Home defense S12?

[jbw00d28 4]

Fully understand what you are saying,War. And I;ll see if my shop has the frangible loads.

As for the safe place within the home-great in theory-but it depends on entirely too many things,depending on the interior layout of one's home.I have such a place designated,and the wife knows to go there and hunker down with the phone,etc.

But- It all depends on where you are in the home at the time the bad guys come in,and where they come in from. What if the two of you happen to be at opposite ends of the home? Say one of you in the living room or kitchen,and the other in a bedroom or bathroom-if the bad guy penetrates at some point between the 2 of you-and/or between one or both of you,and that safe room,then what?

As much as we can all try to prepare,and train/equip ourselves and our home for such situations,there are simply too many variables to not have some flexibility.And you and I both know about Murphy,and his feelings about your Plans A,B,and C.

 

Also,as much as the concerns for INSIDE the home, Im having to take into consideration for measures OUTSIDE on the grounds. To include being fired upon from off-property,when one is out in the open,and exposed.Something which is sometimes unavoidable. (and the very situation that kicked all of this off for me).Sometimes you may find yourself unable to get to reasonable cover or concealment,or into the home itself.(hence the .45 for carry when out and about in the yard,etc.)

 

 

Yup, I get it. I sitll think that having a plan is better than not having one, whether it can happen when crazy-ness goes down or not...."Good thing it happened exactly like we trained baby, or I could have shot you!" is alot better than "I wish we had a plan..." at a funeral.

 

If you are living in that kind of area, where shots can come in from the outside, you may need something with more reach.... Can't really go wrong with a .45, slugs or 00. I keep a HK G3 just for that kind of SHTF situation (shots coming in from the outside, not someone inside the house...i leave that to my saiga and my judge).

 

Sorry to hear that you are going through that kind of madness right now. My solution would be to make sure everyone in the house was trained on a weapon and that a weapon was available in easily accessible areas around the home, that way you don't get caught with your pants down in the wash room with nothing to grab but a bar of soap to throw at them.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Warpike

[309MI 4]

rgr wilco on that. working on it as we speak.

[going12220 125]

[Outside_Portland 0]

Have you invested in an alarm? My father-in-law used to say "A trained thief could by-pass that, you know." My response was that I was worried about a junky looking for quick cash or some gang member trying something stupid, not a clan of techno-ninjas. My barking dogs also helped.

"But those won't stop a DETERMINED intruder." Yeah, but the combination of an alarm and dogs made the hundred houses on my block without them look like much better targets.

I hope that everyone here has invested in a decent lock for your doors and lights for the outside. Attackers look for opportunity and vulnerability and thieves look for easy scores. Neither typically look for challenging targets to risk their pathetic lives on.

As for the nightmare scenario of multiple intruders with body armor who are drugged up enough not to care when they've been seriously wounded but still have the presence of mind to use effective squad tactics...you're far more likely to die from heart disease or cancer, not from that. Eat right, get regular check-ups, and exercise. And go for a shotgun you can rely on to fire every time you need it with frangible rounds so you don't accidentally kill a relative or neighbor.

Edited September 13, 2010 by Outside_Portland

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

This thread has taken a very interesting turn, I'm really soaking up a lot of wisdom here.

 

While I live in the city I'm still in more of a "country" mentality, that being said, my two heelers will warn me plenty well enough should something be out of the norm at night. I don't believe in alarms, my grandmother's husband has an alarm in his house, it's really more of a hassle than anything else. I don't like the fact that if I forgot my cell in my car and remembered right before bed (it's my alarm) that, to go get it, I'd have to go to a central location in the house, type in a little number, wait, and THEN go outside to get my cell, then come back in, type in the number AGAIN, wait for it to arm AGAIN, and then go off to bed. Furthermore, I don't like that, should it ever go off because someone was trying to get in, 1. all I'm going to be able to hear is that damn alarm and the dogs barking, 2. the alarm will put Mr. Bad Intentions in hurry mode, and 3. Now I have the damn phone ringing off the wall. It's just too much crap to deal with for me. If you like an alarm, fine, use one, I'm not knocking your choice, just explaining why I'll never have one.

 

I DO agree that the likelihood of someone breaking in to do bodily harm to myself or my loved ones is very slim. So slim that I sleep very peacefully at night, and I'm not worried about some professional thief wanting our 13" black & white with bunny ears...

 

I'm also looking with great interest into frangible shotgun rounds and some smaller shot rounds. Like I said, I'm more of a country type person who hasn't really been afraid of penetrating through walls since there wasn't anything on the other side to hit... right now, I'm very fortunate in the fact that no one lives in the apartment next to us and we are separated from other units by a clay brick wall (not cinder block which is much easier to shoot through), so I have a little time to find what I need.

 

I don't JUST have the S-12 for HD either, the wife and I ready the twin .40 cal pistols, her double-barrel 12, the pump-action, my S-12, and my x39 rifle every night, (what's the point of having them if they are empty?), so we have a few options at our disposal. I'm also cool with letting the fight come to me, that way the choke-point is the bedroom door that both of us will be aiming at... two is one, one is none.

 

There is much wisdom in this thread, I just hope that I'm part of it...

[raidersfan_5544 57]

^ If you are worried about penetration in your apartment and are looking into frangible buck/slug for your shotgun. You might want to think about that x39 your using for HD as well.

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

^ If you are worried about penetration in your apartment and are looking into frangible buck/slug for your shotgun. You might want to think about that x39 your using for HD as well.

 

 

This is my concern as well, that's why it's the last resort, I also have the AR loaded but with it's scope I really don't see it being of good use for HD.

 

But yeah, I took a few 1/8" thick steel electrical box covers and screwed them to a board. x39 went through two of them at 100 yards smoother than if I had drilled the holes.

 

That was a bit of a wake-up...

[Paulyski 2,227]

....................And go for a shotgun you can rely on to fire every time you need it with frangible rounds so you don't accidentally kill a relative or neighbor.

Can't you rely on your S-12?

 

If not, If it's Portland OR. you're outside of, hit me up, I'm in No-Po...

I'll show you how to get that bitch hummin' like Tracy Lords.

 

 

 

ETA;

 

Yeah, but the combination of an alarm and dogs made the hundred houses on my block without them look like much better targets.

That's a long-ass block!

Edited September 15, 2010 by Paulyski

[SaigaKen 338]

....................And go for a shotgun you can rely on to fire every time you need it with frangible rounds so you don't accidentally kill a relative or neighbor.

Can't you rely on your S-12?

 

If not, If it's Portland OR. you're outside of, hit me up, I'm in No-Po...

I'll show you how to get that bitch hummin' like Tracy Lords.

 

 

 

ETA;

 

Yeah, but the combination of an alarm and dogs made the hundred houses on my block without them look like much better targets.

That's a long-ass block!

 

 

Ah yeah.....Traci was my favorite years ago....Had ALL her films Even the illegals Too bad someone borrowed and never returned

[going12220 125]

[Paulyski 2,227]

The start of a statement that you can be pretty sure is not going to end well:

“Hey Bubba hold my beer and watch this”,

“I’m going to get a gun”, and

“Why you no good SOB I’ll show you”

 

Going up willingly against a bunch of armed assholes is either a movie or just a really bad plan. You lose your dead, you win you go to jail, but if you’re going to do it let us know how it works out.

 

One more important thing as seen above never loan out porn or guns.

People are getting desperate.

Home invaders are a different breed.

Really.

There's really complete sociopaths out there that WILL FUCK YOU UP.

They, like myself, don't just throw one punch & see what happens... Once they punch, they don't stop for a while.

But they will beat you into submission & hold a gun to your kids head till you give them everything, weather you think you have anything worth stealing or not.

One can USUALLY get along with these types as long as they never screw them over & show that they're a scarier, tougher dog, but when they attack, they need some shock & awe to be deterred when they're in action, & they may finger you for someone else to rob.

If they screw up while holding a family & shoot one, they may feel the need to eliminate all the witnesses... ESPECIALLY if they're on meth.

 

My good friend who's a member here under the name Chunky (he never logs on anymore) has been robbed at gunpoint 3 times now. Two were home invasions. Someone knocks on the door & they burst in when it cracks open while the other 3 around the corner follow through the door.

Once, with two .22 riffles, once with a .45 up to his head out of the blue & once when 3 guys rushed him, tackling him so hard he almost went through an entire interior wall (both times) & they took his gun while they held him down.

The last time, he lost 50% of his vision in his left eye from being pistol whipped (with his own pistol) & he's a 6' 3" 260 lb Indian with more heart & balls than I'd bet anyone on this forum has...

He's just too trusting & unsuspecting.

 

So going up against multiple people is a reality... Especially if you'r a card holder or grower for a medical marijuana program in your state, or the wrong people know you're a chronic pain suffer with prescriptions. This is why a court in my state overruled the federal ban on marijuana users having guns (if they're medically supported.)

 

So I'd say whole heartedly to go with a drummed up S-12 or Russian 8s, 1 in the gun, 1 in your pocket & the russian 5 in your pocket.

But make sure it runs right, the ports are cool & the mags work flawlessly.

If you must settle for American stick mags, go with TUNED AGPs, for ten rounds of rather reliable capacity. (I say rather reliable, because if you run into something hard with the mag while running, the front tab may break due to it's lack of steel reinforcement.)

 

If it won't fire federal low brass reliably on setting 2, run 2 3/4 .00 buck on setting 2 out of the drum just until you enlarge the ports.

But seriously, some people make a living off of robbing people.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHcc6mv2KLc

Edited September 16, 2010 by Paulyski

[magsite20 1,664]

Rules for a Gunfight

Anonymous

1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.

 

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap - life is expensive.

 

3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

 

4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.

 

5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)

 

6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.

 

7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.

 

8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.

 

9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel blows the powder from the flintlock of your musket."

 

10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

 

11. Always cheat, always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

 

12. Have a plan.

 

13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.

 

14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.

 

15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

 

16. Don't drop your guard.

 

17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.

 

18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.)

 

19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

 

20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

 

21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

 

22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.

 

23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

 

24. Do not attend a gun fight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with anything smaller than "4".

 

25. You can't miss fast enough to win.

 

[SELFDEFENSE 2]

My HD setup is Tapco T6 stock/grip, DPH Russian copy muzzle attachment, MD V-Plug, Surefire 12-round mag, and Federal Tactical 00 Buck (which even worked at the #1 setting of the factory plug). I would go no lighter than #1 Buck for selfdefense.

[zephyr9900 0]

Has anyone seen these, I have some on order. http://www.ddupleks.lv/EN/ddupleks_products/show/Dupo28 or http://www.ddupleks.lv/EN/ddupleks_products/show/Hexolit32 Sounds like it will stop the BGs in there tracks yesterday! Any thoughts or experiences using this ammo?

[beerasaurus 9]

The thread has gone cool places, but I wanted to chime in on the original topic for a second. I, too, would much rather have a pump for home defense, but either way here's some pattern info that I whipped up on a few brands of ammo.

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=42590&st=0&p=387752&hl=+pattern%20+beerasaurus&fromsearch=1entry387752

[mgconnor13 206]

"Safety is something that happens between your ears, not something you hold in your hands." - Jeff Cooper

 

As an Iraq war vet I'll tell you straight up it doesn't matter how big of a weapon you use on some one if you don't hit vitals they won't die and if they're still alive they can still hurt you. We bombed a house (yes like 500 pounds of explosive falling out of the sky) one time and a guy crawled out of the hole were a mud hut had been. Another guy took a round from 240B (7.62x51) to the head and it didn't kill him. Guy in my unit was shot in the shoulder, he picked up is SAW and went to town on the guy that shot him. I know plenty of people that have been shot/ blown up with all kinds of weapons and they didn't stop fighting.

 

Bullets are just high speed spears/ arrows. Your gun is a high speed lead injector. Use it to poke holes in your enemy so their blood comes out till they die (which it takes awhile for some one to bleed out) or you scramble their brain so they can't function. which bring ups up rule 2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap - life is expensive. Nothing can ever be made too dead. I prefer extra dead. I think the general rule of thumb with the Samurai was he wasn't dead till his head and body where at least 3 feet apart.

 

23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation. <- Right ON!!! Avoid bad situations!!

 

If you can't avoid a bad situation make if clear to you're enemy that you will kill them at the drop of a hat if you have to. The more prepared you are to fight to the death you are the less likely you are to have to.

 

Make your peace will killing in advance so when the time comes you can do what you have to do and move on with your life. If you get a chance read On Killing and On Combat by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. It will really help you understand the physical and mental aspects of killing and the bodies processes to help you survive.

 

Shotguns are excellent close range weapons. You can put more lead on target with a shotgun then you can with an MP5. Use buck shot. You want penetration!!!! (again back to making them bleed out or scrambling their brains) Any thing with enough penetration to kill will go through walls, that just how it is. We don't have high tech bad guy only bullets yet.

 

Personally I carry a Glock 22 but that's my insurance policy/ back up gun. I keep a 870 ready to go and my S-12 ready to go. I'm equally comfortable fighting with my 870 as I am with my S-12

 

Dead bolts on doors, alarms, dogs, good lighting are all deterrents and good to have. Just remember they cops aren't going to get there in time. A good friend of mine was a cop and he never got there in time. Cops get the call when something is happening or already happened. You have to take care of yourself.

 

Keep you shotgun ready with some 00 buck that runs well in your gun, have a handgun as a back up gun. Make a plan, rehearse your plan, refine your plan, keep practicing, keep learning and stay alert.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Rusty truck

[SaigaKen 338]

This is what I bought.....

 

Why settle for JUST buckshot

 

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting/Ammunition/Shotgun-Ammunition%7C/pc/104792580/c/104691780/sc/104567580/Winchester174-PDX1-Personal-Defense-Shotshells/706600.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fshooting-ammunition-shotgun-ammunition%2Fwinchester%2F_%2FN-1100191%2B4294966939%2FNe-4294966939%2FNs-CATEGORY_SEQ_104567580%3FWTz_st%3DGuidedNav%26WTz_stype%3DGNU

Edited October 13, 2010 by Saiga Power

[mgconnor13 206]

I'm having a hard time finding any test info on the Winchester slug and ball shell. Most of what I've found has been hype over the 410. I'm leery of any exotic ammo designs.

 

I'd just stick with buck shot. It's proven, it's easy to get. 9 00 pellets is like hitting some one with a burst from a SMG. Buy yourself some different boxes of buckshot and go to the range and figure out what is best for you.

 

here's an example of groupings

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot20.htm

 

Here's some gel tests of several 12 guage rounds. Gives you an idea what a shot gun can do.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/12%20gauge.html

 

Here's some info on how sheet rock will handle or not handle shotgun shells

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

Edited October 14, 2010 by Rusty truck

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

I'm having a hard time finding any test info on the Winchester slug and ball shell. Most of what I've found has been hype over the 410. I'm leery of any exotic ammo designs.

 

I'd just stick with buck shot. It's proven, it's easy to get. 9 00 pellets is like hitting some one with a burst from a SMG. Buy yourself some different boxes of buckshot and go to the range and figure out what is best for you.

 

here's an example of groupings

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot20.htm

 

Here's some gel tests of several 12 guage rounds. Gives you an idea what a shot gun can do.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/12%20gauge.html

 

Here's some info on how sheet rock will handle or not handle shotgun shells

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

 

 

AMEN!!! And I'd like to add to the rules above.

 

If your gun says Judge, or .410, anywhere on it, you should get another gun...

[Mephis 82]

Lots of people may think I'm crazy, but I suggest managed recoil remington sluggers.

 

They don't overpenetrate and they dump a lot of energy into a very nasty wound channel.

 

At indoor ranges, you won't have enough buck/shot spread to be getting much of an advantage over a slug. Problem with buck/shot is, at indoor ranges you're having to compromise so much stopping power for the sake of reducing overpenetration. With a reduced recoil slug/tactical slug, you won't have that problem. Just enough penetration to do the job, and not a bunch of pellets you have to worry about missing.

 

I load 00buck/slug/00buck/slug in all my magazines and drums. Lots of people may disagree with this, but I believe it's the only way to get versatility out of a shotgun, just remember what's up next in the magazine.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Mephis

[Zambidis 90]

I plan to acquire the 10 or 12 round mags the store has for it-(not sure what make,yet-and not,at this time concerned with 992

 

I would be much more worried about facing Federal Prosecution than having 5 fewer rounds in the chance you actually need to shoot someone. Particularly considering you could for very little money make the gun compliant by swapping parts like a gas puck or a forearm or buy a less expensive gun that holds more rounds. I personally think the saiga needs a bit of work before it becomes a weapon I want for HD. Now once that is done I have a different opinion.

 

Yes a 922r charge is seemingly unlikely (right now), although if you do something to put yourself on the radar (like use the gun to shoot someone or perhaps even just confront someone) then it becomes more likely. Also even if the risk is low the consequences are so potentially high that it is simply asinine to not have a compliant gun. The financial expense of charges being brought is staggering. Then there is the actual punishments that can be imposed. I have been involved in a professional capacity in a number of Federal criminal cases. The US attorney's office doesn't dick around once the decide to take action. You do not want the power of the US Federal government brought to bare against you. I promise.

 

In sum, my friendly advice is that you should make that gun compliant, why play with fire.

 

 

For home defense I would use #4 or #6 shot. This is what the police departments in my area use in their shotguns on patrol.

 

What police dept is that? I'll just say this, anything I have shot a bunny rabbit or a little pheasant with, at distances that exist in my home, and had to go give the critter a coup de grace is not on my list for dealing with an imminent threat to my life.

 

s for rounds/types of rounds. .223/5.56mm for HD, the one concern I have with that is of ricochet. Those things,being so easy to deflect, are ricochet nightmares.

Any of you with military/combat experience has seen what I speak of-especially whenever tracer is used. Those rounds tend to go zinging off in every crazy direction downrange-whether they hit soft sand,paved surfaces,glass, you name it. I'd be concerned, in the extreme,about over-penetrated or missed shots striking something downrange,and either zinging back to strike a friendly, or myself.

 

Might I suggest that the type of bullet used will have considerable effect on this and proper bullet choice makes a 5.56 among the best choices for minimizing over penetration while maintaining adequate performance on target.

 

At that range the shot is concentrated enough to do ALOT of damage, while not heavy enough to penetrate into the next room and take out a family member.

 

I have never understood how people rationalize the view point that close range bird shot will stay together enough to penetrate adequately on a human but if it instead hits drywall it will lose that magic stay together and penetrate property. Bird shot does not have reliable penetration on humans. As to it assuredly killing people there have been enough hunting accidents to show that bird shot is far from a death ray even at close ranges. I do not claim it would be enjoyable or have zero effect but the objective in a SD encounter is to stop a threat ASAP, after all if they are not an IMMINENT threat of death or serious bodily harm then you are not legally justified in shooting them. Relying on psychological stops is unsound IMHO. If it was sound the we could just rely on the presentation of your gun, after all, typically someone who has a gun pointed at them will stop and desist. Physiological stops require penetration that bird shot simply may not offer particularly for things other than a full on unobstructed frontal shot (I know paper targets stay in that position but BG often do not). If the threat is armed with a a firearm and can return fire this seems even more critical.

 

I'd not stake my life on bird shot. Much more so if I believed the threat would be armed with an AR.

 

If I was dealing with a credible threat I would in relation to firearms and apart from other actions taken, turn my focus to becoming very proficient in the use of my defensive firearms. I would rather have a $150 pump gun and a shotgun course under my belt than a $500 saiga. Being proficient with your weapon and understanding some basic concepts is likely to be worth a whole hell of a lot more than the three extra rounds a saiga has (or what ever other hardware advantage the platform is seen to offer).

[Zambidis 90]

just remember what's up next in the magazine.

 

That shouldn't be real hard in the middle of a firefight when one is facing a threat to life or limb and likely experiencing body alarm response. I do not believe it is reasonable to be able to expect that one can keep track of a mixed load magazine in that type of situation.

 

I believe it's the only way to get versatility out of a shotgun

 

Another way, and a more orthodox way (for a reason I imagine) is to simply become proficient at select a slug drills. If you need a slug quickly load one, then you have one when you need it. A staggered mag offers no more versatility, you still need to get the proper round in the chamber at the proper time and there is seemingly a much higher rate of error of touching off a slug when you thought it was buck or the opposite. Some situations you may be able to just shoot twice and have on of the rounds have the desired effect but it is not hard to create hypothetical situations where that wouldn't be the case.

 

I am not aware of any trainers or instruction programs that advocate a mixed mag over developing the skill set of very quickly changing to the desired ammo. These programs are developed by knowledgeable folks on the basis of more than just conjecture.

[Mephis 82]

 

I am not aware of any trainers or instruction programs that advocate a mixed mag over developing the skill set of very quickly changing to the desired ammo. These programs are developed by knowledgeable folks on the basis of more than just conjecture.

 

 

If it was a pump gun, that'd be all fine and good.

 

It's not so much that I'm looking to specifically select a round. Let's say it's a SHTF situation, and all you have is your shotgun. Just stay on target and keep pulling the trigger, something is going to connect eventually.

 

If I had an 870, I'd just side saddle it with some different rounds and drop in what ever I needed for the situation. Currently it has two rounds of 00 buck sitting on the top of the magazine before it starts alternating. If 2 rounds of 00 doesn't take it down, then switching off slugs and buck certainly will.

 

 

Call my logic stupid all you like, I'm not tactical ted, I just know the way my gun is set up there's no way to really accomplish ammo selection under stress. That's my attempt to at least have a few tools on hand if things go from bad to worse.

[theorangeplanet 968]

This is what I bought.....

 

Why settle for JUST buckshot

 

http://www.cabelas.c...WTz_stype%3DGNU

 

I bought a box for my public defender and felt really let down. The discs are supposed to engage the rifling, but didn't on mine. The BB shot is pointless... ends up being no where dense enough to do squat... and why not load it up with a couple more of the discs if there were room?

 

I shot several rounds into some dry beech logs, and the discs would barely embed in the wood. In fact, some only left a mark and bounced off. The BB shot had better penetration in the wood than the discs did. A body may react a little different but I seriously question the velocity of these things out of the short barrel judge.

 

The best performing shotshells out of the judge still seem to be the federal buckshot load... but for the judge I still suggest the .410 for snakes and .45 for folks.

 

 

As far as the 12 gauge PDX1, no experience... but I won't be buying any to find out. If I want to shoot buckshot its because I don't want to shoot a slug and if I want to shoot a slug whats the point of having buck behind it? Those three balls aren't going to make up for a miss.

[mgconnor13 206]

Avoid bird shot!!!! Any one remember hunting with Dick Cheney? Heck I remember reading about a guy that decided to end it all by suck starting his shotgun. Guy had it angled too far forward and his shotgun was loaded with bird shot. It just peeled the flesh off his face and made him retarded. I went to AIT with a guy that shot himself in the foot with a load of bird shot in a skeet shooting accident. I just peeled the flesh from the bone. Well needless to say his foot is in good enough shape that he could serve in the army. Sure bird shot may cause a "traumatic" wound but it's very SHALLOW. Filling some ones skin and muscles with little pellets isn't going to lead to hypovolemic shock (blood lose) of a disabling injury to the central nervous system (brain and brain stem). Your ribs and skull do a great job of protecting your vitals. All your major arteries are on the inside of your limbs protected by your bones so to sever a major artery/vein you have to go through the limb and the bone the artery/vein is next to. Can bird shot break bone in order to get to the major arteries/veins? Can bird shot go through an arm or shoulder and deep enough into the thoracic cavity to puncture vital organs?

 

Here's some more ballistic gel tests

http://www.shadonet.com/?p=14

Again bird shot doesn't penetrate deep enough to tear up the vitals.

 

Their overall conclusion is right on.

 

There's a reason the FBI's penetration standard is for a handgun bullet to consistently penetrate a minimum of 12 inches of tissue. Reason for this is so the round will reliably hit the vitals in a person regardless of the angle they get hit at or material needed to penetrate to first. Remember your attacker may be wearing a heavy coat or something else. Get some of your friends and measure their chests and shoulders to see how deep you'd have to penetrate to get to their vitals.

 

I'm 6'2" and about 190lbs. You have to go at least 9"-10" to get a round through my shoulder to get a round into my heart. That is assuming the bones don't take the brunt of it and I'm not wearing a lot of heavy clothing. Bird shot just isn't going to go deep enough.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Rusty truck

[Zambidis 90]

If it was a pump gun, that'd be all fine and good.

 

there's no way to really accomplish ammo selection under stress [with a saiga].

 

Interesting to see on this board the essence of the argument some people use against the saiga to say tube fed guns are superior, that argument is that one cannot transition to slugs. I would submit that the exact process for doing so is slightly different than with a tube fed gun but a slug transition is far from impossible or unduly difficult or slow with a saiga provided the user is up to snuff on it, the user also needs to be up to snuff on a tube gun so there is no real difference there.

 

It's not so much that I'm looking to specifically select a round.

 

I am of the opinion that it is preferable to know what is coming out the end of your muzzle.

 

 

Let's say it's a SHTF situation, and all you have is your shotgun. Just stay on target and keep pulling the trigger, something is going to connect eventually.

 

What does this SHTF situation consist of. That is an incredible vague description of the problem being faced. I would simply reiterate, and slightly expand for clarity, what I already said above. It is not hard to come up with situations in which one could fire a slug or buck interchangeably without it matter much which was used. Some situations you may have need of a slug instead of buck. We can dream up situations where one would be able to just shoot twice, or more, to get to that desired slug. However, it is also not hard to create hypothetical situations where that wouldn't be the case. One is unlikely to be able to choose the details of a gun fight they get into.

 

 

That's my attempt to at least have a few tools on hand if things go from bad to worse.

 

I do not mean this to cause offense as it is not meant as a value judgment of any sort, but it sounds like an instance of seeking a hardware solution over a software solution. I don not believe, and it certainly is not the orthodox view, that things like mixed mags are a superior solution to knowing how to properly run the gun.

 

Call my logic stupid all you like

 

I never called your logic stupid. I simply pointed out that it is not widely accepted and the reasons why I disagree with it.

[Mephis 82]

 

 

Interesting to see on this board the essence of the argument some people use against the saiga to say tube fed guns are superior, that argument is that one cannot transition to slugs. I would submit that the exact process for doing so is slightly different than with a tube fed gun but a slug transition is far from impossible or unduly difficult or slow with a saiga provided the user is up to snuff on it, the user also needs to be up to snuff on a tube gun so there is no real difference there.

 

 

I do not mean this to cause offense as it is not meant as a value judgment of any sort, but it sounds like an instance of seeking a hardware solution over a software solution. I don not believe, and it certainly is not the orthodox view, that things like mixed mags are a superior solution to knowing how to properly run the gun.

 

 

Mind explaining to me how you're going to drop rounds into the chamber with a magazine fed shotgun?

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

 

 

Interesting to see on this board the essence of the argument some people use against the saiga to say tube fed guns are superior, that argument is that one cannot transition to slugs. I would submit that the exact process for doing so is slightly different than with a tube fed gun but a slug transition is far from impossible or unduly difficult or slow with a saiga provided the user is up to snuff on it, the user also needs to be up to snuff on a tube gun so there is no real difference there.

 

 

I do not mean this to cause offense as it is not meant as a value judgment of any sort, but it sounds like an instance of seeking a hardware solution over a software solution. I don not believe, and it certainly is not the orthodox view, that things like mixed mags are a superior solution to knowing how to properly run the gun.

 

 

 

Mind explaining to me how you're going to drop rounds into the chamber with a magazine fed shotgun?

 

I'll explain it.

 

Before I explain it, I want you to clear your mind of all distractions as the steps are extensive..

 

1. Open bolt and engage BHO

2. Put round on top of mag follower. IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT THE BRASS PART OF THE ROUND IS TOWARD THE REAR OF THE WEAPON!

3. Dis-engage BHO.

4. Pull trigger.

 

Yeah, it's one more step than the three required to heat up a pop-tart, and I know it seems hard but in reality it's very easy...

 

:lolol:

Edited October 14, 2010 by Caged

[Zambidis 90]

Mind explaining to me how you're going to drop rounds into the chamber with a magazine fed shotgun?

 

Why do you think one is required to run a S12 like a different weapon system?

Edited October 14, 2010 by Zambidis

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

This is what I bought.....

 

Why settle for JUST buckshot

 

http://www.cabelas.c...WTz_stype%3DGNU

 

I bought a box for my public defender and felt really let down. The discs are supposed to engage the rifling, but didn't on mine. The BB shot is pointless... ends up being no where dense enough to do squat... and why not load it up with a couple more of the discs if there were room?

 

I shot several rounds into some dry beech logs, and the discs would barely embed in the wood. In fact, some only left a mark and bounced off. The BB shot had better penetration in the wood than the discs did. A body may react a little different but I seriously question the velocity of these things out of the short barrel judge.

 

The best performing shotshells out of the judge still seem to be the federal buckshot load... but for the judge I still suggest the .410 for snakes and .45 for folks.

 

You are forgetting the most recent rule...

 

If your gun says Judge, or .410, anywhere on it, you should get another gun...