Modification to use circle 10s?

[GoinSideways 0]

So before I put my dremel to my rifle (saiga .223 convert) to modify it to take Bulgarian Circle 10s, I want to make sure exactly what I need to do. I have a bunch of questions, lol. Oh ya, and yes, i'm putting in a bullet guide before/right after I do this.

 

I'll number my questions to make them more easier to answer

 

1. All that is needed to make these mags fit is to grind down the tab in the mag well bit by bit until they slide in, correct?

2. If so, will the surefire and stock 10 round mags I have still fit? Will they be too loose, or just slightly loose but still usable?

3. Would it be better to just file the mags instead of taking metal off the gun?

4. Will this procedure make most military mags compatible with the gun, or does this only work for circle 10s?

5. Do I have to worry about machining down the bottom of the trunnion to compensate for the high lugs(?) on the mag? Or is this only for other types of mags?

 

 

Thanks!

[paprotective 362]

You will notice the 223 Saiga has an 'intradiction' tab near the REAR of the magwell opening.. (little thingy sticking out into the well area).. That also needs to be removed to run COMBLOC mags..

 

Others will have more info.. hang in there.

 

 

Al

Edited August 28, 2010 by YWHIC

[rob-cubed 74]

The .223 Saiga is the only caliber I don't own, but I can answer a few of your questions...

 

2) Once you modify the gun and add a feed ramp, the taller front lug on the factory mags will keep them from locking in place. I've modified factory 5.45 mags to work in a converted Saiga by cutting the front lug down so it clears under the feed ramp. However, on the 5.45s there is no need to file the rear mag catch down like there is on other Saigas. Play at the rear can cause misfeeds, so I'd simply sell the factory mags.

 

3) However, I'm not a fan of modifying the rear mag lug. You should modify the catch on the gun to bring it into spec. You only have to do it once, as opposed to multiple times on different mags.

 

4) This should make most military mags compatible--Wiegers, Romanians, etc.

[jimdigriz 580]

So before I put my dremel to my rifle (saiga .223 convert) to modify it to take Bulgarian Circle 10s, I want to make sure exactly what I need to do. I have a bunch of questions, lol. Oh ya, and yes, i'm putting in a bullet guide before/right after I do this.

 

I'll number my questions to make them more easier to answer

 

1. All that is needed to make these mags fit is to grind down the tab in the mag well bit by bit until they slide in, correct?

2. If so, will the surefire and stock 10 round mags I have still fit? Will they be too loose, or just slightly loose but still usable?

3. Would it be better to just file the mags instead of taking metal off the gun?

4. Will this procedure make most military mags compatible with the gun, or does this only work for circle 10s?

5. Do I have to worry about machining down the bottom of the trunnion to compensate for the high lugs(?) on the mag? Or is this only for other types of mags?

 

 

Thanks!

 

Some guns will need only #1, others will need more effort to make the circle 10s fit. Mine needed filing on the center bar as well, and I STILL had to alter the mags (by filing down the rear locking tab and the very back of the feed lips). #1 will have to be done at the minimum. I also use Orlites and Galil steel mags, which still fit, but be careful not to grind the interdiction table beyond being flush with the rest of the mag well, or other mags may not work.

[TacSat 90]

What Jim said plus. there is alot of variation on the length of the rear tab on circ 10's used mic on all of mine to make the same. plus the center bar needed alittle taken off. Dont make the same mistake i made take everything apart to see if the mag hits that center pin. did not figure that one out for a good half hour.

[nalioth 405]

Due to the vagaries of manufacturing, everything that has been written in this thread may not be necessary.

 

#1 is most likely to be needed, though (but not with poly Galil mags)

[russiangunrunner 10]

on mine, I didn't need to grind down the locking tab at all, but the trunnion needs to be shaved under the locking lugs to make the circle 10 mags work, and after you install the bullet guide, the factory mag won't work, BUT its an easy fix to make it shaped just like the circle 10 mags you're putting in... then u have a 10rd for whatever.

[zero2epiphany 4]

I went with mods to the magazines over mods to the gun. dinzag has a very usefull .pdf file on various options you can use. Oh and surefires are not going to work with the bullet guide without some sort of modification and of course may be to loose. Also you may or may not need to slightly round the bottom edge of your bolt, it at a very sharp 90 degree angle and might (on mine did) jam up on the ammo while feeding rounds. Steel cased ammo it would usually feed but with puuting a big ole nick in the casing, brass ammo the bolt would try and shave the top of the round and jam up every 3rd round. Simply rounding that bottom corner ever so slighty stopped that from happening.

[GoinSideways 0]

Wow, ok, thanks for the replys.

 

So this is how far I can get the mag in until it stops, and I'm assuming its the rear locking lug (???) that is getting stuck on the mag release. This means that the lug needs to be filed down right? Or is there some other mysterious thing that is stopping the mag?

 

 

 

[TacSat 90]

nothing mysterious. right below the mag catch you will see a metal tab that needs to be filed down.

nalioth link....

 

if after filling that down it still will not go look down with the dust cover off and bolt carrier out and see if it is hitting the pin/bar in the middle. alittle may need to be taken off there. the mag catch tab on the mag may be to long as well. just got 6 mags myself and few needed the tabs filled down a hair.

[russiangunrunner 10]

how new is your rifle? it could be your trunnion, mine was doing the same thing....

[GoinSideways 0]

Its very new, like 3ish months old. And as of right now i don't think the metal tab is the problem because the mag catch tab hasn't even got to the tab yet. Look at the pictures, that's as far as i can push it in before it jams, and won't go any further. Could this be caused from the mag lugs? Or is this just a problem of the mag catch tab being too long?

[russiangunrunner 10]

trunnion. compare the saiga and bulgy mags side by side and you'll see a diff in the height of the area right behind the feed ramp but in front of the feed lips... the factory mag and the bulgy mag have a 1mm diff.... and this 1mm of extra material on the bulgy mags won't let the mag rock in..... compare the mag you're trying to fit with one that you haven't tried to use yet, you'll see where the pressure from the trunnion is marking your mag.....

 

i shaved 1 mm off the bottom of my locking lugs and everything went smoothly.... i didn't shave too much, so the mags are still a tight fit, but its ok.

[jimdigriz 580]

Its very new, like 3ish months old. And as of right now i don't think the metal tab is the problem because the mag catch tab hasn't even got to the tab yet. Look at the pictures, that's as far as i can push it in before it jams, and won't go any further. Could this be caused from the mag lugs? Or is this just a problem of the mag catch tab being too long?

 

I had the same problem. The tab needed to be filed down.

 

It should be apparent what the deal is if you'll remove the top cover, bolt, and bolt carrier, and look out it from multiple angles.

 

I wouldn't even consider removing anything from the front trunnion. It might make it difficult to run other kinds of mags.

[russiangunrunner 10]

I wouldn't even consider removing anything from the front trunnion. It might make it difficult to run other kinds of mags.

 

 

 

pretty good point.... trying to replace destroyed material is impossible...

[GoinSideways 0]

OK, so I took a closer look, and the mags are hitting the pin/bar/whateverthehellitis, so I ground down a bit of the feed lips, and that got it a little more in. However, it then got jammed on the mag lugs (i think), so I ground down those a bit, but then the tab came into play.

 

At this point i feel like it would almost be better to just make mag mods instead of touching the gun, because even if I do grind down the tab, i'll still have to do a bunch of grinding on the mags to get them to work. SO, if i was to grind down the back side of the mag to clear the tab, is this going to screw up the integrity of the mag, or should it be just fine?

 

Also, i pulled my bullet guide from dinzag out of its baggy, and it seems that it is too wide for the place its supposed to go in. The walls on either side of the slot are slanted in the gun, so the guide will only sit straight if it is slightly elevated. I'm assuming its not supposed to be elevated right? Is the grinder the answer here?

[jimdigriz 580]

At this point i feel like it would almost be better to just make mag mods instead of touching the gun, because even if I do grind down the tab, i'll still have to do a bunch of grinding on the mags to get them to work. SO, if i was to grind down the back side of the mag to clear the tab, is this going to screw up the integrity of the mag, or should it be just fine?

 

It may not be possible to get this to work ONLY by modifying the mag. Grinding down the interdiction tab is a modification that - if you don't grind down past flush with the rest of the magwell - should have no effect on any other mags. In other words, it's a safe mod. I wouldn't blame you if you didn't want to mod the gun past that.

[zero2epiphany 4]

It is totally possible to mod just the mag and not the gun. I have 2 bulgarian mags Ive done this with no mods to weapon other than rounding the bottom of bolt. This is where I got the info to do it. My link You need to make the front geomatry exactly like the factory or surefire mags along with very slight filing around the rear mag catch of the magazine. It must be remembered that like the US, russia has some wierd firearm laws. The saiga has been designed not to use military 5.56 mags. In addition, the circle 10's are really meant for bulgarian military export 5.56's aks. Its simply that they are good mags that can be made to work with a saiga. But the 1st one you do is just a pain to figure out how to get it to work.

 

Im begining to really wonder if earlier models didnt have the crazy amount of extra material in their locking lugs, ie. if ishmash was using ak101 trunions and not some crazy saiga only one. That would explain why some folks just needed to remove a little bit of material around the mag well.

 

Of and you wont screw anything up removing material around the rear mag catch or the front of the magazine. Both these areas have steal reinforcments molded into the polymer. Just go slow and check often.

Edited August 30, 2010 by flashburn

[jimdigriz 580]

It is totally possible to mod just the mag and not the gun.

 

In certain rifles. It would not have worked for mine.

[zero2epiphany 4]

It is totally possible to mod just the mag and not the gun.

 

In certain rifles. It would not have worked for mine.

 

Fair enough, crazy saigas

[jimdigriz 580]

It is totally possible to mod just the mag and not the gun.

 

In certain rifles. It would not have worked for mine.

 

Fair enough, crazy saigas

 

The lack of standardization/predictability for Saiga .223s in regard to magazines is why I say that anyone wanting an AK in that caliber should simply buy an SLR106.

[GoinSideways 0]

Aight, well I got them to work, finally. Got rid of the interdiction tab, or most of it. Then had to grind a bit off the back of the feed lips, then had to grind down the mag lugs, then a tad bit from the back of the mag. Two of them fit pretty solid, but one is kinda wobbly and has a fair amount of play side to side, but I have no idea as to why. W/e. Definitely a huge PITA. Thought that was going to be way easier than it was, hah.

[zero2epiphany 4]

the wobble means you removed a tad to much material somewhere, nothing to worry about really. Should work fine.....mine do....one with alot of wobble. Alot of the side to side play is simply the saigas mag well is alot wider than the bularian 5.56 aks. On my "test" mag I jb welded a blob of crap on the sides so the mag makes contact with the well. Looks kind of silly, but to more wobble. Not really needed, but its a test mag after all.

[russiangunrunner 10]

wow.... i'm sorry man...

 

mine was nowhere near that much work... the trunnion was oddball and i had at it... but thats it.