.9 -282.0 -391.8 So, you can please most everyone , given time, effort, and patience. And, any suggestions are welcomed. Thanks for your comments. Edited August 21, 2010 by TxMark Quote Link to post Share on other sites
regal 2 Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 Do you have a scope on you're Saiga? Any pictures of it? Do you have any issues with long range + scope maintaining checkweld? The performance of this rifle is very good for the price, the ergonomics are what concern me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cw3sting 12 Posted August 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 I was wrong about the scope used when I originally posted the range reports. This one is actually the Leapers Accushot SCP3-M3124AOMD (a 3x12 44mm with 30mm tube and side turret AO). I have the Accushot 4x16 on my bolt action. Cheek-weld is a problem of course, but not debilitating. Just a little bit of head dance reveals the sweet spot easily, then I shoot. I figure I will eventually either come up with my own design or just buy a better stock with an adjustable cheek piece. Hell, duct tape and a small beanbag would probably do the trick. Eye relief and centering on the scope aren't bad considering the cost. I'm looking forward to the 300 yard trials in a couple of weeks. I've only shot it a 50 and 100 yards so far, and I'm really looking forward to opening up the distance to see what this puppy can do. I'm over 50, prior Navy, and have fired quite a few civilian and military weapons in my day. In the past I've owned an HK 91-A3, a mini-14, and several mid-range civilian hunting rifles. I was attracted to the Saiga because it's an original factory made AK with a pedigree, not a pieced together copy. About $300 worth of home gunsmithing can produce a $1200 battle rifle that works every time you pull the trigger and needs very little maintenance. I just wanted to see how accurate the basic design can be without major rebuilding and what cartridge produces that accuracy. Photo attached as requested. Thanks for the comments. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cw3sting 12 Posted August 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 For anyone interested, below is a photo lineup of the cartridges used in the field trials, plus a couple extra. Here's the legend for the rounds. 01. Black Hills .308 WIN Match, 168gr HP-Moly, Lot 1630160610 02. Fiocchi .308 WIN, 165gr Game King BTHP, 308GKB, Lot 120894500 03. Winchester .308 WIN, 150gr PHP (Protected HP), PowerMax Bonded, X3085BP, Lot SRSX225 E128540 04. American Eagle 7.62mm, 168gr OTM, A76251M1A, Lot Q21X515 05. Hornady .308 WIN, 155gr A-Max, #8095PM, Lot 3100555 06. Winchester 7.62mm, 147gr. FMJ, Q3130, Lot 036CL80 07. Wolf .308 WIN, 150gr. FMJ, Steel Case Poly, Lot J0740-09 08. Hornady .308 WIN, 168gr A-Max, #8096, Lot 3100684 09. Nosler Custom Competition .308 WIN, 168gr Match BTHP, 60054, Lot 60054 1342 02001 10. Black Hills .308 WIN Match, 168gr Boat-Tail HP, Lot 2826093229 11. Black Hills .308 WIN Match, 175gr HP-Moly, Lot 1628160250 12. Prvi Partizan .308 WIN Match, 168gr BTHP 13. Black Hills Gold .308 WIN Match, 155gr Hornady A-Max, Lot 2804090780 - B 187 A. DAG Nato 7.62mm German Military Surplus B. Radway Green 7.62mm British Military Surplus Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK86 1 Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 Is there a reason that people do not use Federal Match ammo? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cw3sting 12 Posted August 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 Is there a reason that people do not use Federal Match ammo? For me, I just haven't gotten to it yet. But I will before long. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted August 23, 2010 Report Share Posted August 23, 2010 Is there a reason that people do not use Federal Match ammo? $ TxMark, 100 yards is also pretty independent of environmental conditions and gives a more practical representation of the ammo. While I cant say for sure why Ive seen ammo that looks excellent at 50yds but starts opening up at 100. Spin stability perhaps? Maybe someone can say for sure. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
308SAIGA 55 Posted August 23, 2010 Report Share Posted August 23, 2010 If I may be so bold, I do not recommend using the Radway Green 7.62mm British Military Surplus, in your saiga, these are made for the M60 Machine gun and are very hot...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cw3sting 12 Posted August 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2010 If I may be so bold, I do not recommend using the Radway Green 7.62mm British Military Surplus, in your saiga, these are made for the M60 Machine gun and are very hot...... I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere RG surplus ammo has been discussed. It was my understanding that 7.62x51 NATO is a specification that does not lend itself to differentiation between loads for M60's, M14's, or FN-FAL, etc. All of my research reveals that the only difference between the rounds is some are linked and some are not. The RG NATO rounds I fired appear to be milder in velocity in comparison to several other cartridges. In the comparison graphic above, the RG surplus group is roughly 1 3/4" above the aimpoint, which is the same basic area as the Wolf 150gr and the Winchester 149gr. That would tend to indicate similar velocities and load. I would think that if a round is hotter, it would produce higher velocities and print lower on the target. Seriously, I didn't see any signs of high pressure on the cases or primers of the expended Radway Green surplus rounds. In the .308 vs. 7.62x51 NATO debate, the only truly 'dangerous load that I am aware of is: 7.62mm x 51mm cartridges from lots dated 1975 pose serious safety risks because of excessive pressures. The cartridges, headstamped "CBC 7.62 75" reference: http://www.thegunzone.com/30cal.html While there is a slight headspacing difference between 7.62x51mm NATO and .308 Winchester cartridges, I haven't seen any problems firing any military or commercial ammunition in my Saiga. Since the Saiga is designed for the higher pressure .308 Winchester standard (62K PSI), I don't think firing a lower pressure military surplus cartridge (58K PSI) is going to cause problems. reference: http://www.303british.com/id36.html I appreciate the warning, but I'm not convinced. Thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted August 23, 2010 Report Share Posted August 23, 2010 (edited) If I may be so bold, I do not recommend using the Radway Green 7.62mm British Military Surplus, in your saiga, these are made for the M60 Machine gun and are very hot...... I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere RG surplus ammo has been discussed. It was my understanding that 7.62x51 NATO is a specification that does not lend itself to differentiation between loads for M60's, M14's, or FN-FAL, etc. All of my research reveals that the only difference between the rounds is some are linked and some are not. The RG NATO rounds I fired appear to be milder in velocity in comparison to several other cartridges. In the comparison graphic above, the RG surplus group is roughly 1 3/4" above the aimpoint, which is the same basic area as the Wolf 150gr and the Winchester 149gr. That would tend to indicate similar velocities and load. I would think that if a round is hotter, it would produce higher velocities and print lower on the target. Seriously, I didn't see any signs of high pressure on the cases or primers of the expended Radway Green surplus rounds. In the .308 vs. 7.62x51 NATO debate, the only truly 'dangerous load that I am aware of is: 7.62mm x 51mm cartridges from lots dated 1975 pose serious safety risks because of excessive pressures. The cartridges, headstamped "CBC 7.62 75" reference: http://www.thegunzone.com/30cal.html While there is a slight headspacing difference between 7.62x51mm NATO and .308 Winchester cartridges, I haven't seen any problems firing any military or commercial ammunition in my Saiga. Since the Saiga is designed for the higher pressure .308 Winchester standard (62K PSI), I don't think firing a lower pressure military surplus cartridge (58K PSI) is going to cause problems. reference: http://www.303british.com/id36.html I appreciate the warning, but I'm not convinced. Thanks. You are 100% correct. Any round speced as NATO must comply with that pressure spec. And the Saiga is 308 which is higher pressure than NATO. What I have seen once in NATO linked ammo intended for use in MG was a drop in consistency so the groups were rather larger than I expected. I have not seen it since. I have been told the NATO spec is lower to accommodate high rates of fire to reduce barrel heating. Edited August 23, 2010 by Rhodes1968 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cw3sting 12 Posted August 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2010 $ TxMark, 100 yards is also pretty independent of environmental conditions and gives a more practical representation of the ammo. While I cant say for sure why Ive seen ammo that looks excellent at 50yds but starts opening up at 100. Spin stability perhaps? Maybe someone can say for sure. You have a valid point. Some ammo also looks great at 100 yards and can't hit a barn at 300 or greater. I'm not paying $30 to $40 a box for ammunition that I can't trust out to 600 yards. I have a method to my madness dating back to my varmint hunting days of the 70's, which was bad news to many coyotes out to over 400 yards. Session 1: 50 yards - initial sighting in and evaluate basic ammo characteristics Session 2: 300 yards - narrow field of candidates for best medium range accuracy Session 3: 100 yards - validate accumulated data Session 4: 200 yards - validate accumulated data Session 5: 400 yards - narrow field of candidates for medium-long range accuracy Session 6: 600 yards - narrow field of candidates for long range accuracy The end result is a valuable resource on the ballistics of various candidate rounds, plus field tested ballistics tables for the rounds known to be accurate for the range needed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
308SAIGA 55 Posted August 24, 2010 Report Share Posted August 24, 2010 If I may be so bold, I do not recommend using the Radway Green 7.62mm British Military Surplus, in your saiga, these are made for the M60 Machine gun and are very hot...... All of my research reveals that the only difference between the rounds is some are linked and some are not. OK let us know how it works out for you..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cw3sting 12 Posted August 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 If I may be so bold, I do not recommend using the Radway Green 7.62mm British Military Surplus, in your saiga, these are made for the M60 Machine gun and are very hot...... All of my research reveals that the only difference between the rounds is some are linked and some are not. OK let us know how it works out for you..... You bet. I'll keep a close eye on the primers and case heads. Someday, I might even buy a chronograph. I suspect that the RG is pushing 2600 from an 20" barrel like most of the MIL loadings. On thing that Rhodes1968 pointed out about formerly linked ammo lacks in consistency. I believe that's due to the mechanical handling, then unlinking that does minor damage affecting accuracy. I certainly wouldn't rely on milsurp past 300 yards. Thanks for your concern. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted August 26, 2010 Report Share Posted August 26, 2010 I'm taking my CHEAP Tula 150gr FMJ ($5/box) and push it as far as I can up in the Poconos this weekend.. My scope goes to 450 yards with the BDC dial, and I will go 300 then 450 yards with it.. I can do 200 yards locally, so 300 and 450 are decent goals for me.. I just want my FBI-'Q' target to get tagged.. and I'd be happy.. (its a reduced silouette). I know that I PUSH when I shoot, so I will aim a little RIGHT.. (for the push left ) Be running 10 rounds at 300 yards or so and 10 rounds at 450 yards or so. I will run also 5 rounds of my Prvt Partisan 168GR HPBT ($18/box) also at the 450 yard mark.. Be running a RANGE report when i get back Sunday about 7pm or so.. TXMark.. be good to hear how you fair out at 300 and 400 with these loads also.. Seeing what a Saiga 308 can do with various FACTORY BOXED loads is a GREAT idea. IMHO.. Thats why were all here anyway.. become proficent with our Saiga's. (zombies don't sleep) Al Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cw3sting 12 Posted August 27, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2010 Al; Looking forward to seeing your experiences at the longer range, especially with the Prvi 168. Like I said before, I ran two failure to extracts then shelved the box. But, I've got the 16 incher and the powder burn rate may not play nice with the gas port. Your longer barrel may do otherwise. I'm nervous as hell about stepping up to the longer ranges. I haven't shot over 100 yds since the 80's. BTW.. I'm adding the Federal 168gr GMM to the mix just for comparison. Thanks for the heads-up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrmock 7 Posted August 27, 2010 Report Share Posted August 27, 2010 Al; Looking forward to seeing your experiences at the longer range, especially with the Prvi 168. Like I said before, I ran two failure to extracts then shelved the box. But, I've got the 16 incher and the powder burn rate may not play nice with the gas port. Your longer barrel may do otherwise. I'm nervous as hell about stepping up to the longer ranges. I haven't shot over 100 yds since the 80's. BTW.. I'm adding the Federal 168gr GMM to the mix just for comparison. Thanks for the heads-up. I shot my 21" S308 a few weeks ago at some longer ranges. I was using Brown Bear FMJ and SPs with my 2-7X scope. The range had a Larue target (~12"x20") at 250 yards and 500 yards. I could hit the 250 yard target pretty much every time. However, I was maybe 1 of 10 hittting the 500 yard target. I think I will buy some of those Hornady A-max rounds you tested and try it again in the future. jrmock Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cw3sting 12 Posted August 28, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2010 jrmock; Thanks for the word on your experience and be sure to post your results with the A-Max. I had read many glowing reviews before deciding to test that round. One thing that I believe will be quite valuable for everyone is serious accuracy testing and comparisons not only for cartridges, but also between the 16 and 22 inch barrel lengths. I had originally wanted a 21 inch barrel S308, but nobody had one for sale when I had the money, so I got the 16 incher. Now I begin to wonder that 16 to 18 inches may be the best length for an autoloader like the AK design. We'll see. Good luck. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted August 28, 2010 Report Share Posted August 28, 2010 (edited) Pocono field was short. I managed to shoot about 320 yards with the Tula 150FMJ.. got 9 out of 19 as I had my scope set tooo low.. like 225 ish.. I was shooting from a kneeling position up a trail.. ugghhh. I am happy with it.. Now to just dial in at 200 yards flat at my local range and TIGHTEN that group up.. Al Edited August 29, 2010 by YWHIC Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cw3sting 12 Posted August 29, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2010 Al; I saw that range report. Damn skippy to be proud. I can't shoot worth a flip kneeling or standing (especially 300+ yards). Good shootin'. Outside of the A-Max test tomorrow, one other cartridge really has me fascinated. I'm trying the HSM 168gr Berger VLD. BTW... attached is my 'theoretical' ballistics chart workup for the test cartridges. I guess I'm about to find out how dead-on it is. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted August 29, 2010 Report Share Posted August 29, 2010 I especially await your report.. The 5 rounds of the Prvt Partisan fed just fine but could not get the 315yd target today.. even set the scope at 300+ yards.. Maybe I had a bad day.. I'll be restting with a 200 Yard ZERO and then when I can go back and try longer yards.. I like the Hornady ammo.. hopefully the A-Max 168 will ring true.. Al Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cw3sting 12 Posted August 31, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2010 Sorry about the late non-report. Cartridge test range day was a pitiful bust. Hot as hell, no cover over the bench, variable gusting wind, glare on the scope, plus heat mirage all the way to the target. On top of that, my 12x scope and 36x spotter couldn't see target hits. Last, but not least, the IBS300 target just doesn't cut it for mixing different loads with a military rifle at longer ranges. I had hits scattering on the different bullseyes. I'll wait for cooler East Texas weather for the longer range testing, and after I've mounted and zeroed my new 24x scope with 60x spotter. Sometime this weekend, I'll do 100 yards and pick the winners to go to 200 after that, then wait for better weather for 300-400-600. The Prvi is interesting stuff. I think it has to have a fast burning powder. I've also noticed that the extraction groove around the cartridge base appears to have a sharper cut and is more narrow compared to most other cases. On the my 16 incher, the Prvi just sits in the chamber without extracting, both the 147gr FMJ and 168gr BTHP. Good luck on the next outing. BTW... I think the "Generic Milsurp" from the above ballistics table should work for the Prvi Partizan. Even with my 16in. barrel, the 200 yard zero should only drop around 9 inches at 300 yards. Yours would drop even less. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted August 31, 2010 Report Share Posted August 31, 2010 TxMark.. Wind is definately a bad thing to shoot long distance.. I was going to ask you about the target you chose.. You can put about 4 of the 6-8" circle ones like the Russian Bench ones you used before on 1 cardboard backer.. Leave a 4-6" gap between them.. My board was 19" W x 31" H that the local range supplies.. I'll be sticking with 200 yards and get that '6x6' before I go back to try another 300 - 400 yard test.. I may grab 1 box of the Hornady 168 A-Max and report back about 200 yard 'groups'.. Still got about 480 rounds of the Tula to play with.. Lol.. Albert Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cw3sting 12 Posted September 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2010 Another piece of data that might prove useful. The attached image is a scope click grid based on 1/4 MOA clicks, or 1/4 inch clicks at 100 yard scopes. As far as I can tell, it's accurate. Enjoy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted September 2, 2010 Report Share Posted September 2, 2010 For the Bushnell BDC scope I have (with site in at 100 yards) and its 308 cam/turrent in place: 0 Clicks is 100 yard setting. 3 Clicks up to 150 yard. 8 Clicks up to 200 yards 13 Clicks up to 250 yards 19 Clicks up to 300 yards 26 Clicks up to 350 yards 33 Clicks up to 400 yards 37 Clicks up to 425 yards 42 Clicks up to 450 yards This scope is 1/4" adjustment also.. This may also help some others.. Al Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cw3sting 12 Posted September 6, 2010 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2010 300 yard trials - 201000905 Hits Group cartridge 4 - 8.25" Federal GMM 168gr BTHP 4 - 5.00" Radway Green milsurp 5 - 5.25" Hornady .308 WIN, 168gr A-Max 3 - 5.88" HSM Trophy Gold .308 WIN 185gr Berger Hunting VLD BTHP 4 - 5.13" Hornady SUPERFORMANCE .308 WIN 178gr BTHP Match 5 - 8.75" Black Hills .308 WIN Match, 175gr HP-Moly 4 - 8.63" American Eagle 7.62mm, 168gr OTM 1 - N/A - Hornady .308 WIN, 155gr A-Max 4 - 5.00" Winchester 7.62mm, 147gr. FMJ Weapon: Saiga 16in .308 Converted (no accuracy work other than the FCG) Tasco gas piston Dinzag FCG Tasco T6 Stock Tasco Intrafuse Tri-rail Forearm Hogue Grip Black Jack Recoil Buffer UTG Leapers 5th Gen Scope Mount Leapers Accushot SCP3-416AOMD Scope Standard 8Rnd factory magazine Conditions: Caldwell Lead Sled Solo Rifle Shooting Rest Test Date: 20100905 Temperature: 91F Barometer: 30.06 Wind: 6 - 15 mph from 090 relative (right to left) Range: 300 yards Moderate mirage effect Observations: Still struggling with getting used to the Lead Sled and coping with contact lens problems. Nonetheless, reasonable results were obtained. The 168gr Hornady A-Max still proves to be a consistent grouper. Cartridge length and bullet shape are critical to selection of an accurate round in the Saiga. In addition to the gas operation and barrel length considerations, the Saiga .308 is tough on bullet tips which leads to erratic grouping. Horizontal spread and missing flyers can be attributed to wind. Remember, a 10 mph breeze can send you 7+ inches sideways at 300 yards. Photos attached. Group 1: Group 2: Group 3: Group 4: Group 5: Group 6: Group 7: Group 9: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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