MY TAC 47 T.A.R.G.E.T. Testing

[Bridis 319]

The Ammo...

• Remington 2 3/4" 1200fps, 8 shot Value Pack
• Winchester 2 3/4" 1200fps, 8 shot Universal Pack
• Federal 2 3/4" 1200fps, 7 1/2 shot Value Pack
• Winchester 2 3/4" Super X, 9 pellet 00 Buck
• Winchester 2 3/4" 1600fps, Rifled Hollowpoint Slugs
• Winchester 2 3/4" 2000fps, 300 grains, Sabot Slugs
• Winchester 2 3/4" 1700fps, 400 grains, Platinum Tip Sabot Slugs
• Brenneke 2 3/4" 1600fps, 400 grains, K.O. Slugs
• Brenneke 3" 1500fps, 600 grains, Gold Magnum

My testing included all of the above 12 ga. shells. I also tested with a factory front spring and reduced recoil front spring, as well as a factory gas plug, Gunfixer gas plug and of course the Auto gas plug.

The S-12 used is a 19", 3 port gun with no modification to the factory gas ports. The bolt, bolt carrier and trigger have been ground and polished for smoother performance and to allow the gun to be loaded on a closed bolt. My S-12 also has the following modifications.

 

• Internal Receiver Block Stock Adapter
• Phantom Flash Hider Door Breacher
• Tromix Skeleton Stock
• Stock Folding Mechanism
• Trigger hole Plugs
• Tromix Fire Control Group
• Vertical Folding Grip
• Chaos Quad Rail with HK Sights
• Extended Mag Release
• U.S. Made Gas Piston
• Bolt on AR Trigger Guard
• DPMS AR Grip

The Gun...

 

 

Tests Performed...

• Test performance with factory mag, factory main spring and Auto Plug using every type of low brass ammo.
• Test performance with MD-20 drum, factory main spring and Auto Plug using every type of low brass ammo.
• Compare the Auto plug in configuration 1 & 2 using the reduced recoil spring/factory plug/Gunfixer plug.
• Test Auto Plug performance with a variation of shell types loaded into the same mag.
• Record ejection differences between the different plugs and ammo.
• Note any instance of the bolt carrier striking the rear trunnion during use of various ammo types.
• Test Auto plug's ability to perform 5 and 20 round mag dumps.
   
  The Result...
  
  
   
  My Conclusion...
   
  As you can see from the results, the Auto Plug does work. However, it does so with a sacrifice. You sacrifice reliablitity for versatility. The auto plug will cycle various types of 12 ga. ammo (with reduced recoil spring) with no adjustment. Though you do risk doing damage to your rear trunnion. In the controlled testing we performed, the auto plug did less damage with more FTEs than the other two plug. That would be because the Auto plug seems to be letting the least amount of gas into the block.
  The GunFixer had less FTEs with more damage than the Auto Plug. Keep in mind that we had to switch the setting between almost every type of ammo.
  The Factory plug had the least amount of FTEs with the most amount of damage and depressing the detent pin to change the gas setting is a pain in the ass.
   
  Pros: The Auto Plug will cycle a variety of ammo with one setting.
   
  Cons: It won't cosistenly cycle low brass with a factory front spring.
   
  Based on my findings, I wouldn't say that the Auto Plug is for your average every day shooter. I think it would be good for a SHTF situation, where you didn't care what type of damage was being done to your gun and needed to run all kinds of ammo without screwing with settings. That way you could throw in a low recoil front spring, torque down the Auto Plug's adjustment screw and shoot to your hearts content. I think the average shooter would be better served by a GunFixer type plug, based on reliability and the likelyhood of a shooter needing to change ammo types mid mag.
   
  The Auto Plug is a neat addition to any Saiga. I'm also sure it will work differently in different guns. But for me, it fell short of what I was expecting.
   
  PICTURES AND VIDEO DOCUMENTING TODAY'S EVENETS WILL BE PUBLISHED SOON....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGZhBKecTg8

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMqxQXupcI4

 

 

*CLICK ME* TAC 47 T.A.R.G.E.T. Testing Out Takes and Bloopers *CLICKM ME *

 

 

*CLICK ME* No frills test of the T.A.R.G.E.T, Gunfixer and Factory Plugs with low brass *CLICK ME*

 

 

 

I'd like to extend and big THANK YOU to Saiga 12 forum member Sumsky and his wife for their help with today's testing and their sincere generosity.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Bridis

[wired 27]

Please define "damage" to the rear trunnion. I have several AK's and I'm pretty sure they all strike the rear trunnion.

[lvjeffro 30]

Bridis, thank you very much for the time, money and effort that you put into this test...Im saddened that the autoplug didnt perform as you, and I,and well, everyone had hoped for...

 

I know this is not concrete hardcore scientific data, but it was tested in real world conditions like most of us shoot..

 

Now, can you retest with the md arms v plug???...J/K

[bigmegina 3]

if you install a recoil buffer won"t that solve the problem of bolt carrier hitting the rear trunion.

[Bridis 319]

Please define "damage" to the rear trunnion. I have several AK's and I'm pretty sure they all strike the rear trunnion.

 

I reworded my post as to not confuse others with regards to "damage". I will be posting videos that will shown how we documented the bolt striking the trunnion.

[Bridis 319]

if you install a recoil buffer won"t that solve the problem of bolt carrier hitting the rear trunion.

 

I'm sure you could. But that could also affect how your gun cycles.

[Sumsky 115]

We had a great time, and very happy that we could help you out with the testing.

[hobbyshooter 59]

Good stuff Bridis. Did you adjust the auto plug at all to try to reduce the FTE?

[Shadoh 16]

I have the same question. Did you adjust the Auto Plug to match your gun or did you leave it at the factory setting?

[kmoore 3]

Please define "damage" to the rear trunnion. I have several AK's and I'm pretty sure they all strike the rear trunnion.

 

I reworded my post as to not confuse others with regards to "damage". I will be posting videos that will shown how we documented the bolt striking the trunnion.

 

what birdis said, recoil buffers work in some instances, but for me it caused jamming with higher powered shells ... I believe the bolt was bouncing forward. Gun would shoot birdshot all day long, but put in slugs or buck and it would turn into a single shot. Also did it when I used heavy game loads.

 

My gun is an old EAA import, don't know the round count but it's "a bunch". I liked the concept of this TARGET adjuster, I dropped mine in and just function checked the typical load I shoot (federal bird shot, wm bulk stuff). Ran a couple of 8 round mags thru it without incident. Was shooting as if in match, so I was hammering and shooting on the move (and missing hehehe jk). As I was moving I didn't measure any distances, and I didn't shoot any slugs ... was function checking only. Your test has me wondering if mine will run cheapest stuff on planet (winchester bulk pack ... ugggg) also, wonder if I'll get any contact on the trunion on stouter rounds.

 

Appreciate the work and the write up!

Edited September 22, 2010 by kmoore

[Bridis 319]

Good stuff Bridis. Did you adjust the auto plug at all to try to reduce the FTE?

 

Yes. We did have to adjust the plug to function with the reduced recoil spring and low brass shells. The Auto Plug wouldn't function reliably with the low brass shells and the factory front spring no matter how much adjusting we did.

 

Videos are coming...

[kw4tx 0]

Sounds as if I just wasted my money!....well crap....good concept...... I was hoping for more.... I guess I will chunk mine.... but I will test it first I guess...

[Bridis 319]

Every gun is different, so you could have better results. Try not to get too down on the Auto Plug before you try it, it does function.

[sapper1371usmc 107]

Bridis, what size diameter are your gas ports? My gun shot everything I had to feed it including Federal Bulk with no malfunctions at all. I shot approx 150 rnds of mixed high and low brass and I actually reduced spring pressure in the valve and it still cycled everything. My gun is a 3 holer, enlarged to .093" with polished internals.

[sapper1371usmc 107]

And it sounds like you need to either enlarge your gas ports or just try tuning the plug until it functions with bird shot. Once you have it, leave it there, no need to turn it back to the factory setting is to shoot with other loads.

[Bridis 319]

My gun's ports are factory. What size are the factory gas ports in a 3 port gun?

Edited September 20, 2010 by Bridis

[wired 27]

My gun's ports are factory. What size are the factory gas ports in a 3 port gun?

 

 

.073 ish on mine. Opening them up to .093 cured every problem the gun had.

[Sumsky 115]

So what you guys are saying is, for the TAC 47 Auto Plug to work you have to modify your Guns? I thought the reason this Auto Plug was designed, was to allow a Factory S 12 to cycle anything, or almost anything without modifications.

Edited September 20, 2010 by Sumsky

[wired 27]

So what you guys are saying is, for the TAC 47 Auto Plug to work you have to modify your Guns? I thought the reason this Auto Plug was designed, was to allow a Factory S 12 to cycle anything, or almost anything without modifications.

 

 

A gun that has ports that are too small to cycle weak low brass ammo with the factory plug on two won't cycle it with any plug. No plug will give you more gas. It just reduces the gas to cycle higher power loads without battering the gun up.

[grommit666 24]

Bridis,

 

First of all thanks for giving us this detailed early analysis of the Auto plug. The whole community is hungry for information. I have some questions about your conclusions.

 

Based on my findings, I wouldn't say that the Auto Plug is for your average every day shooter. I think it would be good for a SHTF situation, where you didn't care what type of damage was being done to your gun and needed to run all kinds of ammo without screwing with settings... I think the average shooter would be better served by a GunFixer type plug, based on reliability and the likelyhood of a shooter needing to change ammo types mid mag.

 

The Auto Plug is a neat addition to any Saiga... But for me, it fell short of what I was expecting.

Your data doesn't seem to support this. It seemed like the auto plug only really had trouble on the lowest of low brass. Remington Value Pack and Winchester Universal had the overwhelming majority of the FTEs: 1/1 with the factory plug, 2/3 with the gunfixer, and 5/6 with the auto plug. Removing them from the equation yields no FTEs with the factory plug and just 1 with gunfixer and auto.

 

Then a shooter that shoots a lot of low brass would be best served with a factory plug. Using any other type, the auto plug performed as well as the gunfixer and didn't require any adjustment. That sounds pretty sweet to me. In what way did it fall short of what you were expecting?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan boy. I bought an auto plug but haven't had a chance to try it out yet. I'm just curious.

[madmax4x4 68]

Good stuff Bridis. Did you adjust the auto plug at all to try to reduce the FTE?

 

Yes. We did have to adjust the plug to function with the reduced recoil spring and low brass shells. The Auto Plug wouldn't function reliably with the low brass shells and the factory front spring no matter how much adjusting we did.

 

Videos are coming...

That sucks I shoot bulkpack lowbrass 90% of the time. I thought it would be great as long as it worked with lowbrass and didn't give too much gas if I shot a slug or two. if it will not work well with lowbrass it is no good to me.

[clifton 354]

Good stuff Bridis. Did you adjust the auto plug at all to try to reduce the FTE?

 

Yes. We did have to adjust the plug to function with the reduced recoil spring and low brass shells. The Auto Plug wouldn't function reliably with the low brass shells and the factory front spring no matter how much adjusting we did.

 

Videos are coming...

That sucks I shoot bulkpack lowbrass 90% of the time. I thought it would be great as long as it worked with lowbrass and didn't give too much gas if I shot a slug or two. if it will not work well with lowbrass it is no good to me.

 

 

Should not have a problem with bulkpack, the plug works great with low brass. if your gun cycled it before it will cycle it now unless there is some attributing factor..

[epbullen 21]

Holy shit Bridis, amazing test. Awesome details dude, thank you!

 

 

 

 

Sounds as if I just wasted my money!....well crap....good concept...... I was hoping for more.... I guess I will chunk mine.... but I will test it first I guess...

 

 

You didn't waste your money. At all.

 

 

 

 

 

So what you guys are saying is, for the TAC 47 Auto Plug to work you have to modify your Guns? I thought the reason this Auto Plug was designed, was to allow a Factory S 12 to cycle anything, or almost anything without modifications.

 

 

A gun that has ports that are too small to cycle weak low brass ammo with the factory plug on two won't cycle it with any plug. No plug will give you more gas. It just reduces the gas to cycle higher power loads without battering the gun up.

 

 

This. Exactly. My gun with the factory spring/plug wouldn't cycle birdshot on setting 2 (Vodka Special?). I enlarged my 3 ports to .093 (3/32) and it ate everything with the factory spring/plug. Simple as that. A month later I threw on the auto plug when I got it and it, without having to adjust anything on it, also ate everything. I attribute that result to me enlarging my ports in the first place.

 

 

Edit: typo

Edited September 20, 2010 by Bullensmash

[kmoore 3]

Ok, I've looked at the actual numbers a bit more, and here's a couple of observations.

 

First, as others have said, seems like the baseline number for testing is to put factory plug in, proper setting (i.e. 2 for bird) and test.

 

A. Does it function? If not, test should be over and the gun may need some work to get it working to a baseline minimum.

B. Is there a consistent throw? And if it's not throwing consistently then we shouldn't really expect the TARGET too throw consistently, or, at least the amount of variance would be considered very normal.

 

Next, test the high-power shells with factory plug set at number 1.

 

I. Does it function? If it's not functioning with the factory plug, it's possible it will with the TARGET (it may allow more gas past).

II. Does it throw similar distance as the earlier bird shells? If not, then the new distance might be the expectation to be met/exceeded.

III. Does it create trunnion strikes? I was surprised to see that it did have strikes in Birdis' undergassed gun. Opening the ports to get bird shot to function will only increase the trunnion strikes (in frequency and in strength). Are trunnion strikes the norm?

 

Anyways, I think getting this round of testing done will help us set reasonable expectations.

 

Seeing how trunnion strikes were determined will help. We might need a way to measure the severity of trunnion strikes if it turns out they are normal?

 

Sorry to ramble, just some thoughts that I've had since reading initially.

[tim2shu 48]

I think everybody needs to remember what the gun was designed for,and light bird shot is not it.

U are all ways going to have problems trying to get anything to do something it was not designed for!

[skiboatsp 111]

Another way to enhance your test gun if it's not cycling with the auto plug is to add a choke then test again.

 

I built my own self adjusting plug, tested on several guns that cycle correctly, it would not cycle low brass, adjusted tension 1/2 turn until allmost bottomed out, very close to fully cycling the bolt but not quite.

 

Added a choke and backed of tension to starting point and vioa!! 100%

 

Used tape in rear truniun and tested high velosity buck and no truniun strikes.

 

Went back a tweeked my valve design now 100% with or without choke.

 

Make sure the base gun is properly tuned and test on more than one.

 

I believe the tac 47 plug is a very sound design and idea!!

[BpS12 512]

Shot mine today. I'm running a Bullpupped, two port "Vodka Special" with a LimbSaver pad, so I had to tune the plug down a turn and a half, but it runs the 1200fps steel shot just fine. I shot some 00Buck(1290fps), Slugs(1700fps) and a couple Magnum Slugs(1760fps) and a Sabot slug(1850fps) without a hitch. Not sure if the bolt carrier hit the rear trunion or not, maybe, but I did notice that the recoil seemed significanty lower than usual with those rounds. Also the low fps hulls landed within about 2' of me and the high fps hulls landed about 6-7' away. Usually the Magnums land 12'+. Maybe being "undergassed" has it's advantages?

 

Will try more High FPS rounds(Slugs/Magnum and Sabots) later this week.

Maybe with some tape on the trunion.

 

Regardless, it was a blast to shoot. It also now allows me to do a full barrel length Bullpup Stock with the plug and laser hidden under a removeable shroud/rail.

Edited September 21, 2010 by BpS12

[PYRO 44]

Went shooting this morning, ran 7 different types with velocities from 1290 to 1760 and after a little adjusting, the auto plug worked great as far as I can see. I have a 4 port (.093) gun, profiled & polished, with shorten barrel and mid-barrel comp. I had to tune the plug adjuster a few times and found that having it at 1 full turn tighter then how it came out of the box was the "sweet spot" for the ammo I was using and the way my gun is setup. After getting it tuned in, it ejected this ammo from 2' to 4' distances and wasn't over gassing & hitting the rear trunnion (used the blue paint's tape on it). I went through about 175 rounds all together. I know I have only used it on one trip to the range, but I am very happy with the way it works.

 

Edited September 22, 2010 by PYRO

[Bridis 319]

I just got an Alumalite barrel shroud and it will not tighten down all the way when the auto plug it installed.

 

So I put my Gunfixer back in...

 

Edited September 22, 2010 by Bridis

[Sumsky 115]

I just got a Alumalite barrel shroud and it will not tighten down all the way when the auto plug it installed.

 

So I put my Gunfixer back in...

 

 

Looks good! You decided against the holes in the shroud?