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Crazy idea: adding ports or enlarging them...


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on an gun who's ports are already correct factory spec? I was wondering if anybody intentionally over gassed their gun this way to maximize performance with the worst of the worst ammo. Let's assume that the gun is correctly ported from the factory, and the bolt assembly is unpolished, and the gas plug settings were carefully managed (GasFixr), or the new auto plug was in play.....would adding the port or enlarging the existing ones overcome the unpolished factory bolt/carrier in terms of available energy to get the job done?

 

Been thinking of doing this myself....but it seems kind of brute force, or a last resort kind of thing to squeeze the maximum amount of energy out of crap ammo...

 

What say you all?

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IMVHO......

 

No. I wouldn't over gas a gun on purpose. You'll add more debris into the gas block which will muck things up faster. If you "forget" to adjust your gas plug, then you'll end up beating up the rear trunnion. Not worth the effort, provided the gun is cycling Federal Bulk (which I consider the minimum ammo for this gun.)

 

I can think of NO GOOD REASON to want to shoot anything less than #7.5 birdshot at 1200 fps anyway. It's the minimum load I would shoot for anything worth spending money on.

Edited by rjrivero
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IMVHO......

 

I can think of NO GOOD REASON to want to shoot anything less than #7.5 birdshot at 1200 fps anyway. It's the minimum load I would shoot for anything worth spending money on.

Well, here's a good one...

 

Make a crowd control S-12 running a bean bag filled 30 round drum.

It would be great for prison riots & generally the perfect tool to move large groups of people quickly & motivate compliance while still employing "less lethal" ammo.

The psychological impact would be astounding.

 

But as for overgassing just for shits & grins, bad idea.

Tune the gun, polish & profile a LITTLE, but hit all friction bearing surfaces FIRST.

Then go up a little, but there's no great reason to overgas a lot.

 

I was talking to forum member Physicsnerd about ways to measure the force & effect of the different aftermarket plugs compared to the standard factory plug on all levels of performance, primarily to see how much one could overgass a gun & bring it back to factory specs with a aftermarket plug & he had a great idea...

A high speed camera monitoring the differing speeds of the carrier cycling, would be easier & more available than an accelerometer.

 

I think this would be the logical next step in research & development to make these the most versitile, yet RELIABLE (including not blowing apart carriers & pushrods) in the world.

If I could only afford one of those real high speed cameras like that one guy who just did the slow motion pics...

That would be some damn valuable R&D. :wub:

Edited by Paulyski
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What is the point? If your gun runs Federal bulk pack, shoot Federal bulk pack! That winchester crap isn't even $2 cheaper! It would be like lowering the compression and boost on a turbo Porsche just to be able to run 87 octane!

Actually... If you're buying at wally world, four 25-packs of federal #6 shot is a couple bucks CHEAPER than 100rd "value-packs" of both federal & winchester.

 

But the ability to run real shit ammo would be cool if the SHTF & you needed to be able to use anything you found both to stop threats & to put dinner on the table.

 

3 ports at 3/32 (.09375) & a minimally profiled, nicely polished bolt & carrier have me shooting winchester flawlessly with the utmost reliability out of a 19".

 

A high speed camera monitoring the differing speeds of the carrier cycling, would be easier & more available than an accelerometer.

You would have to paint stripes on your bolt carrier. :lolol:

Yeah... So.

My carrier is already bare matte steel.

It's tool steel & doesn't rust easily.

Paint pen stripes come off really easily with Dremel prep pads & it re-mattens the finish.

Edited by Paulyski
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No, I wouldn't over gas my gun for no real reason but this thread made a good point that I haven't heard anyone bring up. With more than a few self regulating plugs on the horizon, how will they handle debris? Larger ports typically equal more crap in the gas block-where will it go in a self regulating system and will it effect the mechanisms ability to self regulate? The Tromix plug will not be self regulating, but it does use a waste gate design that may also blow some of the crap out of the gas block. Food for thought...?

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4 @ .093" and do not forget to pay attention to what gas setting your weapon is on before firing it (elementary). IMO, if you can't remember to check something that simple, you shouldn't have a firearm. It's kinda like checking to see if it is loaded....

 

For example:

 

Oh my!!..... there's buckshot in there..... I should use setting 1.

So complex :rolleyes:

Edited by evlblkwpnz
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No, I wouldn't over gas my gun for no real reason but this thread made a good point that I haven't heard anyone bring up. With more than a few self regulating plugs on the horizon, how will they handle debris? Larger ports typically equal more crap in the gas block-where will it go in a self regulating system and will it effect the mechanisms ability to self regulate? The Tromix plug will not be self regulating, but it does use a waste gate design that may also blow some of the crap out of the gas block. Food for thought...?

Good point.

 

I guess I'll do what I usually do.

Let all the early adopters be the guinea pigs before I get one.

 

Thinking about how full of shit my block has ALWAYS gotten, even with 3 undersized ports at the old 4 port size, Your post makes me wonder how dependability will be.

 

I KNOW that my factory plug won't foul & my factory puck knocks all the crap out of it's own way.

 

I'd like to see these self regulators take 500 to 1000 rounds before a cleaning & still fire everything correctly.

 

 

Once again, good point.

Edited by Paulyski
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What is the point? If your gun runs Federal bulk pack, shoot Federal bulk pack! That winchester crap isn't even $2 cheaper! It would be like lowering the compression and boost on a turbo Porsche just to be able to run 87 octane!

 

Turbo equipped cars already have low compression, so that they CAN run 87 octane...

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I'd like to see these self regulators take 500 to 1000 rounds before a cleaning & still fire everything correctly.

I'm very interested in seeing how many rounds I can push through it.

 

With my 4 hole gun I could get about 600 rounds of federal birdshot through it until the puck got stuck, but buckshot would still cycle.

 

Turbo equipped cars already have low compression, so that they CAN run 87 octane...

I'm surprised you felt the need to comment on this.

 

Turbo and Supercharged cars are considered to be "premium octane" and most are posted as "91 octane minimum" in the owners manual. Yes in a pinch they can idle and cruise at light load just fine on low, hot, fast burning octane because of the low static compression, but if you boost it they will likely start detonating.

 

As an example I happen to have a 2003 Mustang Cobra supplement on my desk.

 

Sorry for taking the thread off topic. I'll never mention octane on this forum again. :rolleyes:

post-9800-096063200 1283173790_thumb.jpg

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one of the things I've seen posted by one of the well know builders on this forum is don't enlarge the ports if you need to do anything to add gas is add a 4th port, and a small one at that. I'd read up before any change to the ports and if you don't need to do it would most likely be best. IMHO

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I really am curios as to what type of large matter is getting through the fewer, but larger holes that won't get through the added smaller holes?

 

Do some people have small shot backing up & getting through the ports? I would think that the shot got by the ports before the gas & burnt powder was able to enter

 

All my wadding is always in tact inside & in front of the trees that I mount my targets on, so I don't think it's that. Burnt wadding may make it through, but burnt wadding would be somewhat liquid at high temps, so it can get through at nearly any size.

 

Last time I checked area is area & if you have equal open area & tiny particles are what enters the system, there wouldn't be MUCH difference if both configurations have the same area & the debris is much smaller than the smallest port. :unsure:

 

Not trying to knock anyone's teachings or hypotheses, but I always like to pick at theroy of opperation so I can have as complete of an understanding as possible. :unsure:

This landed me in the principal's office MANY times as a child when the teacher felt I was undermining him.

I guess it was easier to remove the question & call me a smart-ass than to actually find the information & give the most accurate answer.

 

 

 

ETA; just out of curiosity, are they supercharging or turbo charging stock mustangs now? Or just the aftermarket builds like Calloway?

 

BTW, not promoting using low octane on high performance cars. bad things can happen.

I bought my Towncar rather than the caddy even though I like the caddy better & it's faster (it can break 150. All engine with no mods). But the caddy requires high-test & I wanted to be as cheap as possible on gas. (I get 25+ on the highway @ 70 on low test.) I +'ed caged's post for the fact that he recognized that you must lower compression when turbo-charging.

"CAN" & "SHOULD" are 2 different subjects.

Edited by Paulyski
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I prefer to add a fourth port rather than open up the 3.

I don't like to open ports beyond .086"

Going above .086 is not really going to hurt anyting, but the larger you go, the more crap tends to build up in the gas block.

 

Tony

 

 

redfish28, You said your gun isn't severe... Before you remove your gas block and enlarge ports or add ports try contouring and polishing up some surfaces. If you can fire low brass from the hip out of a 20rd drum afterwards your probably good to go. There are a lot of other energy robing surface not mentioned as often. Does your bolt lock and unlock smoothly? When you pull your bolt carrier back is it chunky while unlocking the bolt? It should be nice and smooth. If it isn't you are losing MAJOR energy here alone.

 

Just because it appears the ports are covered doesn't mean they are. There is a beverled edge in the gas block to the barrel and ports. As long as the edge of the bevel isn't obsructing a port your not going to gain anything from enlarging the hole in the block itself. The beveled edge gives a much greater surface area for exit into chamber than the ports can put out... If you do take your block off you will see a circle of residue around the ports. If the edge of the residue circle isn't covering or partially covering one of the ports your good on the block itself. If a port is obstructed do like Cobra shows in the picture and enlarge the beveled edge to clear the port. Note the angle of his picture is from the underside, it is NOT the side you see while the block is on the gun and the edges of the through hole are still intact. If you absolutely feel you have to enlarge the hole in the block all the way through DO NOT cut into the back edge ( the edge you can look right at while looking into the block while on the gun). If you cut this area out you will increase the gas flow while using high brass ammo. Your plug is only so long... If you make the hole longer in the rear direction the plug won't be able to reach to cover it up and restrict it. That edge needs to stay intact. You will not gain anything from cutting it anyways so stay away.

 

If you do mess with the ports themselves listen to Tony and add an extra hole. Think of it this way... If you are straining sandy water through a screen but you want it to strain faster, do you make the holes bigger or do you add more holes? Add more holes... One extra will do just fine. Anymore and you very well may over gas your gun with low brass.

 

Also keep in mind... If you are enlarging ports to make up for a rough action... Once the gun breaks itself in you very well may have an over gassed gun. That is why you need to assure your problem isn't energy loss first instead of the lack of energy. Many increase energy to account for energy loss, and that isn't the way...

 

 

one of the things I've seen posted by one of the well know builders on this forum is don't enlarge the ports if you need to do anything to add gas is add a 4th port, and a small one at that. I'd read up before any change to the ports and if you don't need to do it would most likely be best. IMHO

based my reply on this, the other 2 gentlemen have a better knowledge of the system than I do.

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I greatly respect both Mike & tony's opinions. They've been doing this much longer than myself. Tony is world class & Mike has studied Russian blue prints & designs from what I understand.

 

I'm just curios if there's empirical evidence, or if this is simply theory & hypothesis.

 

If we're just throwing names to prove facts, rather than depending on empirical evidence, the official RAA warranty repair center & Izhmash engineers led by Mikhail Timofeyevich Kalashnikov seem to think 3 @ .093 are reliable.

 

 

ETA, like I said, not trying to argue or undermine anyone, just attempting to establish the most through understanding of theory of operation possible.

Edited by Paulyski
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Pauly all I know is if this is wrong I'm in good company as are you.

to me it makes sense so that's the theory I'm going with on this one.

or as the guy on mythbusters says "I reject your reality and insert my own.":lolol:

I tend to look into stuff too much & ask too many questions. ^_^

Life long issue.

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Part of the problem may be self induced by people enlarging or drilling additional holes that are not properly angled. I can see a port 90 degrees to the bore having more of a shaving effect than the OEM design. I was also always a bit curious if there's any dwell time advantage to the angled ports over a straight 90 (as usual I have more questions than answers). FWIW-to add to the octane side bar, I've seen pistons pretty much gone (as in melted out from the top down) from pre-ignition issues on high performance stuff, it's not pretty.

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