Stock S12 for home defense

[309MI 4]

Much as I hate for this to be the reason for joining, my home and family have recently come under direct attack,with my dog having been killed in my own driveway with a shotgun fired from down the road.

 

http://img.photobuck...un1/lady1-1.jpg

 

Hence, I have had to decide to severely upgrade my arsenal more suddenly than I can help.

I have chosen the Saiga 12 as my defensive shotgun (and Glock 30 for my defensive sidearm). I plan to pick mine up in the next day or so.

It will be stock (non modified) for the forseable future,as I will lack funds/time,etc. to do such things anytime soon.

 

Within those limitations, I am open to all suggestions or information I should know about for this arm. I am familiar with AK-47s and -74's,having had occasion to use them in combat,with exceptional results, during past military service. (No, I'll not be disclosing any details in that regard,for reasons I think most here will understand).The Saiga 12 I have had a chance to try out at a range some time back,in un-modified condition,and it seems to be a smart choice for this task.

 

I do plan to acquire some of the 12-round (or perhaps 10-round ,and the guy in the shop was mistaken?) spare mags for this weapon. That said what rounds are generally considered to be the most reliable (feed/cycle/function/eject)in this gun, and ,of course,the most effective as a defensive arm? I do not plan on using it to hunt,or shoot targets,or participate in any competitions etc. This is strictly for use in defense of the home against multiple,armed humans.

 

My tactical situation is as follows: (Threat-proven,documented-not theoretical- is 4-6 armed persons with handguns,AR's and shotguns)

Engagement ranges from the front door/porch to the legal edge of my front perimeter is 40 paces./roughly 18-20 meters.Beyond that range,and off-property (road/lot across street) extends out to 150meters,and is free of other residences and personnel.

Flank engagement ranges are as few as 3 meters to the security fencing,but heavy brush/forrest terrain beyond that edge of the perimeter. (it's a rural area).

Rear engagement ranges are roughly 15 meters to rear fencing,but a home with occupants are downrange beyond that @ approx 50meters.

Interior ranges vary from room to room,of course,but the main hall running the length of the home, is roughly 45 feet.

 

Any valid suggestions for type/power of 12. 00 or 000 rounds for this task?

Edited September 9, 2010 by Paraclete

[JamesLi 47]

Before anything I've got to ask. Where the hell do you live?

[chevyman097 2,579]

You have have already and this may be redundant. But before anything else I would get anything and everything on paper. Get the Law involved! anything on paper will be in your favor if you do have to defend your family! As long as you show you tried.

[swells08 128]

Laws vary from area to area. I would probably try videoing illegal activity and ensure license number of vehicles used are reported to allow for LEO involvement. If you are threatened by an armed assailint on your property or in your home lethal force is justified. The Saiga 12 is gonna take good care of you, be sure to test fire or target shoot to ensure function with ammo choice. It also helps if you define your property lines and post signs. 00 Buck shot good for 150lb deer at 30 yards definately do the job on threats.

[309MI 4]

Ty for the responses.

I live in a rural area in Florida. Dead-end street with only about 6 homes on it-all along one side of the road.

Case is being investigated,with 4-6 "persons of interest" declared by cops. Not enough evidence yet to arrest them-supposedly-despite all having a past record of having tortured/killed pets in the area,and all being prime suspects in armed home-invasion/burglaries in the last few months.

Everything is formally documented,and cases filed with Police,PETA,ASPCA and the local media.

The rest of us on the block are in the process of organizing to monitor these clowns every where they go, to include-at our own cost-the installation of surveillance cameras at our homes,and along our road.

 

 

It is believed that they killed my dog,because it was a security obstacle to their breaking in here-which is the ONLY house which has not been robbed/invaded by these clowns yet.

In Florida,this is a felony.(killing my dog)

In the State of Florida, it is a 3rd Degree Felony- Cruelty to Animals,resulting in death.

828.12. Cruelty to animals

 

(1) A person who unnecessarily overloads, overdrives, torments, deprives of necessary sustenance or shelter, or unnecessarily mutilates, or kills any animal, or causes the same to be done, or carries in or upon any vehicle, or otherwise, any animal in a cruel or inhumane manner, is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or by a fine of not more than $5,000, or both.

 

(2) A person who intentionally commits an act to any animal which results in the cruel death, or excessive or repeated infliction of unnecessary pain or suffering, or causes the same to be done, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.

 

(3) A veterinarian licensed to practice in the state shall be held harmless from either criminal or civil liability for any decisions made or services rendered under the provisions of this section. Such a veterinarian is, therefore, under this subsection, immune from a lawsuit for his or her part in an investigation of cruelty to animals.

[chevyman097 2,579]

Ty for the responses.

I live in a rural area in Florida. Dead-end street with only about 6 homes on it-all along one side of the road.

Case is being investigated,with 4-6 "persons of interest" declared by cops. Not enough evidence yet to arrest them-supposedly-despite all having a past record of having tortured/killed pets in the area,and all being prime suspects in armed home-invasion/burglaries in the last few months.

Everything is formally documented,and cases filed with Police,PETA,ASPCA and the local media.

The rest of us on the block are in the process of organizing to monitor these clowns every where they go, to include-at our own cost-the installation of surveillance cameras at our homes,and along our road.

 

 

It is believed that they killed my dog,because it was a security obstacle to their breaking in here-which is the ONLY house which has not been robbed/invaded by these clowns yet.

In Florida,this is a felony.(killing my dog)

In the State of Florida, it is a 3rd Degree Felony- Cruelty to Animals,resulting in death.

828.12. Cruelty to animals

 

(1) A person who unnecessarily overloads, overdrives, torments, deprives of necessary sustenance or shelter, or unnecessarily mutilates, or kills any animal, or causes the same to be done, or carries in or upon any vehicle, or otherwise, any animal in a cruel or inhumane manner, is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or by a fine of not more than $5,000, or both.

 

(2) A person who intentionally commits an act to any animal which results in the cruel death, or excessive or repeated infliction of unnecessary pain or suffering, or causes the same to be done, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.

 

(3) A veterinarian licensed to practice in the state shall be held harmless from either criminal or civil liability for any decisions made or services rendered under the provisions of this section. Such a veterinarian is, therefore, under this subsection, immune from a lawsuit for his or her part in an investigation of cruelty to animals.

 

I would not suggest following them EVERY where they go. That could come back to get you, or be seen as stalking. Now as for having a neighborhood watch and make sure you know whats going on, I say go for it! great idea.

 

Now that you do have documentation of this activity and if they are known for criminal activity. I wish you good luck. Stay safe. get those cameras. Get lighting! lighting is important. Get another dog, a loud one. Sorry to hear about the loss btw. And make sure the animal is limited to your property only, If it is not on your property and it is harmed it could be turned on you as self defense.

 

As far as the saiga 12. I cant help you much with that conversion as I stick to the saiga rifles for now. lol

 

Im sure you will find the help here you need.

 

I would also suggest if you havnt already....train everyone in your home to use a fire arm and be proficient with it.

 

Simple fences can be built pretty cheap. I would do so, I have recently as well. Any defined property line in also a + for you against trespassers.

 

Also, if an altercation does happen, be understood that the weapon involved will likely be confiscated pending investigation. Have a backup. You dont want to be left unarmed.

 

 

LOCK YOUR DOORS AND WINDOWS!! lol < obvious I know.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Chevyman097

[HarvKY 72]

IMO you need to learn more about those who are a threat to you.

 

Even loosely organized gangs can become pretty sophisticated. They can get what we can get usually - and bad guys dont care to obtain/use illegal weapons, etc as well.

 

When you were discussing the situation and usage of your shotgun the first thing that came to mind is whether they could be wearing body armor. Perhaps talk to local people in the know, including cops off-duty, to get some feedback on what youre facing and some options for dealing with it.

 

Good luck,

Harv

[bigsal 757]

Move. Avoid violence that puts your family at risk. "4-6 armed persons with handguns,AR's and shotguns" sounds like bad odds to me. Also, something about this thread doesn't feel right....

Edited September 9, 2010 by bigsal

[loki0629 55]

If you are going to leave it stock, try and get the skeleton stock for it. The standard rifle buttstock really limits some of the things you can do with the weapon. I would even go so far as to suggest the bolt on grip and stock combos that don't require moving the trigger assembly forward.

 

A brand spanking new S-12 needs to be worked out of the box. You're going to need to invest time and ammo to break it in, and then to see what type of rounds it prefers. An S-12 is also not like the AK rifles in that there is a gas regulator with two settings for the shotgun. Setting 1 for high power stuff (oo buck, slugs) and setting 2 for the standard stuff (bird loads, target loads, etc). Unless you get an aftermarket regulator knob, you'll need some sort of tool to switch between the two settings. There is one included when you buy the S-12 but the standard knob doesn't allow you to easily switch gas settings. The S-12 mags rock and lock in the same way as AK mags but trying to load on a closed bolt takes lots of practice to get it down smoothly. There is a bolt hold open tab for the shotgun and if you lock the bolt to the rear before inserting a mag it is a lot easier. If you are going to get higher cap mags, make sure you test them thoroughly. You can use cheap ammo to do that. I don't have much experience with aftermarket mags since I live in NJ and am limited to 5rd mags anyway. I do know that you can get a 20rd drums as well as 12 round ones. I think the higher cap stick mags are 10 rounders but I could be wrong.

 

Lastly, if there is even a remote possibility that someone else other than you might need to use the weapon (and I'm thinking in the very short term here), I would NOT get the S-12. I would get a used pump shotgun. For the price of the s-12 you can probably get two Remington 870's or something similar and a decent amount of ammo.

 

That's all I can think of from the top of my head. I've probably missed something though.

 

My condolences for the loss of your dog. She probably was one of the reasons that your house has not been hit. You're going to want to get a replacement as soon as possible.

 

Edited to add:

For my stock weapon and using stock mags, I highly recommend the Federal Premium Tactical Law Enforcement ammunition. It is a 2 3/4" OO shell and I use it on setting 2 (1145 FPS). It feeds flawlessly at that setting in my gun, patterns well to 25 yards, and is very, very controllable.

Edited September 9, 2010 by GunnyR

[chevyman097 2,579]

Move. Avoid violence that puts your family at risk. "4-6 armed persons with handguns,AR's and shotguns" sounds like bad odds to me. Also, something about this thread doesn't feel right....

 

This thread did seem strange, but he have had a lot of that lately......

[bigsal 757]

deleted.

Edited September 9, 2010 by bigsal

[chevyman097 2,579]

deleted.

 

responding to this will land me in jail...

 

I almost said/.....uh dont give anyone ideas....them good thinking.

 

Id say keep it to the legal advice

 

And Ive been one to call others paranoid....now I sound like them.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Chevyman097

[bigsal 757]

deleted.

 

responding to this will land me in jail...

 

I almost said/.....uh dont give anyone ideas....them good thinking.

 

Id say keep it to the legal advice

 

And Ive been one to call others paranoid....now I sound like them.

 

 

LOL! It just does not pass the smell test bro. I think its safer to answer questions regarding hypothetical situations rather than framing answers as real world advise. Actionable advise..... Anyway its food for thought.

Edited September 9, 2010 by bigsal

[swells08 128]

I know focusing on non violence would seem to be the best way to do it, this is not SHTF yet...but if they move on you and it happens better to be prepared. As I said, define your property line use signs, and in most states it is justified to use force to protect yourself or family from a threat. Just if you can understand it's you against four obviously organized well armed bandits, having a gang of your own would seem fishy and taking on 4 by yourself might be a bad idea. I have done home security set-ups with 4 cameras for under $200 bucks though...I agree about the dog and fence, plus signs and maybe a large NRA Sticker, the neighborhood watch thing is what we got where I live. Caught some dumb teens bustin up cars for cell phone chargers...seriously there ten bucks go buy one...

[G O B 3,516]

As an exercise in the hypothetical defense situation you have described: You would be best served with an MD-20 drum filled with 00 buck. This will give you the best odds of success if the encounter becomes a reality.

What are you doing for security when you are NOT home? How are you securing your firepower so that it cannot be stolen and USED AGAINST YOU? I strongly advise you to get 3 Doberman's NOW for alarm/deterrent purposes. The best result for any violent encounter is to prevent it in the first place.

[309MI 4]

Ty.everyone for any and all advice-for or against. What I need is an honest assessment from actual S12 owners/users,and I do appreciate it.

This situation I am facing is not the least hypothetical or theoretical. It is a documented,factual and on-going/escalating situation in my immediate area.

This situation is not being handled effectively by law enforcement @ any level. Our PD out here,when it even bothers to respond, is amateur hour from hell.

The entire neighborhood is outraged,and is coming together to organize mutual defenses, within the law,against our common threat.

The threat situation is very recent-within the last month or so,this group of punks moved in from some other part of town,to live with a deadbeat father who has been a resident here for some years.

Prior to their arrival,this was a place you wouldnt have thought twice about leaving your home wide-open,etc. There was literally ZERO crime activity of anything like this sort.

Most of the residents in this area are elderly,retirees. My wife and I are,i think, the youngest couple out here. (40's). Most of the other residents are folks who are living on lands that have been in their family for generations.In the case of one next door neighbor,for over 150 yrs.

As for the more passive defenses-all the properties out here are clearly defined-with fencing all-around. In my case 8ft privacy fencing at my rear and flanks, and shorter,chain-link w/gate at front.

Signs are being posted. Lighting-(in very short supply out here) is being upgraded as we speak. I have,today, a crew coming out to install a full-blown security system on the property-to include more lights,cameras,sensors and alarms w/24-7 monitoring service.

I have a closet in a spare room/office,which I have long since converted into a secure storage room,and will be using that to secure the weapons when not home/in use,etc.

Further,one of the neighbors is on the city council.He is petitioning the city to install additional streetlights,and trying to arrange funding (offering even some of his own) to secure video surveillance cameras for the street itself.

The problem,in the meantime,remains. And it is a problem facing everyone else out here,unless or until Law Enforcement can be pressured enough to put down their donuts for 4 minutes.

The other residents and I are united in this effort.And are seeking out every available,lawful means of putting things to rights,and protecting ourselves.None of us are willing to tolerate this place becoming some sort of gangland ghetto.

 

To the original,gun issue, I chose the Saiga after comparing it to the Remington 870 and 1187, the Mossberg 930 and a few others. Normally I'd probably prefer a pump,myself.But I also must consider the need to have one hand free,or account for the possibility of one hand or arm being disabled-unlike Rambo movies and the like, I dont see trying to cycle and fire a pump gun one-handed as entirely likely.

I will get plenty of buck loads of different types,and spend some time breaking it in/etc. I will also be spending quiet a bit of range time with the .45. (the place Im buying all this from offers 30-days free range time at their place)

Im no stranger to firearms,or to armed combat.I've handled myself well before,and intend to now.And have always been an above-par shot with just about everything I've had occasion to use.

And I think this combination will serve as a considerable upgrade from a single-shot .410 and a Raven .25....Prior to this recent situation,that was more than sufficient for anything I was likely to encounter out here...or so I once thought.

[309MI 4]

As for other dogs, I do have a Doberman. Had in fact just acquired it a day or so before this happened.She is being trained appropriately,with guard/defense very much in mind now.

[going12220 125]

[309MI 4]

That's the thing though. Even if retreat were an option for me right now-it isnt-I'd not be inclined to do so. The area itself is a fine one,a place I finally found to call home, after years of living in urban/city areas,and watching those go down the tubes. Im done re-locating, or moving away from trash. I refuse ,now, to be driven off any more.

In past locations,the situation was the reverse-the bad guys severely out-numbered the good. Here it's the other way around. Bad as they are, the bad guys are severely out-numbered,on the ground.

Either way. Here I make my stand. No more moving away.No more scampering off like a pack of Frenchmen at the first time someone says BOO!

I choose for better,or for worse, to mark my AO, foritfy it the best I can, and equip myself as well as I can,should the "soft" defenses not deter or prevent the worst-case.

If I have to die defending this place,then fine-they can bury me in my front yard beneath one of my big old Oaks.

 

Further,I find the whole concept of retreat somewhat sickening. It's entirely too wide-spread of a mindset in this Country these days.It sends the wrong message to folks like this, and frankly, I feel it only encourages more and more of them. Too many communities across this country have caved in to bad elements over the years.And the only thing that has done is to create more and more situations like that. Folks like this learn all the wrong lessons from it-that they can move into an area,rape pillage and plunder it-and if they act tough enough, the locals will tuck their tales and run-leaving them un-opposed.

Wrong Answer.

When I was a boy growing up in an area not far from here-and not at all unlike this area (one reason I love it so much) if things like this had started taking place out there,you'd soon find folks swinging from the trees by their necks, or turning up as the bowel movements of the Alligators.Such things dont happen any more,it seems. And some folks try to call that "progress"...I'm beginning to see that I dont quiet grasp that concept....that maybe the old hands had the right idea.

Not that Im indicating Ill do that, or advising anyone to do so,just pointing out that this was once the way such things were handled-and once they were handled-it was done with.No more silly stuff from bad elements.

I also spent the better part of 15 yrs in NY.Most of those in the years before Rudy came in and cleaned house. I saw entire neighborhoods that were almost totally under the control of a handful of bad folks. Living constantly in fear,and with no hope in sight. I also saw the results of what can be turned around,when someone with the balls to stand up and kick some backside rolls in and gets busy. I;ll take the Rudy days,thank you very much...

Edited September 9, 2010 by Paraclete

[tim2shu 48]

If u have other people in your home,have the first 2 or 3 rounds a lighter bird shot so u don't shoot thur walls and hit a family member

After that go for the gold!

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Good luck with your situation and I'm sorry to hear they got your dog. Sounds to me like you and the neighbors have done all you can to cover your asses with the local police. As long as you stay within your legal limits I wish you the best of luck dealing with these scum. It's sad that in today's "innocent until proven guilty" society, these types know how to take advantage of their so called "rights", and other good people suffer because of it, until someone has the balls to stand up to them and make it stop. All the gang activity in places it didn't used to happen is evidence of this, even here in my quiet little town. If everyone armed themselves and trained appropriately, the "bad guys" wouldn't be so damned bold to think they could intimidate people.

You have done what you can to alert the police of your problem. You have made an honest effort to secure your dwelling, and have teamed up with the neighbors. You have already lost one family member. You have made a good choice for a home defense weapon. My best advice to you concerning that weapon is to be damn sure you and your wife both spend some time with it and get to know it well. These guns are very effective as long as they are working correctly and you fully understand their abilities with specific ammo. They are usually pretty reliable with the kind of ammo you would use for what you are describing. Main thing to remember though, is in Russia they use more powerful ammo than the economy bulk pack, cheap crap available at Walmart and places like that. The guns are not really designed to cycle low powered ammo. They can easily be modified to cycle it well, but it's best to stick to magnums for awhile til the gun loosens up some, and you become more familiar with it. If you do get some bird shot then make sure it's got the power to cycle the action efficiently. I can't stress enough that you need to practice with it using various types of ammo, until you feel 100% confident in it's reliability. If buying an unmodified gun, and If you have a choice, buy an older model used S-12. You are more likely to get one that works better. That's just a simple fact. An older gun will have been shot more and is more likely to be "broken in" better, although I hate that term. Also be aware that they retooled at the factory a few years ago and since then they have been exporting a lot of guns with serious flaws. An older gun, preferably pre 2005 is a much better bet if you can find one being sold in classifieds, online auction, or in a pawn shop, if you want one that's more likely to work well right off the shelf. If you get the opportunity top examine the weapon before buying, it's important to unscrew the gas plug and inspect the gas ports drilled in the barrel. Ideally you want one with at least three holes, preferably 4 like the older guns had. (2000-2001 would be a good MFG date for this) You can tell the year of MFG by looking at the first two digits of the serial # (after the letter HO for example) and also stamped under the oval shaped Russian stamp on the left side, just in front of the optic rail.

 

*One very important thing to remember when considering mag choices and capacity*

The S-12 is imported as a "sporting firearm". It is only imported with a 5 rd mag. This is the maximum capacity you can legally use in that gun unless you spend a few more dollars on COMPLIANCE PARTS to bring it into 922R compliance, basically changing it to a US made firearm. You can't just slap a drum in there or a 12 rd mag (yes they have 12, 10, 8, 5, 2 round sticks, and even 10, 12, and 20 rd drums for these guns). After doing this you can use whatever capacity mags you want as long as they are legal in your state, and they are in Fla. If you are spending all that money on fortifying and securing the property, don't skimp out where it's most important...the firearm you will be depending on with your life, and lives of family and friends. Go ahead and get what it takes to convert the gun to a "US made" weapon so you are free to use whatever you want mag wise, and free from prosecution should anything bad happen and you end up using it to defend yourself. I don't think you want to pay the price for using an 'illegal" weapon in justifiable defense of life and property.

 

Good luck.

[swells08 128]

*One very important thing to remember when considering mag choices and capacity*

The S-12 is imported as a "sporting firearm". It is only imported with a 5 rd mag. This is the maximum capacity you can legally use in that gun unless you spend a few more dollars on COMPLIANCE PARTS to bring it into 922R compliance, basically changing it to a US made firearm. You can't just slap a drum in there or a 12 rd mag (yes they have 12, 10, 8, 5, 2 round sticks, and even 10, 12, and 20 rd drums for these guns). After doing this you can use whatever capacity mags you want as long as they are legal in your state, and they are in Fla. If you are spending all that money on fortifying and securing the property, don't skimp out where it's most important...the firearm you will be depending on with your life, and lives of family and friends. Go ahead and get what it takes to convert the gun to a "US made" weapon so you are free to use whatever you want mag wise, and free from prosecution should anything bad happen and you end up using it to defend yourself. I don't think you want to pay the price for using an 'illegal" weapon in justifiable defense of life and property.

 

Good luck.

That is a big and well stated point Cobra this guy should definately be sure not to commit a felony arms possesion in a justifiable defense scenerio...

[309MI 4]

Ty,cobra,good points all.

I do plan to spend as much time with it as possible in the coming days. There's a shotgun-only range less than a mile from me that I plan to become real familiar with.I will indeed be training the hell out of the wife on it.She's going to have one sore shoulder by the time Im done drilling her.

I might hold off on the hi-cap mags for it,as the ones the shop Im buying from are going for $70. I may instead-for now-just buy several more 5-rounders,and spend the rest on more ammo to break her in with,and getting accustomed to the reloading method on this thing.

I want to get the other conversions/mods eventually,but the funds simply arent going to be available soon enough.This purchase will be a RIGHT NOW need,unless/until this threat is resolved.I have one other shotgun on hand pulling this duty for the moment,and can fall back on it,if needed,but it is less than ideal for my tactical situation right now.This entire mess came-as they all too often do-entirely unexpectedly,so all of these purchases (security systems/lights,etc) are above and beyond for me right now. Im having to budget everything out across several needs.

Hopefully,apart from the break-in/training with this thing,I'll never have to make use of it for what I need it to do.But, at the moment, this is not up to me-it's up to the enemy to either be deterred or come to their senses.Something I'm not inclined to take a chance on,or wait around for happening.

 

And that leads me to the biggest point of all to all of you. One never knows what threat will arise,where it will come from,why it will happen-but it CAN happen to you. ANYTIME,ANYPLACE. I had made the mistake of being lulled into a false sense of security by my present environs. After years of having lived/worked/served and fought in high-threat/lethal environs and situations,I had begun to feel that I could let my guard down. To relax a bit,enjoy my life in a secluded,country paradise.Free,finally,from the usual hazards and threats found all too often in other places.Prior to this situation,my biggest concern-and it wasnt really much of a concern,was encountering the occasional venomous snake or two.(I've never in my life had any issue with Gators-if you leave em alone,they'll usually avoid you),and that was about it. Out here we are secluded,keep to ourselves,and no one bothers with or gets into the business of one another.In my nearly 5 yrs of living out here,I have had few enough conversations with,or for that matter,even seen any of my fellow neighbors more times than I can count on one hand.It's been THAT peaceful. And I've loved every minute of it.

But this has changed.For good.Im not going to let this situation ruin my peace,or run my life. Im going to do everything I can to deter and prevent a repeat of such things. But if it comes down to it, I will also do anything/everything I can to defend my wife,my home,my dogs,and my neighbors-to the death,if need be.I've spent most of my adult life defending my country from one threat or another. It's time now for me to defend my own homefront-against any and all threats.

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

In addition to a new dog, I would invest in security cameras (or even fake ones), motion sensors (you can get lights with these cheap a the hardware store) and an alarm system (usually a monthly billing service). Additionally I would visibly reinforce their known break-in points on my house. This will make your house even less attractive to these people.

 

I understand the "no retreat" mentality. However, depending on the judge and jury (I don't know the political climate is in your county), you may be painted as an ex-military war-hungry PTSS whacko if you end up defending your family and killing any of the perpetrators. You could have serious legal consequences that tie you up with tens of thousands in legal fees depending upon how your LEO's respond to you(check out the guy in Long Island thread). If they are just stealing a thousand bucks worth of stuff, then it may be cheaper than paying a lawyer to help you with a legal or civil suit and/or dealing with the loss of a loved one.

 

With that said, I would first consult with the sheriff of your county regarding what he/she would recommend you use to defend your family if it comes down to that and what you can do to prevent it coming to that. A CCW or Firearms class that the sheriff approves of or signs off on will also help your standing. Also ask if he or she may also assign a patrol car come by on a regular basis to help ward these people off since it has been show that they are targeting this area with the other break-ins. Keep a record of all of this and do and get as much as you can in writing.

 

As stated by other forum members, a Saiga 12 will allow most close self-defense scenarios to work in your favor. However, a rifle is going to allow you a much longer distance of effectiveness if you are rural. If they have rifles (you stated they have AR's), I would recommend you get a weapon of similar distance capabilities as they can engage you from a much longer distance than your shotgun is capable of if they become intent on killing you.

 

I would recommend evaluating your neighborhood and home from an area of approach standpoint and plan accordingly (you stated you were ex-military). It is likely that these people are breaking in by using specific tactics (i.e. breaking windows, picking locks, garage door, etc.) and Sun Tzu would tell you to fortify your weak points and make them look stronger than they actually are. Are they using vehicles or coming in on foot? Get outdoor motion sensors in the likely avenues of approach to alert you sooner of their presence. Bars on the windows may sound awful, but if they keep these people out, then I would do it.

 

If you can deter them from coming to your house, then I would do everything in my power to do it. These people seem very dangerous and 1 armed man against 4-6 armed men is not a winning proposition no matter who you are.

 

Lastly, find or make a bullet safe place in the house for you and your family so that if they decide to just open fire on your house in frustration of not getting in or in retaliation of your actions, then you have a place that your family will not be harmed. Sandbags are cheap and effective. Drywall, wood and sofas don't stop most bullets.

 

If this situation is as you stated, then I wish you the best (condolences on your dog) and I hope that they catch the bastards that did it before it ever comes to a head with you.

Edited September 9, 2010 by BuffetDestroyer

[309MI 4]

[G O B 3,516]

I stand by my recommendations. Due to the sheer numbers they are bringing, the MD-20 is the only mag with the combination of reliability/available rounds to even the playing field. And Doberman's are bred to guard in packs, when there are two or three, the one barking is NOT the on attacking. They work as a team instinctively.The 'bangers have already shown you that they can and will kill 1 dog!

[Paulyski 2,227]

/In a perfect world, one could dump a drum out of an MD-20 (which are on sale for less than $80.00) to annihilate the threats, then joint'em out & feed them to pigs.

Then, break the sculls up with hammers & dump them in aligator infested swampland, where nobody will be diving any time soon..... (Pigs will eat the bones, but have a hard time with sculls)

 

But that's in a perfect world......

[TR Young 175]

I just want to say that I am very sorry over the loss of your dog. I also want to say that no dog is any match for any gun, so buying a dog for home defense when you know the people are well armed is a moot point. You will just end up with another dead dog. Don't get me wrong; having a dog for home security for break-ins is a good thing, but you said that these people shot your dog from down the road with a shotgun. Your dog never stood a chance, nor will any other dog. I say good security systems and cameras and strong locks are the number one priority. Number two is what you are researching here; your S12 and what you can do with it.

 

I wish you all the best, and personally, I hope the person who is responsible for killing your dog meets his/her demise in the exact same fashion.

 

ETA - The 'Castle Doctrine' and the 'No Retreat' laws are a huge step in the right direction for homeowners. I hope the bastards do step foot on your property and you exercise your rights.

Edited September 12, 2010 by TR Young

[BronCobraJet 80]

Move. Avoid violence that puts your family at risk. "4-6 armed persons with handguns,AR's and shotguns" sounds like bad odds to me. Also, something about this thread doesn't feel right....

Yeah, feels hokey as hell. I'm wary. It's like a juniuor freelance wants to say we are all armegeddeen or some bull shit.

[BronCobraJet 80]

Move. Avoid violence that puts your family at risk. "4-6 armed persons with handguns,AR's and shotguns" sounds like bad odds to me. Also, something about this thread doesn't feel right....

Yeah, feels hokey as hell. I'm wary. It's like a juniuor freelance wants to say we are all armegeddeen or some bull shit.