Real world field test w/ x39 on deer

[my762buzz 141]

Don't laugh I've found both these rifle's to be very accurate and reliable. The savage isn't much to look at but the Mauser m-98 from the F-N factory is a real thing of beauty.

 

That is the grandfather of all bolt rifle designs. I got a heavy barrel varmint 700 that can consistently blow small black olives up at 100 yards with match .308 ammo.

Edited October 26, 2010 by my762buzz

[Bug Splat 2]

Great info guys. Just placed an order for a few hundred Classic HP rounds. Didn't know classic and black box were so different. I don't plan on hunting with it but for Zombies, I want the better of the two.

 

Did you order the 124 hp? Classic 8m3 hp 124 gr has been used for a couple of years but recently wolf made some changes and I have not seen the latest batches.

If they are 124 gr then I would bet it stayed the same.

 

Yup, 124gr

 

Should be here next week

[my762buzz 141]

Yup, 124gr

 

Should be here next week

 

Its got the widest hole and special inner jacket slots. You can actually feel the precut slots inside the jacket by taking a paperclip inside the hole and sliding it along the inner jacket.

 

Edited October 27, 2010 by my762buzz

[jimmyhayes 11]

I've never owned a 700 but if the U.S.of A. thought it was good enough for their sniper's I thought it was worth checking out. The M-98 just has those 3 locking lugs and that has always seemed so impressive to me along side that massive claw type extractor, but those guns are hard to find these days, far as I know you gotta go used and even then they're hard to find. The dealer has the 700 new for $550.00 as a base price. Small black olives are an excellent choice for 100yd. target,never thought of that, but I believe I'd go with the pimento stuffed, for better visibility,and you could still use the olives for a salad if you hit dead center. What do ya think???

[Nailbomb 10,221]

My stomping grounds are best described and dense forested swamp. Getting a shot beyond 100 yards is all but impossible, and a good brush gun is key.

 

A friend of mine used my x39 last year with wolf black box HP and at 50 yards the fragmentation was incredible, but it destroyed a entire shoulder, so no meat from that part.

[my762buzz 141]

My stomping grounds are best described and dense forested swamp. Getting a shot beyond 100 yards is all but impossible, and a good brush gun is key.

 

A friend of mine used my x39 last year with wolf black box HP and at 50 yards the fragmentation was incredible, but it destroyed a entire shoulder, so no meat from that part.

 

Did the bullet fragment against the shoulder joint or are you refering to fragmentation of bones? A shoulder hit and then on to the heart would be good way to drop a deer.

Can't run on a broken shoulder. No tracking required.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

My stomping grounds are best described and dense forested swamp. Getting a shot beyond 100 yards is all but impossible, and a good brush gun is key.

 

A friend of mine used my x39 last year with wolf black box HP and at 50 yards the fragmentation was incredible, but it destroyed a entire shoulder, so no meat from that part.

 

Did the bullet fragment against the shoulder joint or are you refering to fragmentation of bones? A shoulder hit and then on to the heart would be good way to drop a deer.

Can't run on a broken shoulder. No tracking required.

Nope, no bone, meat, both lungs, and more meat. the meat on the far side had a hole in it I could fist. the lead stayed together leaving a .30 cal hole front and back side, but the jacket shrapneled everywhere. it was deceptive to see the small entrance and exit hole and find a huge internal cavity.

 

And yeah, he hit it in a run and it just kindof fell straight into its face and stayed there. He was quite happy with the results.

 

I can't speak for brown bear, or even how black box handles at longer ranges. But frankly I've seen good results from less than 100 yards.

[my762buzz 141]

Nope, no bone, meat, both lungs, and more meat. the meat on the far side had a hole in it I could fist. the lead stayed together leaving a .30 cal hole front and back side, but the jacket shrapneled everywhere. it was deceptive to see the small entrance and exit hole and find a huge internal cavity.

 

 

The tumbling act at over 2000 fps probably helped quite a bit. The same tumbling act at 275 yards not so much.

Someone posting at theakforum hunting deer with 5.45 posted his new deer kill thread. In the past, he used FMJ and it tumbled with an exit hole.

The latest thread he used the new hornady 5.45 vmax and no exit hole but he did show pictures of the fragments that made it to the opposite side and lodged just under the hide.

I sort of think a .30 caliber bullet that can separate into two long halves at impact would work on deer at much farther distances. The segmented .22lr bullets seem to offer enhanced effect by the same mechanism.

[BrutalGardener 205]

My stomping grounds are best described and dense forested swamp. Getting a shot beyond 100 yards is all but impossible, and a good brush gun is key.

 

A friend of mine used my x39 last year with wolf black box HP and at 50 yards the fragmentation was incredible, but it destroyed a entire shoulder, so no meat from that part.

 

Did the bullet fragment against the shoulder joint or are you refering to fragmentation of bones? A shoulder hit and then on to the heart would be good way to drop a deer.

Can't run on a broken shoulder. No tracking required.

 

Oh... they can run with a shattered shoulder... no very far, but they can. Speaking from personal experience here. Tough critters.

[imarangemaster 315]

Well, at the risk of letting the cat out of the bag, Widener's has Wolf Military Classic 124 grn HP (8M3) for $4.69/20. I order 500 today for $121.00 delivered. ($25@ $4.29/20). I should have it Monday or Tuesday.If you order 1,000 rounds (50 boxes), it is $200/1,000. I spent about 3 hours surfing the net yesterday and they have the best price. I wish I had enough to get another 500, but I don't expect to shoot too many zombies or goblins. Besides, I have 5 or 6 hundred of the Uly from Wally World.

[jimmyhayes 11]

I'd love to get it on that deal but I'm committed to a .41 mag with this go round of extra cash although I'll hang on to the info for future reference.

[imarangemaster 315]

I remember a thread from another forum about 2 or 3 years ago where I guy was knocking the piss out off big-ass wild boar and feral hogs with an AK using the Russian HP 8M3 bullet. If I remember right, he bought it in a generic white box just marked 7.62x39 HP made in Russia, or something like that. He had pictures of what it did to the hogs, and I was impressed. I didn't realize until now that the Wolf Military Classic HP was the same 8M3 bullet.

[jimmyhayes 11]

I really don't know what went wrong with my hunt? After close examination of the deer there was so little damage. I know the range was at the supposed outside limits of the caliber, but the dispatch shot was only 4' away and even then it was pathetic in that the recovered bullet was intact save the folding over of the hollow point tip.I'm still looking for that round so I can post pic's. I bought 500rnds of that brown bear ammo,while it was very accurate I believe the members of this site who all seem to be in agreement that it was the hp performance that was to blame and sp bullet should've been used. There have been at least one person who placed the blame on me alone which is OK but I've been completely honest with all and had I simply placed poor shots I would've admitted it. Maybe I got part of a run of ammo that was lacking in the one of the component parts used in the manufacturing process? I've also shot wolf ammo through this rifle along with golden tiger and all of it produced damn good accuracy and flawless functioning. I once bought the famed Jack O'Conner mdl. 70 win. (.270 of course) and shot a spike black-tail deer at about 100yrds, it went down floundered around for a while and got back up as soon as it did I sent another round right to the base of the skull and it was over. When I skinned him out I found the first shot had gone through both lungs and hit a rib going out the other side. That exit shot jellied that entire shoulder when it contacted the rib. I know plenty of people swear by the .270 but I sold mine based on that one hunt. My point is this the .270 devastated that animal and it got up, if that can happen then so can the scenario I've described in this post. Nothing works perfectly every or all the time.

[dobravery 49]

I'm glad you posted. It was very informative as I have no doubt there are others who've considered trying similar shots. As for the rounds performance--if it were an enemy soldier, that first hit would render him combat ineffective. That is really what the round is all about. Interesting about how the kill shot didn't bust apart. The way you described it fold, it sounds like it 'dummies' on impact, but doesn't fragment or mushroom.

[jimmyhayes 11]

I admit, besides the photo's offered by cheapertandirt.com on the mushrooming of the hollow point load,I also thought the design of the round would be more effective on the likes of car doors,walls and the likely things of a hitting the fan scenario. Seemed like the soft point would penetrate less in those circumstances, I'm not a doomsdayer, but who knows? Now days anything seems possible. Maybe the likelyhood of having a multi purpose round for the extreme difference between hunting & combat is a PIPE DREAM!

[my762buzz 141]

I really don't know what went wrong with my hunt? After close examination of the deer there was so little damage. I know the range was at the supposed outside limits of the caliber, but the dispatch shot was only 4' away and even then it was pathetic in that the recovered bullet was intact save the folding over of the hollow point tip.I'm still looking for that round so I can post pic's. I bought 500rnds of that brown bear ammo,while it was very accurate I believe the members of this site who all seem to be in agreement that it was the hp performance that was to blame and sp bullet should've been used. There have been at least one person who placed the blame on me alone which is OK but I've been completely honest with all and had I simply placed poor shots I would've admitted it. Maybe I got part of a run of ammo that was lacking in the one of the component parts used in the manufacturing process? I've also shot wolf ammo through this rifle along with golden tiger and all of it produced damn good accuracy and flawless functioning. I once bought the famed Jack O'Conner mdl. 70 win. (.270 of course) and shot a spike black-tail deer at about 100yrds, it went down floundered around for a while and got back up as soon as it did I sent another round right to the base of the skull and it was over. When I skinned him out I found the first shot had gone through both lungs and hit a rib going out the other side. That exit shot jellied that entire shoulder when it contacted the rib. I know plenty of people swear by the .270 but I sold mine based on that one hunt. My point is this the .270 devastated that animal and it got up, if that can happen then so can the scenario I've described in this post. Nothing works perfectly every or all the time.

 

I wouldn't blame you and I would think that no one has any hard feelings about your hunt experience. The main thing is it's a good learning experience.

.270 has quite the reputation. Bullet technolgy has come a long way in the past 30 years. .30-30 with fairly ancient bullet types was used to kill quite a bit of deer from the late 1800s through the 1900s and even .22lr was used to a great extent even though it would be considered inhumane by today's standards. Back in the 1930s during the depression, .22 cartridges were considered by many poor folks as the only reasonably priced ammo to feed their families with. An old friend of mine once told me about his grandpa's hunting techniques back in the 1930s and 1940s. He would sneak up as close to a deer as he could get and fire a regular lead round nose bullet which probably was zipping along at no more than 1000 fps by 1930s-1940s standards.

He intentionally avoided hiting any bones to prevent deflection. He aimed for a rear thigh and planned on tracking the deer until it bled out. For squirrels and other small animals, he shot them in the chest. It worked well enough I guess. I wouldn't try .22 with a deer unless it was a serious survival situation. Considering all the deer hunted and killed with no so great bullet designs and power levels, its not like 7.62x39 is lacking in comparison to ancient traditions. I think the expectation of watching a deer die on the spot fairly quickly follows the more modern use of minimum velocity levels and sufficient expansion. The exceptions to this are with big bore rifles where regular flat point heavy hard cast bullets can move along at slower speeds like 1000-1600 fps and still strike a deer or hog with exceptional terminal peformance. Your quite right that most anything will not work well all the time. Shot placement

and terminal performance are key to this.

[cscharlie 107]

Hi Jimmy!,

 

The wolf military classic ammo uses a steel jacketed hollow point that normally tears after impact causing an increase in terminal effects. If you used a different Russian, steel jacketed hollow point, then it prob acted like a FMJ.

 

The right russian hollowpoint can work well.

 

With that in mind, I personally like the Winchester 123grain softpoint. They produce the kind of results that work good on four legged, and two legged animals both. They are not cheap, but it shouldn't take many to take a deer.

 

Another thing I wonder about is after making a good kill shot, how long did you wait for the deer to die? You do realise that it's normal for them to take off running after they are shot, and then lay down to die, right.?

[Paulry 50]

Jimmy,

Don't be so hard on yoursefl! I've gut shot deer out at 300 yards with a 30.06 and it sucks! Remember one thing, at least you got your deer.

 

Think how it would feel if you chest shot a nice 6 point bull Elk only to loose it into the hills!!!! I've not done that, but have known those who have!

 

Talk about a waste!

 

Like mentioned, it's a good learning experiance.

 

Keep up the good fight!

 

Frosty

 

 

[jimmyhayes 11]

I didn't wait long enough to move in on him probably 30min. to move close, he didn't seem to be going anywhere but I was unsure of the actual placement of the shot? Open sites at my age, well I would've used a scope but couldn't get mine to hold zero with the side mount. As far as any animal running after the first shot I've never had that happen save one time and he only stood up before the 2nd shot hit home. Besides that one everything I've ever harvested was a one shot kill as its hard to run with your brains scattered all over the ground, Not saying anything except a head shot is all I've ever been presented with! You don't know how many times I've sat there and thought why doesn't the damn thing stand up and turn sideways to me? I'm a good shot even at 400yds if I have a scope. All that a side I can only imagine what its like for an animal that gets it with a bow and arrow!

[imarangemaster 315]

Local gunshop has some White box with black writing 7.62x39 "Hunting Ammo" "124 grn HP-8" Has a "3" headstamp (Uly) and felt the inside of the hollow point with a paper clip. Definitely has the ridges like Uly made Wolf Military Classic 8M3 HP. He wanted $10 a box. He knows it it good stuff.

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

762buzz: Awesome pics thanks for sharing, It is very interesting to see how much superior the Brown Bear design is to standard Wolf, and how the Wolf MC is superior to both.

[BrutalGardener 205]

So, does all Wolf MC HP ammo use this 8M3 "Sapsan" bullet that tears shit up or just certain batches? If it's the first, then MC HPs is all that I will be stocking up on from now on. Can't beat getting the deadliest 7.62x39 mm round for $200 a 1000 rd... If it's the latter, how can I definitively ID the "Sapsan" batches?

[imarangemaster 315]

I have checked some old stock with red sealer around the case mouth and new stock without (my 500 does not have sealer), all Military Classic 124 grain HP has the 8m3 bullet. The way to check is to take a paper clip and run it around the inside of the hollow point. With the 8m3, you will feel definite scooring of the internal jacket spaced at intervals. I checked 122 grn HP black box and it did not have it. Even the old Uly white box "Hunting ammo" I found with 124 grain HP-8 had the serrations. I imagine the "8" after the dash is the bullet type. If it is anything like US nomenclature, maybe "8m3" would be type 8 bullet 3rd variant?

[my762buzz 141]

I remember a thread from another forum about 2 or 3 years ago where I guy was knocking the piss out off big-ass wild boar and feral hogs with an AK using the Russian HP 8M3 bullet. If I remember right, he bought it in a generic white box just marked 7.62x39 HP made in Russia, or something like that. He had pictures of what it did to the hogs, and I was impressed. I didn't realize until now that the Wolf Military Classic HP was the same 8M3 bullet.

 

Perhaps this fellow that posted on thehighroad Nathan

 

Those Ulyanovsk HP 8M3 s are devastating on hogs at closed range. My son put one down at 20 yds. The exit was like a baseball size wound.

 

..........I have several reserved for hunting only . I had good results with it , it does blow up nicely like a grenade. I highly recommend it.

 

 

 

Another deer at 278 yards but with 7.62x39 ballistic tip nosler bullet that is suppose to work at a minimum 1600 fps. The guy claims the ballistic tip bullet did some decent amount of damage at that distance. This might be closer to shooting a deer with a hot 357 at close range based on his bullet weight and velocity. Also, no exit hole. Interesting AR15 7.62x39 setup.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=405210

Edited November 2, 2010 by my762buzz

[my762buzz 141]

So, does all Wolf MC HP ammo use this 8M3 "Sapsan" bullet that tears shit up or just certain batches? If it's the first, then MC HPs is all that I will be stocking up on from now on. Can't beat getting the deadliest 7.62x39 mm round for $200 a 1000 rd... If it's the latter, how can I definitively ID the "Sapsan" batches?

 

Yep rangemaster has it right. It should read 124 grain hp and check the inner jacket for score lines.

 

The brown bear hp is usually 123 grain and the wolf black box hp is 122 grain.

[imarangemaster 315]

I remember a thread from another forum about 2 or 3 years ago where I guy was knocking the piss out off big-ass wild boar and feral hogs with an AK using the Russian HP 8M3 bullet. If I remember right, he bought it in a generic white box just marked 7.62x39 HP made in Russia, or something like that. He had pictures of what it did to the hogs, and I was impressed. I didn't realize until now that the Wolf Military Classic HP was the same 8M3 bullet.

 

Perhaps this fellow that posted on thehighroad Nathan

 

Those Ulyanovsk HP 8M3 s are devastating on hogs at closed range. My son put one down at 20 yds. The exit was like a baseball size wound.

 

..........I have several reserved for hunting only . I had good results with it , it does blow up nicely like a grenade. I highly recommend it.

 

 

Another deer at 278 yards but with 7.62x39 ballistic tip nosler bullet that is suppose to work at a minimum 1600 fps. The guy claims the ballistic tip bullet did some decent amount of damage at that distance. This might be closer to shooting a deer with a hot 357 at close range based on his bullet weight and velocity. Also, no exit hole. Interesting AR15 7.62x39 setup.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=405210

 

Now that's what I am talking about!!!!!! 35 years ago, I hunted hogs with a .303 British and the 215 grain SP rounds didn't do that kind of damage! I think next month I need to get another 500 rounds to go with the 600 rounds Wolf MC HP I already have.

 

BTW, in the first issue of Peterson's "Book of the AK 47" from June 2009, they have a picture of a Uly White box 124 grn HP-8 like I found at the gun shop with the ballistic gel block it shot. The only mention in the article (which was about ammo) was the caption of the photo. The temporary stretch and tear cavity started about 1.5 inches in, grew to 8 inches in diameter, and finished about 16 inches in. The bullet broke up in several major parts. I have seen pics of a lot of 7.62x39 loads on ballistic gelatin but that was the BEST, about twice as good as Brown Bear 124 SP!!!!!!

[Saigamiester 4]

I appreciate all the feed back and all is taken to heart. Honestly I expected the fodder to perform like a typical hollow point, my mistake! And it won't happen again as I will be using a more traditional firearm and ammo next year. But all else aside what I chose to use for my own personal reasons accomplished the task in a purely pathetic manner. It only proves it can be done. The Magnificent Bastard summed up my feelings exactly after the fact and all was said and done I thought, I should have used the soft point ammo.This was my first hunt after taking an 8yr. break from the sport and poor choices and stupidity have crept into my planning. But I will not make the same mistake twice!!!!

 

 

Thanks for sharing. Your experience is of importance to me because not long ago sold most of my guns and I decided to keep only one rifle and that's my Saiga. My logic was that along with it being a perfect SD carbine I should be able to deer and boar with hunt with it. I live in California and in most areas we are limited to using lead free ammunition of which there are currently only 1 or 2 offerings both using the Barnes 123 gr. Triple-Shock X bullet. I've not tried it yet but plan to this winter on boar.

 

I recenlty ordered a POSP 4x24 scope from Kalinka, Not here yet! It has the 400m rangefinding reticle. I just learned here on this forum that the reticle references objects that are 3'-4" tall for ranging. That is how tall the average male is when sitting. I measured myself sitting and it's spot on. Coincidentally, 3'-4" is very close to the shoulder height of a typical mule deer. Everything I read about these scopes has been good and once I get mine I'll test it and report my findings here. I'm thinking that adding one of the scopes should improve the Saiga's capability for deer and boar hunting.

 

I will remember your story and learn by your experience.

 

Saigamiester

Edited November 13, 2010 by Saigamiester

[jimmyhayes 11]

I'll be looking forward to hearing your report on those findings especially on the scope I'm currently looking for a good fore end mounted scope for my saiga

[jimmyhayes 11]

Hey imarangemaster, nice pics I'll keep the Nosler offerings in mind,from the pics, very effective,congratulations on the freezer meat!!! What time's dinner???

[my762buzz 141]

Hey imarangemaster, nice pics I'll keep the Nosler offerings in mind,from the pics, very effective,congratulations on the freezer meat!!! What time's dinner???

 

The deer in that picture was shot by a member of another board. He dropped took his deer from 278 yards with 7.62x39 but using a nosler ballistic tip ammo.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=405210