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Brand New Saiga 12 Conversion - FTE - Which ammo to use?


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Hi folks,

 

Last weekend I bought a brand new Saiga 12, (18" barrel) and got a bunch of goodies to do the conversion myself with all the great info on this forum. The conversion took me about 6 hours, which was not bad I thought for a newbie. Most of the stuff came from Calolina Shooter's Supply, but a few things came from Ace. My conversion included:

 

Ace Folding Mechanism with Ace Socom Collapsible stock

Carolina FCG & trigger guard

Carolina LOW BRASS RELIABILITY KIT

Pistol Grip

Quad rail

Muzzle Break

MD 20 Drum

 

Took it out to the range today with the hope that the LOW BRASS RELIABILITY KIT would allow me to use the cheap Wally World ammo. I was very disappointed that I could not get one to eject at all. I thried three different varieties of the Wally world stuff, none of which would eject. I tried:

 

Winchester 1200 FPS 1 1/8 oz #8

Federal 1 1/8 oz #7.5

Winchester 1350 FPS 1 oz #6

 

Even with the adjustable gas plug on the #3 setting. I tried all the settings. Actually I found that using the stock gas plug and the spring and puck from the kit worked the best. But the best I could do was to get it to eject one round using that combination. But I could not get it to eject two rounds in a row. No FTF problems, it just would not eject.

 

I guess I can't use Wally World stuff at least for now, even though I had hoped the LOW BRASS RELIABILITY KIT would let me.

 

Now I freely admit that I did not polish the bolt (yet). I thought I would try to break it in with a full power ammo.

 

Which ammo would you recommend for me to use for break-in. I see that Midway has Winchester Military Grade Ammunition 12 Gauge 2-3/4" Buffered 00 Buckshot 9 Pellets Case of 250 (50 boxes of 5) on sale.

 

Thank you for your advice in advance.

 

post-27450-055037000 1287954991_thumb.jpg

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So, the 'low brass reliability kit' didn't work :angel: What is in 'the kit'?

 

There really is no substitute for good old fashioned gunsmithing. Generally speaking, low power ammo related failures are usually caused by an undergassed condition and/or friction in the action. The quad rail could be part of the problem too. I could go on, but I'll let everyone else tell you what they did to reach 100% flawless reliability with low power ammo....

 

The absolute best break in ammos for non'smiths are:

bench grinder, Dremel, hobby file, and fine sandpaper

Edited by evlblkwpnz
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So, the 'low brass reliability kit' didn't work :angel: What is in 'the kit'?

 

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

The Kit includes

1- Gunfixer Gas Adjustment Knob that gives 4 hand adjustable gas settings over the factory 2

1- #1 Reduced power recoil spring designed for all 2 3/4" shells

1- Etac Twister Puc to help keep your gas system working longer between cleanings

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You can Polish internals like you stated or use good high power ammo like most. You might want to try the stock handguard. It's always best to do the break in before the restore but past that point. Just stay away from low recoil ammo and most of your high brass will work.

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Hi folks,

 

Last weekend I bought a brand new Saiga 12, (18" barrel) and got a bunch of goodies to do the conversion myself with all the great info on this forum. The conversion took me about 6 hours, which was not bad I thought for a newbie. Most of the stuff came from Calolina Shooter's Supply, but a few things came from Ace. My conversion included:

 

Ace Folding Mechanism with Ace Socom Collapsible stock

Carolina FCG & trigger guard

Carolina LOW BRASS RELIABILITY KIT

Pistol Grip

Quad rail

Muzzle Break

MD 20 Drum

 

Took it out to the range today with the hope that the LOW BRASS RELIABILITY KIT would allow me to use the cheap Wally World ammo. I was very disappointed that I could not get one to eject at all. I thried three different varieties of the Wally world stuff, none of which would eject. I tried:

 

Winchester 1200 FPS 1 1/8 oz #8

Federal 1 1/8 oz #7.5

Winchester 1350 FPS 1 oz #6

 

Even with the adjustable gas plug on the #3 setting. I tried all the settings. Actually I found that using the stock gas plug and the spring and puck from the kit worked the best. But the best I could do was to get it to eject one round using that combination. But I could not get it to eject two rounds in a row. No FTF problems, it just would not eject.

 

I guess I can't use Wally World stuff at least for now, even though I had hoped the LOW BRASS RELIABILITY KIT would let me.

 

Now I freely admit that I did not polish the bolt (yet). I thought I would try to break it in with a full power ammo.

 

Which ammo would you recommend for me to use for break-in. I see that Midway has Winchester Military Grade Ammunition 12 Gauge 2-3/4" Buffered 00 Buckshot 9 Pellets Case of 250 (50 boxes of 5) on sale.

 

Thank you for your advice in advance.

 

post-27450-055037000 1287954991_thumb.jpg

 

Maybe try taking off the quad rail. I've read that that can affect function somehow.

 

Another thing might be your gas ports. Are there 3?

 

Do you have a gunfixers gas plug? When you put it in did you screw it in all the way, and then back it out one full turn to setting 3?

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Do you have a gunfixers gas plug? When you put it in did you screw it in all the way, and then back it out one full turn to setting 3?

 

Hmmm - perhaps you are on to something here. I am not sure if what they gave me is the gunfixer's plug. Here is the linky. There were no instructions included with the low brass reliability kit, except on which end of the puck was supposed to go in first. I was tightening the gas plug all the way in until I could not turn it anymore (by hand). That put it between the number 1 & 2. Then back it off until I got to the number 3 - probably not one full turn! I am not sure to be honest if I backed it off one full turn on not. I see now that if I tighten it all the way in, and back it off one full turn that I can easily feel the detent where it hits the pin at the +1 then -1 then 2 then 3. Perhaps that was my issue. I won't know till I can make a range trip next weekend.

 

Like I said, it seem to work the best with the stock plug all the way in. The stock plug seems to have a larger channel than the number 3 position on the plug from the kit. But I guess I cannot see how much of the gas port is really exposed with either plug so it could be I had more of the gas port exposed with the stock plug than the variable plug fully seated. This could have been my problem.

 

 

Another thing might be your gas ports. Are there 3?

 

I see only one hole (port) when I take off the plug and look inside the tube. I do not see three holes. On the plug there seems to be three "channels" - the largest channel being #3. There seem to be three number on the variable plug. but there seem to be 4 detents:

 

-1

+1

2

3

 

When I have it backed off one full turn, the #3 is at the 6:30 o'clock position. Actually, when I back it off one full turn, I see that whatever number I pick is at the 6:30 o'clock position. The pin is at 7 o'clock position. There are four little notches, and the closest one is at the 8 o'clock position.

 

Perhaps my issue was not having it backed off properly. It would have been nice to have instructions!

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sounds like your gun isn't getting enough gas. Take a dental pick, piece of wire, etc.... and poke around in there and see if you have more then one port. try using the factory gas puck just too see. I've heard of the quad rails causing issues too. But my money is on you have not enough/blocked ports.

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Try firing a few rounds with a very tight choke on your gun. I've seen under gassed guns cycle when they had a turkey choke on them. Think the tighter choke creates an increase in back pressure.

 

To break in just use some pretty heavy ammo. 00 buck should be more then enough, few slugs won't hurt

Edited by Rusty truck
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Found this excellent article about fixing "Vodka Specials"! Vodka Specials It helps me understand the issues regarding the quad rail setup. I did not notice that vent hole previously. Looking at the vents I see three holes from the barrel that go into a single hole in the tube.

 

Going to see if I can fix the quad rail issue by sealing that vent off on the side of the gas chamber and then polishing the bolt.

Edited by Flame Red
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Found this excellent article about fixing "Vodka Specials"! Vodka Specials It helps me understand the issues regarding the quad rail setup. I did not notice that vent hole previously. Looking at the vents I see three holes from the barrel that go into a single hole in the tube.

 

Going to see if I can fix the quad rail issue by sealing that vent off on the side of the gas chamber and then polishing the bolt.

 

Not again....some of the info in that thread is absolutely dumbass and bad. For example.... plugging the vent hole in the side of the gas block.

 

Here's a checklist of things to do:

Install factory handguard

Install factory recoil spring

Install factory puck

Set your gas regulator on the most open setting

See if it runs

 

If not, you may need to reprofile the hammer, bolt, and carrier. You will most likely need to port to at least 3 @ .093".

 

 

Or.... you can send it to Mike at Lonestar or one of the other reputable shot'smiths here and have a smooth running machine when you get it back.

 

In the meantime, here is what a 100% flawless gunhumping performance looks like.... :smoke:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejy58DCoYKE

Factory gas regulator, factory recoil spring, standard style puck.... no snake oil here.

Edited by evlblkwpnz
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Updated with Range report.

 

I polished the bolt. I also blocked off the back vent a little that the stock hand guards used to block that my new quad rails do not block at all. Still using the reduced gas system.

 

I bought a few boxes of high brass ammo to try. 00 buck and #2 Steel. Both worked flawlessly with the stock 5 round mag. I had the variable gas plug in and it ran fine on either the highest setting or the lowest with this ammo. No FTF no FTE. Perfecto.

 

I then tired this ammo in the MD-20 drum. Every third round seemed to have a problem. So I could shoot up to about 2 rounds that would cycle perfectly from the drum and the third would have a problem where it would not feed. The bolt would 'lock' back and not feed the round into the chamber. It would not move the round at all. It would catch on the lip of the round. Pushing the bolt back and letting it slam would feed the round. Tried it with all settings from lowest to highest and it did not seem to help. I did have the reduced power spring installed. I am thinking that if I put in the original spring it might give it more force to load the round. But I did not think to try that at the range. I also understand that the spring inside the drum is adjustable. Would changing the drum spring to a lighter setting help this problem?

 

It still cannot get any Wally Word low brass loads to eject. I guess I will just stick with the full power stuff. Just want to try the drum to work right on the high brass stuff.

Edited by Flame Red
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There seems to be many posts with "FTE" which to some means "failure to extract", to others "FTE" means "failure to eject". I assume that most posters mean "failure to eject", also assuming that the extractor pulls the shotshell out, or partially out, of the chamber. Partially out because the bolt doesn't go back far enough.

 

I am a simpleton, so I am curious if the bolt goes back as far as it should. My first thought is to put a piece of masking tape on the receiver to see.

If I don't know how far back the bolt goes, any fix is a guess.

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First & foremost, switch back to your factory puck.

 

Then check your port size.

You can use this method. http://forum.saiga-1...showtopic=51183

If you're undergassed, nothing will help you.

It should run well with all the factory parts.

 

 

Thanks for that linky. After taking mine apart, which was not very difficult with the great instructions, I found that mine had three holes drilled, and they were a little larger than .078 (bit fit in the wholes loosely) but smaller than .081 (next larger bit I had but it would not insert at all). So I drilled all three out to .093 - I had a bit exactly that size :D

 

I'll put back the stock puck and the stock spring and head to the range as soon as I can.I am very eager for this to work reliably with Wally World Low brass ammo, My shoulder is all black and blue from the 30 full power rounds I fired off yesterday!

Edited by Flame Red
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Range report.

 

After boring out the three gas holes to .093 and making the "D" modification to the hole in the gas tube as described in the link above, I took it out to the range using both Federal and Winchester Wally World low brass. Used the variable gas plug on the largest setting. Used the five round mag. Failed to eject on all rounds using this configuration.

 

I then swapped the stock puck to the aftermarket one. FTE on every single round (both types of ammo).

 

I then replaced the stock spring with the aftermarket lighter spring. Now I could see a difference. The Federal would occasionally eject a round, but most rounds FTE. The Winchester Wally World ejected every single round!

 

:super:

 

I then filled up my MD-20 with the Winchester low brass and it dumped the whole mag blissfully with not one single problem! Joy of joys!

 

I probably could have gone drilled the holes a little wider and get the Federal to work but I'll leave it be. Odd that others said that their guns like the Federal and not the Winchester and mine is the opposite.

 

So to review, my setup includes:

 

Three .093 boar gas holes

"D" gas tube modification

CS Reduced brass gas plug, puck and reduced spring system.

Polished bolt and hammer

Quad rail with vent hole slightly blocked since new rail does not cover it.

Forward folding assist grip

ACE Socom stock with Ace folding mechanism

New FCG

ACE pistol grip

Edited by Flame Red
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