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Saiga 308.. MOA rifle..???


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Figured I'd take the initiative and move this on-going debate here.

 

Some Saiga 308's have really good accuracy based on this pole..

 

post-8775-013143800 1284639158_thumb.jpg

 

and

 

I have managed this at 100 yards with factory trigger and iron sites. (posted in another thread) with Winchester 150gr PowerPoints

 

post-8775-015541500 1284639254_thumb.jpg

 

and this with Tapco FCG and 3-9x40 scope and front 'bag' rest.. The key is barrel cooling for about 10 seconds between shots.

 

100 yards

 

post-8775-068241600 1284639425_thumb.jpg

 

post-8775-004637200 1284639431_thumb.jpg

 

200 yards

 

post-8775-058332400 1284639486_thumb.jpg

 

and the next day

 

post-8775-048167200 1284639441_thumb.jpg

 

If you let it get hot you will get about 6-8" groups at 200 yards if you blast away quickly.. this is about 40 rounds in 18mins.

 

post-8775-011610900 1284639781_thumb.jpg

 

and the average 200 yard group of 5-6 shots with just enough time to re-align the cross hairs..

 

post-8775-004716200 1284639953_thumb.jpg

 

post-8775-086695400 1284639958_thumb.jpg

 

 

I think most Saiga 308's are right at 1.5 MOA...

 

The good news another member GeorgiaPD, who is an LEO will be getting a new S308 and his 'tactical' team will be shooting 'groups' for us.

 

 

Albert

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as a side note.. the wood handguard does seem to affect the accuracy on the 308.. (with the heat building up).

 

that could also explain why PSL/Drags have vented wood handguards.

 

further testing will be done switching between that and the original 'poly' one..

 

P.S. Janis (my Saiga 308) and 200 yard distance.

 

post-8775-055007700 1284641515_thumb.jpg

 

post-8775-081590600 1284641602_thumb.jpg

Edited by YWHIC
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Al;

 

Depending on the ammo, I would have to agree. The platform itself appears to be well withing a 1.5 - 2.5 MOA expectation.

 

The interesting thing is the capability to shoot great 3 or 4 round groups with 1 MOA or sub-MOA, then zing out a 4 or 5 MOA flyer or two.

 

I'm fascinated by the engineering of the weapon to discover exactly where the inconsistency is. I took a close look at the bolt lockup tonight after cleaning,and the lugs appear to pull in tight and uniformly. I wonder if I could find a stronger recoil spring to test the potential for frequent weak battery after recoil. I'll keep exploring.

 

Thanks for all you hard work. Keep it up.

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I wish I had really paid attention to this reference a long time ago.

 

This is Hornady talking about pressure curves in relation to their Superformance line of cartridges:

 

http://www.hornady.com/ammunition/superformance-in-gas-operated-firearms

 

The data also shows the pressure curve of standard ammunition as well.

 

What I find interesting is the measurement of the distance between the gas port and the breech.

 

Judging by the Hornady nomenclature, even in the 16 inch barrel the Saiga 308 fits between the "mid-length" and "rifle-length" gas system. My ruler puts the gas system length of my 16 incher at 11 inches from gas port to breech.

 

Here's my 'WAG' on that (WAG=Wild Arsed Guess, so to speak):

 

First of all, I wish more cartridge makers would make time/pressure curve data available. Second, I would think that the 16 inch Saiga is going to fare better with ammo pressure curves like the Superformance line. On the Hornady graph, it looks like the pressure at an 11 inch gas system is just above "regular" ammo, which leaves only around 5.25 inches of barrel after the gas port. I'm betting that such little barrel left is going to lower the pressure acting on the gas system.

 

Granted, the gas is going to begin pushing the piston back as soon as the base of the bullet crosses the gas port. But, the mass of the piston and bolt carrier (inertia) is considerably greater than a bullet. The speedy bullet is going to exit the muzzle soon enough to evacuate the remaining bore pressure quickly. The 22 inch Saiga is likely to retain pressure longer.

 

Muzzle flash might be a different story, however. :)

 

Ballistics is such a fascinating topic, huh?

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I managed to get the 762x51 Federal AE 168gr OTM for just $18/box locally.. :smoke:

 

next to hit Walmart/Dicks next/this week to grab the Winchester 150gr PP.. some variety for testing..

 

if I can find the TAP ammo I'd be stoked.. :super:

 

Also added a 5 3/8" piece of aluminum RAIL to the factory handguard should I want to mount a bi-pod in the coming weeks..

 

just measured and drilled and did the Button Head/Nut in 10-32 x 2.. I left myself room to also mount the front-most screw in the 'sling' screw hole should I need to move the RAIL forward later also..

 

total cost was $4 for the BH/Screw and Nuts..

 

post-8775-064846700 1284842467_thumb.jpg

 

also grabbed a Bulldog 45" tactical bag for Janis for $39 so I don't have to remove the scope anymore prior to bagging..

 

 

 

Al

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I have set a date of Sunday 10/3/10.. to hopefully put this to rest.. Pending GeorgiaPD's results..

 

Going to use Tula 150FMJ, Federal AE 168gr OTM, and Winchester 150gr PP CXP-2.. for the testing..

 

All shots will be done at 100 yards with Bushnell 3-9x40 scope and front BAG rest (see Caldwell Bag above).. (may use rear also)..

 

There will be 4 shot 'groups' of each ammo.. this should result in the dreaded FLYER also...which tends to open the groups...

 

There will be approx 30 seconds between shots and 4 minutes between ammo brand changes.

 

Going to to use the upside down RU200 targets as setup like this:

 

 

post-8775-063028100 1284944362_thumb.jpg

 

I will conduct 2 'volleys' of each brand (8 rounds total per brand) and post ALL TARGETS.. :super:

 

May also video shooting hanging golf balls at 100 yards for extra credit/fun.. :smoke:

 

Things are getting going to get HOT... :devil:

 

 

 

Al

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I started numbering my hits on a tally sheet while shooting, then transferred them to the targets before scanning. Hopefully Al will do the same (Al, hint! :) )

 

See the topic: S308 16in - Range Trip Report 20100916

 

My next test, which will probably be 9/26, I plan to do some hand chambering.

 

While studying the operation of the bolt returning to battery, I began to wonder if the recoil spring might be a tad light, or if the S308 shouldn't have a standard AK recoil buffer. I did find a 15% stiffer spring, so I may give that a try in addition to removing the OEM buffer.

 

I was happy to see your comment about the chambering CSS. We may be looking at very minor tuning of the platform that would improve accuracy much, yet retain that good old AK dependability.

 

Thanks.

Edited by TxMark
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I was thining about buying a Socom M1A thing, but the more I think about it I might go with the Saiga 308 I would like to see a head to head match up between the two of them. I mean in terms of MOA and reliablity.

 

What do you guys think is the SOCOM worth the extra money, keep in mind that if I go with the Saiga 308 I'll do the conversion myself.

 

John

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The M1A will almost definitely do better then the saiga in accuracy.. But last I checked M1A and steel cased ammo don't mix. I bought the Saiga even though I had the money for the M1A

 

TXMark

One of the things that the saiga does not have going for it is the feed angle. If you check hand cycled rounds you will often see the tips of the rounds get banged up. I'm not really sure of a way to avoid this in an AK action.

 

Hand feeding may work well if you can come up with a way to close the bolt to the same point each time.

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I've been looking at buying one of these and like everything else I've been researching it to death. I really don't see evedince of these being 1.5MOA rifles in this thread or anywhere else. You need a 10 shot group, and unless you shouldn't have to wait for the barrel to cool down, otherwise you are better served with a Savage bolt gun, no?

 

I think the real question folks want to know is maxium confident range. One target showed about a 6" group at 200 yards (no barrel cooling). So I think calling them 1.5MOA is a bit misleading to prospective buyers comparing them to an AR10.

 

I think these are best thought of as sub 400 yard guns that offer better cover penetration that the typical AR & M4, and they are a good value.

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Well I do have a spotting scope here.. so I can more than likely number the shots. Thanks TxMark for the tip..

 

Regal.. most MOA's are determined with 3-5 shots or so, the 4 -5" group at 200 yards with 5-7 shots (in pic 7-8) would be the semi-correct MOA.. which works to about 1.5 MOA.. These were shot quickly as I could get the crosshairs back on target..

 

These will never shoot better than a bolt gun.. and yes I agree sub-400 yards would be Ideal..

 

Seems like all Saiga's string up/down abit when HOT.. (my observation with mine).

 

The ROLE for my 308 is intended for more marksman like shooting..

AKA headshots at 400-500 yards (5-8").. hopefully I can accomplish that goal..

I have the other two Saiga rifles for everything else.. :super:

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I've been looking at buying one of these and like everything else I've been researching it to death. I really don't see evedince of these being 1.5MOA rifles in this thread or anywhere else. You need a 10 shot group, and unless you shouldn't have to wait for the barrel to cool down, otherwise you are better served with a Savage bolt gun, no?

 

I think the real question folks want to know is maxium confident range. One target showed about a 6" group at 200 yards (no barrel cooling). So I think calling them 1.5MOA is a bit misleading to prospective buyers comparing them to an AR10.

 

I think these are best thought of as sub 400 yard guns that offer better cover penetration that the typical AR & M4, and they are a good value.

 

That's probably the best role for them. But I still think they are useful for the longer range stuff too, in a limited role. Can anyone really envision using their Saiga to stop a human wave attack at 500-600 yards? If not, then what is the worry about losing some accuracy when the barrel heats up?

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You have to remember that many of the groups shown (and all of mine). Are shot with wolf or brown bear ammo.

 

The simple truth is that these rifles are accurate enough for practical purposes. And even shot decently with cheap ammo.

 

Here are guys talking about their M1As most commenting 3-4 inch groups at 100 yards with Nato ammo. A few talk about sub MOA but they are also talking about very high end setups, barrel replacements ect. Heck their barrels probably cost more then my rifle did.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275663

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Either we are ALL lucky with these 1-2 MOA (at 100 yards) Saiga 308's... or somebody is just WRONG... and it isn't me and mav.. :lolol:

 

Even spetznGuru got good groups today at 100 yards with his S308.. :super:

 

We'll find out very soon... :killer:

 

 

Al

Edited by YWHIC
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I've got some good news for the 16 inchers out there who want to improve their accuracy. I finally broke down and got a decent chronograph (Competition Electronics ProChronograph w/remote). Personally, I'm tired of "guessing" if a cartridge is really 200 f/s slower than the published factory 24 inch barrel velocity! I'll publish the results here for all of the ammo I try out.

 

If there are any cartridge maker representatives reading this, "make more loads for shorter barrels". The Saiga needs a pressure curve that's 90% down after 11 inches. Otherwise, I guess I'll have to get back into handloading! :)

 

I'm into this with Al for the long haul. In my book, there are no arguments about the accuracy of an S308, there are only questions. It really won't bother me if my scoped rifle only groups 2-3 MOA. But, I want to find out what it will group reliably and what causes the frequent fliers that destroy predictability.

 

I've done the same with every rifle I've ever owned.

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But, I want to find out what it will group reliably and what causes the frequent fliers that destroy predictability.

 

Probably inconsistent manufacture in cheap Russian ammo. As an example, on theakforum.net, user voron has documented the lesser consistency of 7N6 vs. the Hornady 5.45 round.

Bullet weight in grains (from 4 random cartridges):

7N6 Hornady

53.2 60.4

53.9 60.4

53.3 60.3

53.2 60.4

 

That second 7N6 round would probably have been the flyer...

Edited by Jim Digriz
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I know we all like to talk shop but why so hung on MOA as a measure of accuracy?

 

Unless you are looking at using the rifle over 300 yards 4MOA is sufficient. Now understand I am talking practical stance and shooting, most measure the prone position, not vices or other such. Why? Because that is a true measure of man and rifle under somewhat realistic use. Of course you wont have the adrenaline shakes or battlefield confusion etc to deal with so its all kind of academic anyway. This is a very reliable rifle that is more than good enough to lay effective aimed fire out to 300 yards and perhaps beyond.

 

In the end it will be the shooter limiting the weapon not the other way around. Of course as a hobby squeezing out every bit of accuracy is all well and good as long as its you and not the vice doing the work.

 

Want a great way to get to know your rifle then take it to an Appleseed and put a couple hundred rounds through it in a variety of positions and learn one hell of a lot about your rifle, yourself, and why you as a rifleman are important.

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Everyone's got a different approach, even the Marines. Before any of their snipers takes his carefully manicured weapon into the field, it and its ammunition are fully benchmarked in a vice back at the weapons lab. They don't have to guess what the drop is at 300 yards, or what a 12 mph wind does to a particular bullet at 425.

 

Not having their backing or a weapons lab of my own, I guess I'm it.

 

One thing you have to realize is, I'm not new at this. Outside of what the Navy taught me about weapons, I spent most of the seventies taking coyotes in West Texas at an average of 300 yards, but never less than 200.

 

In my years of shooting, I've seen plenty of people who never improved because they didn't know the inherent physical behavior of their rifle. And, they didn't have the confidence that comes from knowing.

 

I don't disagree about the need for plenty of field practice. I just prefer better documentation before I do it, especially when burning $30+ boxes of ammo trying to find just the right long range hunting round.

 

Thanks for putting in the reminder about the true measure of marksmanship though. Much appreciated. And excellent rifleman who truly knows his weapon can sometimes shoot 1 MOA with a 3-4 MOA rifle.

 

Take care.

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Not really directed at anyone just us as a group and you are absolutely correct about being very studious concerning ballistics at $1.50 a shot that the higher end ammo will cost, even reloads don't bring it down enough to get loose with the ammo.

 

As a weapon system the sniper is not just a rifleman with a good eye his realm is field craft and deadly accuracy at a 100% rate. It is no accident that so many snipers were hunters first the similarities are plentiful as that second shot cant be counted on and a humane kill is paramount if for no other reason than the quality of the meat. I cannot tell how many times Ive seen people hang a scope off a rifle and bingo they are now a sniper. *Sighs*

 

Practice calls for cheap plentiful ammo. Ive spent far less time with the 308 than the x39 for just that reason. Not to get all long winded (too late heh) it takes a lot of practice dry-fire and live-fire to have the form and habits of a marksman. The S308 "can" be very accurate if enough time has been spent dialing in both ammo and marksman.

 

Some days of course its just fun to blow the hell out of a old PC just because you can. Have fun and good luck with the good work.

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You bet Rhodes, and helpful suggestions are always welcome.

 

The chronograph came today, and I can't wait to start measuring and posting data. My only regret is I don't have a 22 inch S308 too! :) But, for the 16 incher I will be sure to gather velocities for all the popular cartridges. No more guessing.

 

To be honest, using that Lead Sled contraption has been a painful experience to begin with. Back in my day, you couldn't even put together a bipod for a hunting rifle, so it was always a case of improvise. Most of my coyotes were taken with my trusty WInchester 70XTR bull barrel .243 from the prone position, resting the forearm on my rucksack. One time I even had to fold up a shop rag on top of a barrel cactus, well over 300 yards downwind of a fresh pack trail from the only "high" place of dirt around. And remember, when you're talking "high" in West Texas between Pecos and Odessa, it can be a matter of inches.

 

Once I've settled on the best hunting round, I can't wait until I can find some rancher in the area who will let me go out and shoot some wild hogs. Hoorah!

 

Thanks again.

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Going back to the local store and see if they have any Hornandy ammo this weekend (within $ reason)..

 

If so I will add that to the ammo list..

 

Should I stay at the 100 yard mark for accuracy testing?? or should I do 200 yards as well.??

 

100 yards would be easier to see and can 'mark them' from the bench easier... I dunno...

 

This is me shooting my 545x39 Saiga at 200 yards about 6 months ago..

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atx9gL65RwM

 

 

 

 

Albert

Edited by YWHIC
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Al;

 

I would stick to 100 yards, unless you're certain you can mark the shots in order at 200.

 

Here's my reasoning. If we discover a pattern of odd-even differences, that will tend to focus on a magazine related feed problem that is deforming the case or bullet on the feed.

 

I just feel it in my gut that there are a couple of simple things that could be done to improve accuracy without affecting reliability.

 

If we can figure out how to get rid of the wild flyers, fine. If not, I can just learn to live with it and adjust tactically. I still think it's a great rifle.

 

Hopefully, I can get out Sunday.

 

Good luck.

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Ditto on 100 yards and there are a few good reasons.

 

First the effect of the particular environment that day is removed more or less from the zero. Winds have little effect at that range unless its pretty stiff.

 

Second its long enough for the ballistics of your load to come into the process. While 25 or 50 yards isn't enough to determine ballistic effects 100 will include it.

 

Third it is long enough that your shooting form can be worked on as mistakes will be easily seen and diagnosed. Besides most hunting shots are in that band of 50 to 150 yards, depending of course on where you hunt.

 

Lastly its a range that folks will find easier to access since almost all outdoor ranges have that length. If you have a scope longer ranges can be dialed in as needed just always return it to your zero setting when finished, have made that mistake myself plenty of times so recording the setting may be a good idea. If you are using irons with BDC, as the AK does, zero at the one setting makes short and conclusive work of the process.

 

Finding someone to allow you to remove those wild boar from their property shouldn't be too difficult. Check the local wildlife management or hunting club to find out how its done in that particular area. Some advertise some don't but everyone wants em gone.

Edited by Rhodes1968
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Oh I got it just perhaps should have worded my response a bit clearer. Lst i looked the hog problem continues to worsen so finding a place to hunt may not be so difficult.

 

One thing that varies from state to state is how involved the wildlife management people are in the solution. Some states are discouraging hunting in favor of the state handling the animals as they claim it reduces the population faster. WTF are they thinking anyway since when is there enough state employees to go around given how widespread the hogs have gotten. Obviously what they are doing is not working at all. I think its just more of the anti-hunting crap that has been so prevalent in government lately. Next we will prob see PITA get in the middle of things screaming about the rights of hogs to each your crops. As it is now a lot of land owners shy from private hunters due to disrespect of the land and liability issues.

 

I would almost bet if we unleashed the entire military on the problem the hogs could still breed enough to keep up. It has gotten just that bad. The one thing new hunters should brand into their brains is these animals can turn the tables on you fast. Walking around in that brush they have the opportunity to get a good gore on you if you stumble on them, easier than it might seem. And some of these bad boys are freaking the size of small cars though those are good at not being seen.

 

Lot of fun really...

 

PS: Oh and I suggest a good auto-loader (Saiga five round mags usually) as having that second shot ready to go right away is a good idea (I prefer Remington SP to HP the hide is pretty tough). Side arm too if its legal 40SW, 45ACP, 357 or 44 mag would be all I would consider. Why a side arm? Well you just never know.

 

There are some good publications on the sport:

http://www.magazines.com/product/boar-hunter - I get this one its good

sites:

http://texasboars.com/index.html - great info for Texas last I looked

http://www.terrahunt.com/id13.html - Good info on habits and tendencies of the European wild boar which many consider the culprit behind our problems

 

Maybe we need a whole thread on this as a lot of hunters get hooked on the sport and frankly the meat is better than deer with a clean kill, can you say BBQ...have fun.

Edited by Rhodes1968
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Well.... tommorrow is RANGE day for me an Janis..

 

Will post follow-up tommorrow when I get back. I may run a video also..

 

Using just the Tula 150FMJ, the Fed 168OTM, and the Win 150gr PP ammo as stated earlier.. (no Hornady at local shop) :cryss:

 

Maybe I can pick off a few golf-balls on tape.. :super: at 100 yards..

 

 

 

Al

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Please see this post. w/video and pics.

 

http://forum.saiga-1...showtopic=58719

 

Cliff notes..

 

Win PP 150gr shot the smallest group of the day..

 

Fed OTM 168gr did very well. (gotta learn not to push rifle) :cryss:

 

Tula 150FMJ... is just Tula.. groups 1 & 3 were decent..

 

See above post for full details..

 

Shooting 1 1/2 - 2 1/4" 4 SHOT groups basically at 100 yards.

 

Overall VERY happy with day..

 

 

 

Al

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