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Long story short - undergassed, workin on it!


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OK so I posted before all about getting my barrel shortened by Vankiller (thanks Tom!) at Cadiz Gun Works, He did nice work and opened my 3 port S12 from .83 to .91 I think it was and permanently attached a Chaos Warthog with barrel nut. I also have the heavier firing pin and a Kross tri rail with Larue forward grip and FenixTA30 on a 5 position mount. A folding stock with .5 in pad and Larue QD strap and long and folded mounting positions. Anyway I digress, since having the barrel shortened she just wont cycle the cheep wallmart feds anymore and did before just barely, so opening the ports wasnt enough. Spent most of all night polishing all the contact points, thoroughly cleaning, and put on my new TAC 47 (thanks Keith!) self regulator. I tried it briefly earlier but didn't help. Just not enough gas to work with. So anyway Ive been carefully carving around the three ports to be sure there's no blockage and slightly rounding the openings. If all this still fails to work Im either going to drill open one of the ports from the outside or add another one or two small ports. Hopefully get the chance to test today but Im looking for anyone cool around the Fort that has a place to shoot that would care to do so?!!! I cant drive very far cause Im really poor right now, my S12 ( and SGL21) is the most valuable thing I own probly tied with my truck! May as well add it has the DPH stock,Saigatech trigger guard, Tromix bolt on charging handle,self-cut safety, I think a CAA grip, Cobra heat shield, KZ and Ace strap mounts, magpul rail guards and a twister puck which Ive read of them causing probs but I really think it was an improvement! If I could get alot more gas flowing Id like to use a twister magnum! Thanks to all the vendors and members who have helped my make my favorite gun of my little collection - of course still waiting for DS mags and a LRBHO with left side release, a fresh paint job and maybe I'll be done but just gotta figure this gas out because I just cant afford to shoot the cool stuff :( so any other ideas/ suggestions? If I get to shoot today I'll post the results! Thanks all- peace out!

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You say you think the twister puck improved, but didn't give any explanation as to why you came to that conclusion.

 

I recommend you grease up the rails, bolt lugs, and bolt lug channels, put the factory puck in and verify it can travel freely (sometimes the gas cylinder can get gunk caked on the walls and cause the puck to drag), and put the factory gas cam in on setting 2. Try firing it like that, and if it doesn't cycle try unscrewing the gas cam 1 full rotation.

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You say you think the twister puck improved, but didn't give any explanation as to why you came to that conclusion.

 

I recommend you grease up the rails, bolt lugs, and bolt lug channels, put the factory puck in and verify it can travel freely (sometimes the gas cylinder can get gunk caked on the walls and cause the puck to drag), and put the factory gas cam in on setting 2. Try firing it like that, and if it doesn't cycle try unscrewing the gas cam 1 full rotation.

By improved I meant the shells seemed to eject just a hair further seemed to feel a little better but Im frikn crazy so who knows lol. I really like the concept of the twisters have a set of all three but just using standard for now,(if I start gettin drill crazy Ill probly try the magnum puck. actually sold my factory plug. But anyway yeah I spent like 5 hours last night sanding and polishing all the internals -rails, bolt, etc,etc... The twister is moving free you can hear it tilt when u move the gun. I had to do the un-rotate the factory gas plug thing for mine to work before but just got the Tac47 auto plug so wanna get er goin with it! I spent a long time getting some material cleared around the gas ports the front two seems slightly blocked so Im really hopin between that and all the polishing Ill be set, dont mean I will be though

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vivian - I remember your gun (how can you forget that color). Im not under the current employ at CGW, but i was at the time that your gun came through, and I recall that your gun was made to work with the factory gas puck.

 

see if you can locate a factory puck and try that, also make sure you arent firing from a limp shoulder or body posture like i see so many videos of people here doing all the time. especially with the light loads, you shouldnt be getting kicked around much, if at all. Im not saying that you are pussy firing it, but with the amount of content I see around here of people that are, make sure you arent...well, blah blah. you get my point.

 

factory puck if you arent shooting like a girl, though. your gun cycled with federal 1 1/8oz before it left....or you can increase the gas for using the pucks you have there, I suppose. its your gun though, and invreasing the gas at this point will put it beyond specification that has been approved by the factory in Russia.

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............. also make sure you arent firing from a limp shoulder or body posture like i see so many videos of people here doing all the time. especially with the light loads, you shouldnt be getting kicked around much, if at all. Im not saying that you are pussy firing it, but with the amount of content I see around here of people that are, make sure you arent...well, blah blah. you get my point.

 

factory puck if you arent shooting like a girl, though. your gun cycled with federal 1 1/8oz before it left....

:lolol:

 

3 ports @ .093 (3/32) as Tom has posted here in the past.

Federal #6 low brass target loads.

 

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How short is the barrel? Does it have a perm attached brake on it to be legal? I cut one of my S12s to 18 1/8" and rethreaded it. It runs Universal and Multi-purpose 100%. I have 4 ports at .093".

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As Bvamp said "Put the stock puck back in". I had reliability issues with mine, put the stock puck back in and bam works GREAT. My gun even cycles 1oz winchester. I wish I was back in MI so I could help. I was only about and hour from you.

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OK so I got to try a few shots today, Keith at Tac47 said to turn the adjuster in 4.5 turns so I tried that but even after all my work I did to her the other night it still wasnt even barely trying to eject the cheapy federals, I tried a few Remington sluggers and they cycled ok. Alot of people are saying go back to the stock puck but I already sold it and I really would like to get it going with the twister pucks instead anyway, if anything I'd like to get it over-gassed enough to just use the magnum puck and let the auto plug manage the rest.

So...thinkin of makin my 3 port a 4 or 5 port!

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OK so I got to try a few shots today, Keith at Tac47 said to turn the adjuster in 4.5 turns so I tried that but even after all my work I did to her the other night it still wasnt even barely trying to eject the cheapy federals, I tried a few Remington sluggers and they cycled ok. Alot of people are saying go back to the stock puck but I already sold it and I really would like to get it going with the twister pucks instead anyway, if anything I'd like to get it over-gassed enough to just use the magnum puck and let the auto plug manage the rest.

So...thinkin of makin my 3 port a 4 or 5 port!

I really urge you to get a KA puck then. My gun does NOT cycle with the twister puck. It causes more problems then there worth. I have done all the things you have to your saiga, my gun even cycles x lite 1oz winchester target loads. Kings armory will replace your twister puck with one of there for free, that's how much they stand behind there product. I really really think this will solve your problems. check out this link http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=58124&pid=559296&st=30entry559296

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Do attempt to avoid overgassing.

Carriers & pushrods aren't readily available.

 

If you end up overgassing though & do break the carrier, you may be able to get a stouter pushrod spun from 4140 tool steel on a lathe, then weld it all up to the carrier.

 

Whatever you do, try to avoid the mindset of "I'm gonna get this done once & for all" and do a little at a time, till you get it humming well.

 

No comment's on the puck other than I wouldn't try to build a gun around an aftermarket puck.

 

Good luck! :beer:

Edited by Paulyski
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VHood,

 

Take all the extra stuff off of your gun.

 

Get back (as close as possible ) to factory configuration.

 

By adding all that extra WEIGHT your weapon is bogged down.

 

S12's are known to not like all the extra ( hood ornament ) crap.

 

 

post-26540-080421700 1286589345_thumb.jpeg

 

 

 

Put your Factory hand guard back on.

 

Buy another Factory Puck.

 

 

Looks are just that ......looks. GO back to simple and clean.............your weapon will thank you.

 

 

 

Frosty

Edited by Frosty
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Hey Paulyski,

 

Would you be able to post a picture that you have of your S12.............the one in the case with sexy wood furniture.

 

This picture is the best for clean lines as far as I am concerned.

 

By the way Paulyski, Where did you get that fine wood anyway?

 

 

Best

Frosty

Edited by Frosty
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Hey Paulyski,

Would you be able to post a picture that you have of your S12.............the one in the case with sexy wood furniture.

This picture is the best for clean lines as far as I am concerned.

Thanks. :blush:

 

I'll compress everything, since I really don't wanna hijack dude's thread... Just click below.

 

 

Done1.jpg

S-129mm25yd1.jpg

AllMags1.jpg

 

 

By the way Paulyski, Where did you get that fine wood anyway?

 

 

Best

Frosty

They were mustard colored Russian takeoffs.

 

2s1.jpg

 

 

To match my finish, Sand it all down to bare wood. Make sure there's no old color or varnish, or it' won't absorb the new.

Finish-sand it down last with at least 240 grit.

 

Then take Minwax Red Mohogany stain & put a really heavy coat on it, then let it hang & dry for a couple days Then softly wipe off the excess. Add another coat & let it dry at least a week. Buff it, removing the really, thick areas with the finest steel wool you can find.

Then get Minwax helmsman high gloss Spar Urethane in a spray can. Spray a rather heavy coat (but not enough to form drip marks) & let it dry for around 2 weeks....

 

That's it.

 

This can be done with any condition, or mix & match takeoff stocks, being as you sand it to bare wood first.

I have extensive experience in printing & matching colors, so I applied it to matching my PG.

S6300528.jpg

 

Edited by Paulyski
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Paulyski,

 

Thank You.

I really have to say that S12 you have is a clean looking weapon.

 

No extra crap,............. No lights,............. No GOD FORSAKEN RAILS.......................nothing but gun.

My AR 15's are same.

My AK's are the same.

It pisses my friends to no end that my weapons are so plain............................and out shoot their asses.

 

I appreciate the information about the process and the supplies needed.

 

I have some wood take offs myself.

 

I will use your recipe.

 

Damn...............I never get tired of looking at that shot gun in the case............thanks again.

 

Sorry VHood, I did not mean to hijack. I hope we guided and helped you.

 

 

Time for bed.

Frosty

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There's a discussion in the TAC 47 Auto Plug test that Bridis posted about it not letting him cycle the cheap crap. I think the volume of the gas chamber, despite more functional design and direction of the ports and cuts to put as much gas on the puck as possible, might be playing a role.

 

This may be the case for you. I think that the gas chamber might be analogous to a cars combustion chamber, in that both the design and volume might be a factor.

 

Our Saigas were not designed to shoot everything under the sun in a shotshell, neither was my Remington 1187 Police, so we accept that. It says so on the barrel. However, making our Saigas run everything, and modding the shit out of them, is pretty much the fun of the whole thing anyway.

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How can it be the puck if it worked before shortening the barrel with the same puck, a twister standard? Seem more like the reduction of length would reduce the gas level because of less back-pressure? I am totally just guessing here and just trying to think logically lol after being up like 3 days lol So more openings for all the gas it can grab would be a logical fix or probly even better but far more complicated would be a shortened gas tube but thats not an option for me here. As far as all the Xtra stuff hanging off my weapon, I love the Kross tri-rail system, and my Cobra heat shield, and my Larue QD forward grip and My Fenix! And my Warthog! This is my sleep with home defense system and favorite toy all in one. Its short enough now with the stock folded to easily maneuver all through my apartment and light up or blow up a whole room as needed! When in nightly ready mode its Federal #000 copper plated buckshot magnums and she sure doesn't have any problem ejecting those bad dogs! But I cant be out plinkin around with those!

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With the shorter barrel your 'dwell time' (the time that there is pressure at the gas port) goes down substantially. You probably should get a factory-type puck to minimize the amount of initial volume that has to be pressurized. A lot of people with short Saigas run our KA-SG01A tappet with excellent results, but I can't guarantee that you don't have other issues as well. If you'd like, I can send you a sample KA-SG01A to try in it and see if it fixes your problem. The gasport size sounds about right, so I don't think you're having a problem there, I just think your dwell time is too short for your current setup. I've had to open some 3-port shorties up to .094", but I really hate going that large on the ports if it isn't necessary, it lets more crud in the gas system. I would recommend trying a different tappet and/or putting a slightly lighter recoil spring on.

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How can it be the puck if it worked before shortening the barrel with the same puck, a twister standard? Seem more like the reduction of length would reduce the gas level because of less back-pressure? I am totally just guessing here and just trying to think logically lol after being up like 3 days lol So more openings for all the gas it can grab would be a logical fix or probly even better but far more complicated would be a shortened gas tube but thats not an option for me here.

 

Call me crazy, but I think there's a reason that most "pistons" throughout christendom have had horizontally running channels, whether they had piston rings or not.

The puck you're running has 1 horizontally running channel (good for compression) & a bunch of vertical channels that allow gas to pass by. (bad for compression)

 

The pistons with 2 horizontally running channels, not only create a better seal when clean (being as they lack the many escape paths of your piston) but when the horizontally running groves fill up with crap, this crap acts like an engine's piston rings.

 

One thing I'm curious about, is if you are correct about what Tom opened your ports up to?

I have read in his past posts that a 3 port 19" gun is supposed to be ported @ .093 approximately (3/32")

Edited by Paulyski
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I considered the lighter recoil spring but that just seems like its more for light loads only and Im trying for the largest range possible. I double checked his letter and Tom Cole opened the 3 ports to .093 , I opened up the material around the back 2 holes because it seemed as though they were partially hidden. In examining the opening on the Tac47 regulator and the space free in that area around the ports it looks like plenty of room for more holes, I was thinking starting very small and working my way up till it was gettin gassed up, In an X pattern. Thanks for the puck offer, I may just try that before drilling away at shit!

Edited by vinnivanhood
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Just out of curiosity, how much SOLID barrel length do you have from the face of a colsed bolt?

 

 

A lot of people with short Saigas run our KA-SG01A tappet with excellent results, but I can't guarantee that you don't have other issues as well. If you'd like, I can send you a sample KA-SG01A to try in it and see if it fixes your problem.

I like the design of your piston.

 

pix473598053.jpg

 

I like the somewhat sharp edges.

The edges of the factory puck are 90 degrees and have a slight edge. I don't like how the Tapco's edge is rounded... once again, not too good for compression & I could see a rounded edge being problematic as wadding/powder builds up, while a sharper edge would self clean.

 

Are there any vendors here that sell your piston?

I would think they should.

Edited by Paulyski
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The pistons with 2 horizontally running channels, not only create a better seal when clean (being as they lack the many escape paths of your piston) but when the horizontally running groves fill up with crap, this crap acts like an engine's piston rings.

 

Those rings when empty actually act as pressure seals. The effect doesnt last long but its long enough for the puck to cycle. Filled with gunk would actually defeat the effect. It has to do with the high pressure gas escaping through the tiny gap between the puck and gas block hitting the larger volume of low pressure in the empty ring. Ive tried to remember the name of the effect but it is just escaping me. Basically the turbulence and pressure has to equalize before it can move on past that ring. Two rings doubles the effect. Im betting there is no real pressure loss past the puck during the time it takes to cycle. Only on the trip back is the gas finally escaping to the piston side.

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The pistons with 2 horizontally running channels, not only create a better seal when clean (being as they lack the many escape paths of your piston) but when the horizontally running groves fill up with crap, this crap acts like an engine's piston rings.

 

Those rings when empty actually act as pressure seals. The effect doesnt last long but its long enough for the puck to cycle. Filled with gunk would actually defeat the effect. It has to do with the high pressure gas escaping through the tiny gap between the puck and gas block hitting the larger volume of low pressure in the empty ring. Ive tried to remember the name of the effect but it is just escaping me.

Is it related to venturi? :unsure:

 

But once the groove fill, a seal is formed like with piston rings & when crap seals up the gas plug's threads, a borderline gun tops out in my experience.

 

My gun at one point, needed to be warmed up with a few mags to dirty up the system before it became fairly dependable. That was back when I was borderline under-gassed.

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Just out of curiosity, how much SOLID barrel length do you have from the face of a colsed bolt?

 

 

A lot of people with short Saigas run our KA-SG01A tappet with excellent results, but I can't guarantee that you don't have other issues as well. If you'd like, I can send you a sample KA-SG01A to try in it and see if it fixes your problem.

I like the design of your piston.

 

pix473598053.jpg

 

I like the somewhat sharp edges.

The edges of the factory puck are 90 degrees and have a slight edge. I don't like how the Tapco's edge is rounded... once again, not too good for compression & I could see a rounded edge being problematic as wadding/powder builds up, while a sharper edge would self clean.

 

Are there any vendors here that sell your piston?

I would think they should.

I think Tac 47 industries is the only vendor I found that carries the KA puck

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Obturation.

 

The pistons with 2 horizontally running channels, not only create a better seal when clean (being as they lack the many escape paths of your piston) but when the horizontally running groves fill up with crap, this crap acts like an engine's piston rings.

 

Those rings when empty actually act as pressure seals. The effect doesnt last long but its long enough for the puck to cycle. Filled with gunk would actually defeat the effect. It has to do with the high pressure gas escaping through the tiny gap between the puck and gas block hitting the larger volume of low pressure in the empty ring. Ive tried to remember the name of the effect but it is just escaping me. Basically the turbulence and pressure has to equalize before it can move on past that ring. Two rings doubles the effect. Im betting there is no real pressure loss past the puck during the time it takes to cycle. Only on the trip back is the gas finally escaping to the piston side.

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OP,

How long is the barrel?

 

You said 'twister' puck earlier. If it is a copy of the factory puck, then it is not called a 'twister' puck. It is a GoGun standard puck. Accurate product description is necessary for us to assist. I have a standard GoGun puck and it is not problematic. I think you need another port. All of mine have 4 @ .093" and I run the shit out of them when I get the opportunity. I have had no problems with "overgassing". Good luck.... and how long is the barrel?

 

As someone previously said, you should put all of the factory parts back on that you can, fire the weapon and see what happens. If it doesn't run, you need a port or some friction reduction. If it runs with the factory parts, one of your aftermarket parts is causing the failures. Re-install one aftermarket item at a time and fire the weapon. Repeat until it doesn't cycle reliably and you will know what the problem is.

Edited by evlblkwpnz
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Unless I read one of the post wrong it sounds like a member here remembers working on your gun and says it was designed to run with the stock Puck. I would take king a up on his offer and see if that works before I busted out the tools. That's just me though. Good luck

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OP,

How long is the barrel?

 

You said 'twister' puck earlier. If it is a copy of the factory puck, then it is not called a 'twister' puck. It is a GoGun standard puck. Accurate product description is necessary for us to assist. I have a standard GoGun puck and it is not problematic. I think you need another port. All of mine have 4 @ .093" and I run the shit out of them when I get the opportunity. I have had no problems with "overgassing". Good luck.... and how long is the barrel?

 

As someone previously said, you should put all of the factory parts back on that you can, fire the weapon and see what happens. If it doesn't run, you need a port or some friction reduction. If it runs with the factory parts, one of your aftermarket parts is causing the failures. Re-install one aftermarket item at a time and fire the weapon. Repeat until it doesn't cycle reliably and you will know what the problem is.

I had Cadiz Gun Works cut and permanently mount a Chaos Warthog for total length of 18.25" and yes by twister I did mean the GoGun standard and I think that fourth port youve got would do the trick in mine but I may try the King puck first? And as far as everything else all I had done was the barrel (and the 3 ports opened) and it was fine before (yes with the GoGun Standard) so its just a gas issue because of the shorter barrel.

Edited by vinnivanhood
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I had Cadiz Gun Works cut and permanently mount a Chaos Warthog for total length of 18.25"

If a gun with a solid 19" of barrel requires 3 ports @ 3/32, then your gun technechally has 15" to 16" of solid barrel, so logic would dictate that you need another small port to be as reliable as it was before cutting the barrel.

 

I'd send it back to Cadiz if the KA puck doesn't fix your problem, or add another tiny port & work your way up from there.

However try not to enlarge the hole in the gas block in the direction of the breech. You don't wanna render your plug ineffective.

Some race gun builders have just enlarged 1 port to 7/64ths... But others will say they don't want to make large ports, so they would add the 4th.

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I had Cadiz Gun Works cut and permanently mount a Chaos Warthog for total length of 18.25"

If a gun with a solid 19" of barrel requires 3 ports @ 3/32, then your gun technechally has 15" to 16" of solid barrel, so logic would dictate that you need another small port to be as reliable as it was before cutting the barrel.

 

I'd send it back to Cadiz if the KA puck doesn't fix your problem, or add another tiny port & work your way up from there.

However try not to enlarge the hole in the gas block in the direction of the breech. You don't wanna render your plug ineffective.

Some race gun builders have just enlarged 1 port to 7/64ths... But others will say they don't want to make large ports, so they would add the 4th.

yeah I think I need another small port too, problem is the angle, would like to just drill it without any disassemble but it'd be at the wrong angle. I was thinking more two more very small ports forming an X pattern but taking the gas block off to drill at proper angle sounds rough! Need some kind of micro back angled drill!

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