Izhmash Factory 8 round mags available (for now)

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

By the way, the one who wins the shootout is the one who's gun runs flawlessly and gets the most rounds accurately on target first. Good luck with those cheap Taiwanese mags.

 

I'll put my Surefire 12 shell mag in my gun, up against any mag you got, and I don't like Surefire mags...

 

To say that someone's gun will NOT function because they have a cheap mag (that works) is rather arrogant and elitist...

 

Gosh, I'm sorry you don't like your mags. I do, maybe you should try one of mine. Umm, I didn't say his gun wouldn't function. You made that up, or you can't read, which is it?.

 

 

Really, you TYPED it, and I can't read?

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Settle down, kids.

 

I think it's important to remember that none of us here is responsible for the exorbitant price of Izhmash 8-rnd Saiga 12 magazines.

 

Some find them "worth it" for ~$140/apiece. Some don't. I am in the latter camp but I don't pick fights with those who have chosen to make the financial sacrifice to own these excellent mags. I think I've made my position known on the matter.

 

Dogman: I'll fight your Izzy 8 with one of my MD20's in place

 

That's my workaround... Mike Davidson's magazines. I think we can all agree that the only US-made S-12 mags that are of equal quality to the Russian factory mags are Mike's. If he weren't developing double-stack US-made S-12 mags, I might have to just "bite the bullet" and pay the insane price that Izzy 8's go for.

 

Since I'm sitting on a stack of MD20's and a few Izzy 5's, I feel comfortable waiting for Mike to deliver. I have faith that his product(s) will perform as promised, especially since Tony Rumore has posted that he's seen and tried the prototype and gave it his thumbs-up.

 

ymmv.. but really, getting in base pissing matches with one another won't help any of us.

Edited September 29, 2010 by post-apocalyptic

[DogMan 2,343]

Dogman: I'll fight your Izzy 8 with one of my MD20's in place

 

 

 

Oh for crissake, not you too! That's totally beside the point.

 

 

 

ymmv.. but really, getting in base pissing matches with one another won't help any of us.

 

Agreed. I'm out of here.

Edited September 29, 2010 by DogMan

[psl sniper 963]

Settle down, kids.

 

I think it's important to remember that none of us here is responsible for the exorbitant price of Izhmash 8-rnd Saiga 12 magazines.

 

Some find them "worth it" for ~$140/apiece. Some don't. I am in the latter camp but I don't pick fights with those who have chosen to make the financial sacrifice to own these excellent mags. I think I've made my position known on the matter.

 

Dogman: I'll fight your Izzy 8 with one of my MD20's in place

 

That's my workaround... Mike Davidson's magazines. I think we can all agree that the only US-made S-12 mags that are of equal quality to the Russian factory mags are Mike's. If he weren't developing double-stack US-made S-12 mags, I might have to just "bite the bullet" and pay the insane price that Izzy 8's go for.

 

Since I'm sitting on a stack of MD20's and a few Izzy 5's, I feel comfortable waiting for Mike to deliver. I have faith that his product(s) will perform as promised, especially since Tony Rumore has posted that he's seen and tried the prototype and gave it his thumbs-up.

 

ymmv.. but really, getting in base pissing matches with one another won't help any of us.

i agree with every thing youve said. if you noticed i didnt go after anyone, all my post where pros and cons of the various mags out there.

EDIT: except for jpanzer and that was a different matter entirely

Edited September 29, 2010 by psl sniper

[mikegraffam 11]

hey Paulyski i will consede that the russian 8 rounders are EXCELENT mags. if... you concede that the they are overpriced.

He can concede that but it would still only be his opinion, just like it is yours. There doesn't seem to be much debate here about the supreme quality of these mags. The debate is about what they are worth, which is entirely subjective. But remember this..the marketplace has already decided what they are worth, which is the amount people are willing to pay for those that are available. Supply and demand. If that amount is out of your budget then that's understandable, but that's a lot different than saying they are not worth it, because they are. Just not to you.

 

Bleh. While I'm sure Adam Smith appreciates your love letters, this just doesn't make sense. You can't simultaneously affirm that worth is subjective to the individual, AND objectively determined by the market and the law of supply and demand. Philosophical musings about the nature of 'value' and 'worth' are not facts. There are a few other competing theories on the matter. The law of "supply and demand" is about as much a "law" as "Moore's law."

 

The only reason why a certain Marx's theory of value is now seen as emphatically false is because the main example of the theory, the USSR, went broke. Yet China sure seems to be doing fine.. and we're going broke. So, in 20 or 30 years, someone may well be looking back on Adam Smith's simplistic "supply and demand" with the same tongue-in-cheek attitude as we look on Marx's ideal that something is 'worth' the labor that went in to produce it.

 

In fact - 'things' are not necessarily 'worth' what people are willing to pay (capitalist theory) - just look at all the sub-prime mortgages that were bought up and led to our current economic woes. Nor are they worth the labor that went in to produce it (marxist theory); nor are things worth what they are being used for (anarchist theory). There are any number of other false theories too.. with just a little thought, one can find any number of examples to refute any one of them.

 

Because in reality, worth - like beauty, is subjective. It is in the eye of the beholder. There is no way to systematize it, and any long-winded exposition designed to fetter out all its features is doomed to failure.

 

..I won't reply further unless in PM, because I don't want to hijack the thread. But it genuinely bothers me how ludicrously simple ideas of economics are bandied about, right along side insanely complex abstractions. It bothers me more that this is quite common, even in formal university study of the subject.

[Chowderhead72 13]

You don't say. You just keep your philosophical musings of my goddamn lawn.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Chowderhead72

[Paulyski 2,227]

 

 

my comment ..........................

 

I'll put my Surefire 12 shell mag in my gun, up against any mag you got, and I don't like Surefire mags...

Just hope there's 2 3/4" ammo when you do that & it's not freezing cold, or you don't trip, cause then you could run into some problems.

 

Your Surefire 12s won't run heavy 3" ammo reliably. The spring can't keep up.

The company admits the preceding.

They are also prone to snapping the front off due to length causing too much force when the gun is jumping around as you fire. (especially in cold temps) Look at the slow motion Saiga thread to see how much force is throwing the gun around as you fire.

Your follower has a lot of play & tilts, so you'd have to fix it to achieve reliability.

 

All these things can lead to reliability issues.

 

A high quality MilSpec mag is prety much an insurance policy.

We who purchase them pay more so unfortunate unexpected situations are covered...

Just before they ever happen.

 

But I'll concede.

I'm full-o-shit... Russian mags are all junk.

Don't buy them & don't recommend them to your friends. I mean... Why pay more than you absolutely have to.

Go the cheap route, by all means.

 

You see, I'd rather not see everyone buying them.

First, They already sell out real quick & When they come in a surprise shipment, it's already hard at times to save up for them & get them before they sell out.

Also, the more that come in, the more likely they will be to be scrutinized.

 

It's all about justification for the purchaser.

But one simply cannot say that one is not far superior in durability, versatility & reliability to currently produced US magazines. It would be simply untrue.

 

As for Mr. Theory up there...

Theory often differs from practice due to unforeseen variables.

 

So, that being said, why don't we ask the thread be locked or vanish?

It suites both sides.

The announcement has been made, even though Oleg doesn't pay ad fees of any sort & the word's out.

Now it's just become a shit-magnet.

 

 

Just sayin'.

[tonyhunt 15]

This is a glorious troll-fest :lolol:

[frick 3]

Anybody other than me remember when the 8 round mags were the ONLY option available?

 

Anybody other than me waiting years for the domestically available mags to finally become available?

 

Anybody other than me remember gen 1's with non spring steel clips going "SHPROING!" as they disappeared into the troposhpere?

 

Anybody other than me remember polishing followers, and dusting mags with graphite so that they would work smooth enough to feed?

 

How about a time here when mentioning the wrong brand of accessory or mag would get you banned by a former mod who didn't like YOUR opinion?

 

How about a time when saying PROMAG was a sin, that would get you enough derision to leave the board in shame?

 

How about a time when (SHUDDER) Wraithmaker was your only drum option?

 

 

Seems to me, alot of folks take for granted, how easy it is to buy a new mag, made by a company that learned alot from these here forums, stick in in their gun, and after a box of shells, they seem to be the end all, and know it all, about what makes these here Saiga's tick.

 

There is a reason that the Russian 8's sell for what they do.

 

There is a reason why Russian Engineers formerly in the Gulag, spent lots of time, developing a military weapons system, that WORKS!

 

Now I got boxes of USA mags, and I gotta a whole hell of alot smaller stack of original factory 8's, that sit, unused for a reason, because, when and if the shit ever matters, they are going to be around to work, and hopefully return the investment I put into them.

 

Just like the 21, 223, 84-S Norinco mags in another box, for my chi com AK's that feed reliably with them, and not quite so with the 19 dollar Pro Mags, that ahem, sometimes fully function.

 

Yeah, they probably average out at twice the cost of the pro mags, but, better half as many that work, than twice as many as dont.

 

Its not elitist, its not class warfare, it is, what it is, and if you are happy living in the 80th percentile of the world, then by all means go for it, but if you want the highest possible chances for yourself, then, you do without other things, and get the good stuff, once.

Edited September 29, 2010 by frick

[alistar 13]

.... get the good stuff, once.

 

Its worth a hundred and four posts to hear your words of experience, sir. Thank you!

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

Paulyski, I never said my mag was better, and no, I don't like it.

 

BUT, it has ALWAYS fed 3" slugs reliably, in fact, that's what I used to break-in the gun...

 

I don't like it, but it's never failed. I'm sure there are other mags out there that are better but mine hasn't failed me yet, I don't shoot in the cold, I have a pump-action for that. I don't throw my guns around either, that's probably why I get what I paid for them or more, when I sell them...

 

I'm all for the Izzy 8-rounders, if I had the money, I'd buy one, or a hundred, but I don't. I'm still not going to go around and shit on everyone else's choices because they chose something that worked just as well for less money. The moment I personally witness my mag fail, I'll get a new mag, it will be AGP or MD from now on though...

 

...unless I can get enough money scrounged up to get a few of these Izzy's.

 

Sorry, I'm just not an elitist...

[psl sniper 963]

id only buy one as a "novelty"

[busarider 23]

Forget the mags! Did you see those SVD rifles!

[elvis christ 451]

 

 

Do you really think MD is waiting around for piles of copyright paperwork and paying lawyers countless sums of cash to sell you a doublestack magazine at "competitive" prices? He already feels screwed on the promag drum similarities and the fact it drove down the price. MD will not make that mistake again. You will pay dearly for said doublestacks; he will own the monopoly. I hope I am wrong but history teaches us otherwise.

 

 

 

I didn't want to participate in this conversation, but I feel like this warrants a response.

 

Mike has already stated that the double stack will be priced competitively to other mags already on the market, and I believe him. If they aren't, I won't buy any. If they are, I'll buy more than a few.

 

I doubt he feels 'screwed' on the promag drum, I'm sure he made a shit ton of money on the front side of the drum sales, you've got to take into account the sheer number of drums that were sold for over $200 when they first came out, not to mention the discounted pre-orders. I would imagine that most of the cost was based on R&D, time invested, mold development, etc. Once you get the molds right, you're operating on production costs only, again, an assumption.

 

So take into account that Mike spent a bunch of time and money developing the drum, sold a bunch of them for a reasonable price (more than reasonable, considering the quality and price of other drums at the time), and then cut his prices when the other drums came out, to stay competitive. I have commended his business on multiple occasions for lowering the price and undercutting the competition, because I'm sure he could sell MD20's for more than Pro-Mags, and still move plenty of product. Instead, us consumers have benefited from the market.

[kmoore 3]

The trouble with determining reliability is that you have to shoot a BUNCH of rounds in a bunch of situations to measure it. Actually, you can only estimate it with certain bands of confidence, but that gets us to statistics. Each of us has varying levels of experience with their mags.

 

My saiga is for action shooting competitions (3 gun and shotgun tactical). I've never baby'd my gear, drop it in the mud, throw the shotgun down, etc. I have an old post about dropping a mag in the mud, picking it up and putting it and a glob of mud into the shotgun, and finishing the course. I clean the shotgun when I feel like it (rarely).... I'm hard on all of my guns, but especially on the Saiga.

 

In the early days I ran 5 and 8 round mags (nothing else invented yet). Later, I added AGP mags and later WM drums. Got a few promag sticks. Lastly I got some of the MD drums that he was giving away . Eventually I'll get some 12 round surefires when I get back competing.

 

For me, aftermarket mags RARELY fail. The Promags are the worst (first generation) the AGP mags took some tuning (first generation). The WM drums have been scarey good. The MD20's have exactly 20 rounds thru one, and 40 rounds thru borrowed friends drums (not enough to comment on). If I had to guess the current level of reliability in action situations, I'd guess in the high 90's, probably 97 or 98 percent (I don't/won't currently use promags).

 

But my factory mags have NEVER failed. I don't use them anymore, the aftermarket stuff is reliable enough for competitions, so they sit in the safe.

 

Bottom line, IF I used my Saiga for HD, it would absolutely be with a factory 8. Period. But, if you can't afford one, or feel safe enough with other mags I don't really think anyone would call you outgunned or likely to loose any serious confrontation ... at least not because of poor functioning equipment.

[frick 3]

Well said Kmoore, very well said.

 

One further thought though, specifically related to the factory 8 or any high cap for home defense.

 

As an HD weapon, which, is not what I use my Saiga for, I would take the factory fives, seriously, I am no three gunner or anything, but I have been shooting since I was less old than my number of fingers, and I really don't see many scenarios where two 5's taped together, wouldn't get the job done, especially mag one being buckshot, and mag two slugs.

 

I actually keep the first weapon I bought myself as an FFL, an el cheapo Mossberg 500, with the heat shield barrel, and folding pistol grip stock. It has shot hundreds or rounds reliably, and less prone to glitches, than an auto.

 

Why? Because of liability, plain is simple.

 

We have no castle doctrine here in PA, we actually must flee, if we can, unless we are truly facing IMMINENT fear of death or serious injury.

 

And, if El Creapo, does survive a good dose of blue whistlers, I may face a civil suit, and right now, quite a few people are in that legal peril, one person, is being sued for 1 million, by the family of his victim, who was coming through his window, and he aint even there to testify, it was all a mistake!

 

Just imagine, you there on the stand, while a prosecutor, or an attorney, brings out your folding stock, pistol grip, lead spraying, assault shotgun.

 

Then, add in an illegally imported, high capacity feeding device(factory 8), or a giant donkey dick ten, or whale dick, 12 round magazine.

 

In most peoples minds, you are now guilty, by looking like a ready to kill, militia nut.

 

No way I am keeping a Saiga by the bedside, no way an AK, not even a less evil AR-15.

 

I seriously would not recommend a factory 8 for home defense use, especially if you live in a non castle doctrine state.

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

Well said Kmoore, very well said.

 

One further thought though, specifically related to the factory 8 or any high cap for home defense.

 

As an HD weapon, which, is not what I use my Saiga for, I would take the factory fives, seriously, I am no three gunner or anything, but I have been shooting since I was less old than my number of fingers, and I really don't see many scenarios where two 5's taped together, wouldn't get the job done, especially mag one being buckshot, and mag two slugs.

 

I actually keep the first weapon I bought myself as an FFL, an el cheapo Mossberg 500, with the heat shield barrel, and folding pistol grip stock. It has shot hundreds or rounds reliably, and less prone to glitches, than an auto.

 

Why? Because of liability, plain is simple.

 

We have no castle doctrine here in PA, we actually must flee, if we can, unless we are truly facing IMMINENT fear of death or serious injury.

 

And, if El Creapo, does survive a good dose of blue whistlers, I may face a civil suit, and right now, quite a few people are in that legal peril, one person, is being sued for 1 million, by the family of his victim, who was coming through his window, and he aint even there to testify, it was all a mistake!

 

Just imagine, you there on the stand, while a prosecutor, or an attorney, brings out your folding stock, pistol grip, lead spraying, assault shotgun.

 

Then, add in an illegally imported, high capacity feeding device(factory 8), or a giant donkey dick ten, or whale dick, 12 round magazine.

 

In most peoples minds, you are now guilty, by looking like a ready to kill, militia nut.

 

No way I am keeping a Saiga by the bedside, no way an AK, not even a less evil AR-15.

 

I seriously would not recommend a factory 8 for home defense use, especially if you live in a non castle doctrine state.

 

 

Wow, this is good stuff.

 

I practice many of these tactics. While I DO load up the Saiga at night, I also use the factory five-rounder for the same reason as stated above, when they bring it out in front of the jury, it looks the same way it did when I bought it and pulled it out of the box...

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Well said Kmoore, very well said.

 

One further thought though, specifically related to the factory 8 or any high cap for home defense.

 

As an HD weapon, which, is not what I use my Saiga for, I would take the factory fives, seriously, I am no three gunner or anything, but I have been shooting since I was less old than my number of fingers, and I really don't see many scenarios where two 5's taped together, wouldn't get the job done, especially mag one being buckshot, and mag two slugs.

 

I actually keep the first weapon I bought myself as an FFL, an el cheapo Mossberg 500, with the heat shield barrel, and folding pistol grip stock. It has shot hundreds or rounds reliably, and less prone to glitches, than an auto.

 

Why? Because of liability, plain is simple.

 

We have no castle doctrine here in PA, we actually must flee, if we can, unless we are truly facing IMMINENT fear of death or serious injury.

 

And, if El Creapo, does survive a good dose of blue whistlers, I may face a civil suit, and right now, quite a few people are in that legal peril, one person, is being sued for 1 million, by the family of his victim, who was coming through his window, and he aint even there to testify, it was all a mistake!

 

Just imagine, you there on the stand, while a prosecutor, or an attorney, brings out your folding stock, pistol grip, lead spraying, assault shotgun.

 

Then, add in an illegally imported, high capacity feeding device(factory 8), or a giant donkey dick ten, or whale dick, 12 round magazine.

 

In most peoples minds, you are now guilty, by looking like a ready to kill, militia nut.

 

No way I am keeping a Saiga by the bedside, no way an AK, not even a less evil AR-15.

 

I seriously would not recommend a factory 8 for home defense use, especially if you live in a non castle doctrine state.

 

 

Wow, this is good stuff.

 

I practice many of these tactics. While I DO load up the Saiga at night, I also use the factory five-rounder for the same reason as stated above, when they bring it out in front of the jury, it looks the same way it did when I bought it and pulled it out of the box...

 

Indeed, good points, frick. I use a couple factory 5's for HD simply because they are the most maneuverable, (shortest), mags I've got, they've never shown any sign of failing or malfunctioning in any way, and if I need more than 5, (10), rounds of buckshot, I'm in shit deep enough that a few more shells ain't gonna make a difference.

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

If I need more than five rounds then I just step back, where the wife will be standing to my left with the Mossberg 500 7+1...

[Joseph 141]

This post was full of WIN.

 

Glad now that things are setting down we can look back and laugh at how crazy we all sounded just a few years ago.

 

Back in a time when people believe in economic collapses and double stack magizines for the saiga 12.

 

it was a simpler time then, hell,

 

we were simpler people.

 

buying 140$$ magizines for a shotgun as insurance incase of warlock and or terimator atacks.

 

i miss the good ole days.

 

oh well.. back to work in a stable job in a stable economy

Edited March 12, 2012 by ZombieJefferson

[Mullet Man 2,114]

oh well.. back to work in a stable job in a stable economy

 

 

 

com·pla·cen·cy

 

noun, plural -cies.

1.

a feeling of quiet pleasure or security, often while unaware of some potential danger, defect, or the like; self-satisfaction or smug satisfaction with an existing situation, condition, etc.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Mullet Man

[alistar 13]

Zombie, thanks for bringing me back to those good old days. It was simpler then. Gosh, people could just decide if the price was reasonable for their purposes, and the market was there. Considering the cost of skeet rounds over the past 4 years has totalled more than four times the cost of my Tromix, I never thought that the cost of one or two of these was prohibitive.

 

Yet, even at prices that some believed excessive, K-var doesn't seem to be able to get any more and Oleg has taken them off his site. Promises of a domestic source have never materialized, and next year at this time I suspect the situation will be the same.

Edited March 12, 2012 by alistar

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

Wow, straight from Caged's "dark period" odd how new guys are always trying to prove something huh?

LMAO!

NECROTHREAD!

[saltydecimator 482]

holy shit, not trying to be a ball luster here, but pauly is battin a million, and i didnt finish teh first page!!!

 

epic thread!

 

"perfection in a stick, streetsweepin, and 1 handing saigas" all in one thread!!!

[lbsrdi 1,078]

If the Russian military is using magwells is it possible that they may stop making these altogether?

[Joseph 141]

If the Russian military is using magwells is it possible that they may stop making these altogether?

 

it's possible but that could be bad news,

 

9/10 saiga 12 fourm member studies indicate that all other magizines are unreliable AND

 

utterly ineffect at stoping most normal threats such as aliens and robots

[havok 21]

They will keep making them, Izhmash sell's more then 1 type of saiga shotgun with and without a magwell. Rusmilitary has them listed as april eta but all of his shippment are alway's late from Izhmash.

[kamyak 14]

What is the price of 8-round mag for S-12 with magwell in USA?

And is there a difference in price between the mags made by Izhmash and made by MOLOT?

I can explain my question - in Moscow MOLOT's mag costs about $40, Izhmash - $70-80. And they have the same quality.

[ScuseMePrincess 23]

What is the price of 8-round mag for S-12 with magwell in USA?

And is there a difference in price between the mags made by Izhmash and made by MOLOT?

I can explain my question - in Moscow MOLOT's mag costs about $40, Izhmash - $70-80. And they have the same quality.

 

You know, you could probably make quite a bit of cash off those if you started selling them to people in the USA on the side. lol

[kamyak 14]

I'm not going to sell mags to people in the USA, I just wanted to know your prices.

And I'm not sure that sending weapon parts outside the country is permitted by our custom laws. I'll check it.