MY TAC 47 T.A.R.G.E.T. Testing

[tonyhunt 15]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Geiq0FP13uQ Edited September 24, 2010 by KillDozer

[sapper1371usmc 107]

for music

 

ONE (Metalica)

 

Good choice but I think Korn did just as good, if not, a better version of that song...

 

 

The Korn version sucks ass. They are in no way on par with Metallica.

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

for music

 

ONE (Metalica)

 

Good choice but I think Korn did just as good, if not, a better version of that song...

 

 

The Korn version sucks ass. They are in no way on par with Metallica.

 

Metallica sure seemed to enjoy it...

 

BTW, Metallica made an album called St. Anger which is almost the WORST album ever... Of course Korn didn't make anything good after Life Is Peachy so, we'll call it a draw.

 

[454496 71]

This, Big Iron (on his hip)

 

[madmax4x4 68]

Hitting the range in the am to give mine a try.

[Bridis 319]

I'm a little over a 3rd of the way through the 3rd video... Cranking some AC/DC and Metalica so far.

[Mephis 82]

Got my auto plug today and installed it! Excellent build quality and threads on much tighter than the factory plug.

 

I'll report more when I go out to shoot it, but just as a heads up, I don't have any low brass ammunition.

I stopped stocking up on it when I came to the conclusion that it seems silly to stock pile ammunition that would be useless in a SHTF situation, or could cause gun malfunctions.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Mephis

[Bridis 319]

3rd Video is done and being uploaded to YouTube. Keep your eye out for a link.

[psl sniper 963]

Got my auto plug today and installed it! Excellent build quality and threads on much tighter than the factory plug.

 

I'll report more when I go out to shoot it, but just as a heads up, I don't have any low brass ammunition.

I stopped stocking up on it when I came to the conclusion that it seems silly to stock pile ammunition that would be useless in a SHTF situation, or could cause gun malfunctions.

more for me. i cheat a little, i dump out the birdshot and replace with buckshot. only do this with federal rnds that have 1290 fps. 9 00 buck pellets @ approx 1300 ft. its actually very effective. i also have a mold to make foster slugs specificly for the federal shotcup. i got the idea from a guy in nigeria. look up making slugs from buckshot on google.

[Bridis 319]

Last but not least...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fllm9gfaORI

 

You've got to excuse this one a bit. Some of the digital video is fuxored and the editing software screwed up the processing somehow.

[waltham_41 52]

Still a good video, lot better music in my humble opinion

[Bridis 319]

I'm uploading a better version as we speak. It's over 1 gig so YouTube is taking it's sweet ass time.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Bridis

[psl sniper 963]

yes! much better. metallica and guns just seems right.

[Donkismash 81]

some proper music

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rakf-LRP0VM

[clifton 354]

i think in some ways the video does not answer all the questions,, some guns run fine some dont idk

 

Under gassed Guns, depending on how under gassed they are, Usually if your gun wont function with your factory recoil spring your gun is under gassed and probably cant cycle any low brass with any plug with your factory spring. Doing the Modifications that Bridis has done to his gun has brought his under gassed gun up to the verge of cycling with out the reduced recoil spring and the polish work, well Bridis gun would not cycle properly.

 

 

How ever, I am Glad he did his test, and with the detail he did it I would have like him to explain his weapon in a little more detail so, people who do not know the weapon would understand he has had problems in the past and needed gas service, but added a recoil spring and polishing before his weapon cycle low brass, however not taking away the condition that already existed a under gassed gun. Now I am not bashing his testing or talking shit in any way... This was a test of our plug on his gun, and that is how it turned out.

[GregM1 241]

some proper music

 

 

thats a great vid. it only reminds me how disappointed i am about tomorrow night. my brother called me up and let me know he was approved for photography for the Megadeath, Slayer, & Anthrax show at the woodlands tomorrow. he has an extra ticket, but i cant go since i have to close at work. AAAAGGGHHH!! At least I have seen all three of the bands before (not consoling in any way).

 

 

+1 Bridis. Great testing!

[Bridis 319]

This one doesn't have the processing error, but YouTube clipped me down to 480p for some reason.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGP8pnEF-zU

 

I guess I need a Premium YouTube account or something?

Edited September 26, 2010 by Bridis

[Bridis 319]

Under gassed Guns, depending on how under gassed they are, Usually if your gun wont function with your factory recoil spring your gun is under gassed and probably cant cycle any low brass with any plug with your factory spring. Doing the Modifications that Bridis has done to his gun has brought his under gassed gun up to the verge of cycling with out the reduced recoil spring and the polish work, well Bridis gun would not cycle properly.

 

 

How ever, I am Glad he did his test, and with the detail he did it I would have like him to explain his weapon in a little more detail so, people who do not know the weapon would understand he has had problems in the past and needed gas service, but added a recoil spring and polishing before his weapon cycle low brass, however not taking away the condition that already existed a under gassed gun. Now I am not bashing his testing or talking shit in any way... This was a test of our plug on his gun, and that is how it turned out.

 

TAC, when you say undergassed and mention my gun specifically it kind of sounds like you are suggesting that I am having issues that the majority of S-12 owers aren't. I'm not saying that my gun is not undergassed. But from what I've read here it doesn't seem like I'm having any issues that are out of the norm. According to these froums, S-12s were not designed to fire low brass and require a significant break-in period or some work to get it to do so.

 

Before I did this testing, the only thing I had ever fired through my gun is the federal value pack and a few winchester slugs. From the start this guns main purpose was for range fun. So I wanted it to cycle low brass rounds reliably for 3 reason. #1 To keep the cost of ammo down, #2 Increased fun factor (lots of metal down range quick) and #3 So I don't look like a douche when my gun FTEs or FTFs. I worked this gun to the point where it fired "Federal Vaule Pack" reliably. The results of all that work was a bolt mod with polish, reduced front recoil spring and Gunfixer plug. With that configuation I've put hundreds of federal value pack rounds down range without an FTE or FTF. When you advertised the Auto plug I looked at it as a great opportunity to make my gun more versatile in every possible situation. I was also very anxious to get it and show how well it worked. However, things haven't worked out that way for my gun.

 

Now please, I don't want anyone to take this as if I'm bashing TAC 47 or the Auto Plug. I also can't agree with TAC 47 enough about this being a "ONE GUN TEST". My test was how my gun and only my gun functioned with the T.A.R.G.E.T. To further explain my results I have attached a no frills video that shows an unedited version of all the low brass testing we did with the Auto plug, Gunfixer and the Factory plug. As you will see, we shot each segment in separte clips.

 

Enjoy.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoUOAqJKroU

Edited September 26, 2010 by Bridis

[clifton 354]

Bridis,

 

I am not trying to make your gun out to be the bad guy. As I would not do that, just letting people know that it has problems, and as you say I am sure that there are a number of guns that are under gassed out there, that wont work within the factory set up. some Guns dont function and have required warranted gas service thats is contracted through Cadiz Gun works. Our instructions state if your gun has gas problems, you should correct your system a gun that needs to be ghetto rigged to work has issues. Now I dont have your gun, which if I did would service it free of charge and let you know what the deal is, there is plenty of members who use a reduced recoil spring because they want to, from our email, I am under the impression that you have to. Let me say if your gun wont function Federal with a factory spring you.. most likely have a Gas issue. If it was me, I would describe my gun throughly when generally making a review, people will think that your gun is the same as theirs, its not unless theirs has gas issues in that case, they then can make a assessment from your video. If they need a reduced recoil spring and bolt polishing to make their saiga work, how even then It should still work only on the guns on the verge of not cycling may have an issue. I too am not bashing your gun, just wish it was more descriptive when reviewing ones product, I really enjoyed the videos .. maybe the music was a little bit much.. but I think you did a good job with your review and am glad you are a part of the Saiga community.

 

 

Cliff Evans

[Gibbles 23]

I would be intrested in trying it my self, I would love to not have to change gas settings when going from lowbrass birdshot to slugs or buckshot in the middle of a 3gun stage.

 

My gun worked flawless out of the box with everything except winchester VP.

 

Currently I'm running the gunfixer plug to keep the gas flow down as my gun is a bit overgassed (factory), but heck I have never had a problem with it.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Gibbles

[Bridis 319]

TAC, I haven't tried firing my gun with the factory plug and factory front recoil spring with federal low brass since I've done the bolt work. I probably should try shooting it with the factory configuration before doing any work to the gas system. I've just been content with the setup that was working and never tried anything else. I'm off work next week. Maybe I can get to the range and do a bit more testing.

 

I really appreciate your invlovment with my testing and your generous offer to do gas system work on my gun. If things still don't look like they're working right after my next range trip I will definitely contact you about the gas work.

 

Thanks again.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Bridis

[Bridis 319]

Today Sumsky and I did some more testing with my Saiga 12 to determine whether or not the gun was under/over gassed. I think that you will be able to tell form this video that my gun is not under gassed.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP0-9Q3S_-Y

 

 

 

 

[waltham_41 52]

Lets cut to the chase, the videos are fun to watch, but my question is are you satisfied with your purchase of the auto gas plug?

[Bridis 319]

The answer would have to be no, now that my testing is complete and here's why...

 

(BTW, I think it's been made perfectly clear at this point that this is a ONE GUN test and by no means a smear campaign against the Auto Plug.)

 

1. The tests I did with the Auto Plug in my gun show that it will not reliably cycle the various types of low brass with a reduced front recoil spring.

 

2. In my gun the Auto Plug would not cycle low brass with the factory front spring.

 

3. This doesn't affect many of you, but it is too long to allow my barrel shoud to tighten all the way down.

 

From my testing it seems that the Auto Plug works best in guns that are slightly overgassed. As it seems to reduce the amount of gas let into the block. That can also be seen in how the Auto Plug performed during my testing with the High Brass ammo. The Auto Plug prevented the bolt from striking the truinnion as hard as it would have with the factory plug and the Gunfixer (See result at end of High Brass test video). I think the Auto Plug would be a perfect purchase for someone who either didn't shoot low brass or has a gun that is slightly overgassed, because I think it would perform perfectly. Now again, I'm no expert. I didn't perform any complex scientific testing. I'm just your average Joe with an S-12 curious about how new products perform.

 

P.S. I'm glad you enjoyed the videos. Maybe there will be more when something new comes out.

Edited October 3, 2010 by Bridis

[hobbyshooter 59]

The answer would have to be no, now that my testing is complete and here's why...

 

2. In my gun the Auto Plug would not cycle low brass with the factory front spring.

 

Even with a tighter adjustment on the auto plug?

[gpqueen 545]

Great videos. Thanks for all your time and testing.

[Vicarious_Lee 84]

I must say, for this extensive review of TACs new product and the ultimate "I am disappoint" conclusion, Cliff and Bridis are about the two classiest people I've seen on the Internet this year. There should be an award for that, really. Bravo.

 

 

That said, It looks like the problem here is that the TAC plug, by design, cannot do what Bridis wants it to do in his particular gun, not could any other plug (theoretically). I have the Gunfixer and TACs new auto plug as well. The port design is about the same as Davidson's on the "highest " setting. The auto plug seems to be cut in a way that directs the absolute maximum amount of gas available straight into the puck, just like MDs seems to.

 

Assuming that you don't have some freak "bum" spring, the port should not open at all. So if we assume that this plug design channels the absolute maximum amount of gas from the ports into the puck in the most efficient way possible, and that the valve isn't faulty and opening at such low pressures, then we're just "out of gas".

 

If 100% of the available gas from the bulk pack stuff is getting thrown into the puck (we assume), and that's not cycling the gun, then I can't say that's the fault of the auto plug. By its very nature, the auto plug can only bleed excess gas off of the system to tame the violence of the heavy stuff. It certainly can't add gas pressure that just isn't there in the first place, right?

 

The quest of "How do I make my Saiga 12 shoot everything?" is as old as the gun itself here in the states. It's a fun quest as long as your wife doesn't find out how much you spent on it. The S12 just wasn't designed to shoot Wal-Mart birdshot. Fine, neither was my Remington 1187 Police. That stuff won't even come CLOSE to cycling it. I accept and expect that, it tells me this on the barrel.

 

I think the expectations of this plug are all wrong, IMHO. It was never designed to, and cannot be expected to, introduce more gas to the puck than "all of it". What it does is bleed gas off the hard stuff to reduce the level of violence at the receiver end. It looks like Bridis' video shows that the plug is very successful at doing this with the high brass stuff. In my gun, which is pretty overgassed, high brass shells get thrown 15 feet (I have not tested my Auto Plug at all yet, I'm talking about the factory plug).

 

So, the TAC 47 plug should not be thought of as something that will "gas up" a gun (mostly). The plug itself is a bleed-off port. It should be thought of as something that bleeds off excess gas only, and I think there's a golden opportunity here:

 

This plug should actually be thought of as something that allows you to shoot high brass loads safely in a gun that's been slicked-up and gassed-up to run low-brass loads. So, the TAC 47 plug really CAN allow your Saiga to shoot everything!!!!

 

Think about that......all you have to do is overgas the shit out of your gun so it can shoot cheap birdshot and let the TAC 47 take care of the excess gas from the heavy stuff!!!

 

One question, though:

 

1. Bridis, has your gun ever been able to shoot the cheap shit with any other plug out there and it simply cannot with this one? If so, that changes things.......

 

Thoughts? Comments? Am I an idiot? (the answer's "yes"....I just mean in the context of this discussion)

[Bridis 319]

hobbyshooter: During the first round of testing I tried to get the Auto Plug to cycle low brass with the factory front spring by tightening the adjustment screw 2.5 turns. At 2.5 turns the auto plug would not cycle low brass reliably. It was at that point I stopped testing the low brass with the factory front spring. #1 If the Auto Plug wouldn't cycle the ammo, it wasn't important to know at that time if the other plugs would and #2 I figured I was going beyond the Auto Plugs original intent by adjusting it any further. Nevermind what that adjustment would do if I then fired high brass loads.

 

Vicarious_Lee: If you watch the last video I posted you will see that my gun cycles low brass with the factory front spring while using the factory plug (Setting 2) and the Gunfixer (Setting 3). However, what you did not see (because we didn't record it) was the Gunfixer would not cycle the Winchester Univeral at all.

Edited October 3, 2010 by Bridis

[Vicarious_Lee 84]

hobbyshooter: During the first round of testing I tried to get the Auto Plug to cycle low brass with the factory front spring by tightening the adjustment screw 2.5 turns. At 2.5 turns the auto plug would not cycle low brass reliably. It was at that point I stopped testing the low brass with the factory front spring. #1 If the Auto Plug wouldn't cycle the ammo, it wasn't important to know at that time if the other plugs would and #2 I figured I was going beyond the Auto Plugs original intent by adjusting it any further. Nevermind what that adjustment would do if I then fired high brass loads.

 

Vicarious_Lee: If you watch the last video I posted you will see that my gun cycles low brass with the factory front spring while using the factory plug (Setting 2) and the Gunfixer (Setting 3). However, what you did not see (because we didn't record it) was the Gunfixer would not cycle the Winchester Univeral at all.

 

Oh. Well, that's different then, and to me can only indicate 2 possibles:

 

1. The Auto Plug is burping off gas even with the lowest of the low stuff.

 

2. Davidson's plug does a better job as a forcing cone for the gas than the Auto Plug on its highest setting.

 

I looked at both plugs after I wrote my post, and did notice that the MD plug has a smaller, tighter vent to the puck. the TAC plug could never possibly have the same profile because they have to engineer the bleed port in the middle of it.

 

I don't know shit about either firearms or engineering, but I can't figure as a layman how the factory plug works better than the TAC plug. Perhaps there's some fluid dynamics stuff in the works that is aided by the shielding of the factory plug. To a tard like me, it seems that both the MD plug and TAC's plug, by COMPLETELY unroofing and unshielding the ports from the puck AS WELL AS making a tight cone for the gas from the low-brass stuff to go DIRECTLY to the puck, would achieve the same maximal result.

 

Let me ask for clarification, Bridis: Did the GunFixer (on it's highest setting) cycle stuff that the TAC did not, and did the factory plug cycle stuff that either did not?

 

I think that question is important, because if so, then there's more physics going on in the gas chamber of our Saigas than would be obvious.

 

Very good thread, and thanks to all.

[Vicarious_Lee 84]

OOOH! Wait!

 

I just had a thought about a third possibility (been drinking, bear with me):

 

 

I need some opinions from engine builders and automotive types here.

 

Another thing I just noticed this evening while dismantling my Saiga and checking it out (before beer. Gun's put up now) is that the gas chamber is small and (obviously) finite, and the puck seems to have less than a half inch of travel before it can no longer impart its inertia onto the piston, because it's stopped, and the piston relies on whatever energy was given to it in that short distance to complete the reloading cycle on its own.

 

Now, let's say for this exercise that "Puck" actually equals "Piston" and "Piston" equals "connecting rod". Assume that this would be an internal combustion engine, except that the "piston" is not pinned to the "connecting rod".

 

Now, I think we might be dealing with what could be considered to be a "combustion chamber", albeit one that remains open to the barrel via ports throughout the cycle. More like a 2-stroke engine than a 4-stroke in that respect.

 

So....what Bridis might be dealing with here is the changing of the actual volume of the "combustion chamber".

 

Any time you raise the volume of the combustion chamber, compression ratio drops. Anytime you lower it, compression ratio increases. To me, that means that there's a greater volume of space the expanding gasses have to fill before they start shoving moving parts around. This bleeds off energy and decreases overall pressures, right? Please, correct me if I'm wrong. I don't believe I've ever dismantled an engine enough to hold a piston or con-rod in my hand in my life. Really, I'm talking theoretically here (which is another way of saying "out of my ass").

 

With that said, the smallest combustion chamber will be achieved with the stock plug. It has less cutouts to relieve the chamber and make it bigger. The MD Arms plug has more. The Auto Plug, by necessity of what it's designed to do, has even less material plugging up the chamber than either of those.

 

We already know that something can be gained by "combustion chamber design". Hell...why would the Saiga have a setting that has the cutout forcing gas into the cone for low-brass loads if it didn't? But, what if TAC has bumped up against that efficient design (again, by necessity) and increased the volume of space needed to be occupied by expanding gasses so that it reduces the overall force on the puck?

 

Bridis, your experience here will be invaluable. Maybe you don't have a "bad spring". Maybe the TAC plug has increased the "combustion chamber" in your Saiga so that the cheap shit doesn't cycle it anymore?