Vepr 12 in Italy?

[Dalmo 0]

Hi guys, I know this a Saiga forum, however you guys seem to love VEPRs. Actually, I found more info about it here than in half the internet.

I wanted to buy a SPAS15 since in Italy you can get used ones for around 700€ (in Italy most used guns shot only a couple boxes of ammo... no kidding) but I receive better feedbacks about the Molot, plus, I read the review posted on this board, and gosh, I was not pleased at all.

 

Does anyone know where I can find a vepr12 for a decent price? You know, I checked Waffen Schumacher's site but it's around 1320€ when it used to be 1100€....

I was going to spend around that cash, but I wanted to invest it in more magazines LOL. You know, it pisses me off spending 1320€ + shipping and papers (and trust me, i have the feeling this won't be cheap at all) + magazines when I can buy a SPAS15 for 700€. : \

I know there are Italians on this board, perhaps they can tell me where I can find it within national borders... (I'd avoid the shipping and paper costs in this case)

 

 

Do they still sell it with that strange locking mechanism which prevents you to shoot it when the stock is folded? You know, our laws admit folding stocks on shotguns and the Molot is longer than our minimum requirements...

If they still do it, how can i remove that useless mechanism?

 

Thank you guys and sorry for the awful English and this wall of text.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Dalmo

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Since you can get the "good" (non-"sporting"), Saiga-12's over there in Italy I'd just buy one of those if they're significantly cheaper than the Molot guns.

 

Aside from cosmetics, I don't see any real advantage that a Molot VEPR-12 has over an Izhmash Saiga-12. Besides.. Molot's shut down when it comes to Kalashnikov production. Izhmash won. I don't know that this'd currently affect prices in Izhmash's favor; making the Saiga-12 more affordable, (if it hasn't yet, it surely will), but I suspect so.

 

Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

[Dalmo 0]

Well perhaps you're right, but I asked our national importer if they import the new saiga exp 01-030 AKA ksk-18 (which is produced after they got the molot factory) but I didn't receive one single answer.

And the "good model" disappeared from their catalogues while they still sell magazines. LOL

 

I don't like the Saiga12K (the good model) because it doesn't have rails on top and on the bottom, and i would love an ultradot open red dot and a vertical grip..... And it looks so bad compared to the molot or the 01-030 (this model doesn't support vertical grips too, gosh)

 

 

 

 

edit 1: for those who tried both guns, do you also feel the SPAS15 is so bad compaired to the Saiga?

 

edit 2: I forgot to say the good Saiga used to be 1200€, so no, I wouldn't save a penny.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Dalmo

[us_dragunov 11]

 

 

I don't like the Saiga12K (the good model) because it doesn't have rails on top and on the bottom, and i would love an ultradot open red dot and a vertical grip..... And it looks so bad compared to the molot or the 01-030 (this model doesn't support vertical grips too, gosh)

 

 

 

The Saiga-12 VER. 030 should be fine for your needs. It has the picatinny rail on the top cover and the rail on the bottom under the gas block that you could put a vertical grip on if you like.

 

 

 

One of mine.

[libertarian 108]

[aefimcev 2]

I have Vepr 12 (ВПО 205-01)

 

Molot produce Veprs now, versions with 430, 520, 680mm barrels. Only 430mm version have unfolded locking mechanism. In Russia Vepr 12 priced about $1000 (min price - if you order from the factory - about $800).

Saiga 12-030 priced about $1200

 

Saiga or Vepr? - Vepr obviously, it is obviously from first glance. Main Saiga problem - it is low production quality, every Saiga differents from each other absolutely unpredictable. Many saigas made from defect AK rifles parts.

 

When im participate last ipsc match this month, i see only one Saiga (Legion Tactica), and dozen Veprs.

All of them shoot light sporting loads without ONE ftf during this match.

 

My voice for Vepr:)

 

Edited October 27, 2010 by aefimcev

[Dalmo 0]

The Saiga-12 VER. 030 should be fine for your needs. It has the picatinny rail on the top cover and the rail on the bottom under the gas block that you could put a vertical grip on if you like.

One of mine.

Sure bro, the problem is getting one!

And of course I will go for the molot, since this new saiga is way more expensive.

 

 

I have Vepr 12 (ВПО 205-01)

Molot produce Veprs now, versions with 430, 520, 680mm barrels. Only 430mm version have unfolded locking mechanism. In Russia Vepr 12 priced about $1000 (min price - if you order from the factory - about $800).

Saiga 12-030 priced about $1200

Saiga or Vepr? - Vepr obviously, it is obviously from first glance. Main Saiga problem - it is low production quality, every Saiga differents from each other absolutely unpredictable. Many saigas made from defect AK rifles parts.

When im participate last ipsc match this month, i see only one Saiga (Legion Tactica), and dozen Veprs.

All of them shoot light sporting loads without ONE ftf during this match.

My voice for Vepr:)

This is STUNNING.

Where are you from my friend? How did you buy your Molot? Are they still in business?

 

Your English is excellent - and its a good thing too! Most of the Italians on THIS forum are from New Jersey

Hahaahhhah thank you man!

However I know two sisters (half italian and half irish actually) from NJ, who moved from Staten Island. Believe it or not they aren't guidettess at all!

 

 

And no, there are no guidos in Italy and we don't use fake tan.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Dalmo

[308SAIGA 55]

As far as purchasing firearms from this country you can not, because it is illegal to export firearms unless you are part of the MOB... The same goes for most countries they too will not allow the exportation of firearms (maybe this is why you are not getting answers!?)... The best piece of advice I can give is to find someone in your country and offer them 1000 for it maybe they will sell it to you...

Edited October 27, 2010 by 308saiga

[Dalmo 0]

yeah, i gotta see new shops.... however i already found it in germany, but 1320+shipping and import papers + gunshop fee is quite expensive : \

 

and you know, spas15 might be shitty cause it doesn't have rails and it doesn't shoot magnum cartridges but it's cheap...

 

where are you from anyway? if you're from russia somebody in your country can export guns, since they go all over europe...

Edited October 27, 2010 by Dalmo

[308SAIGA 55]

yeah, i gotta see new shops.... however i already found it in germany, but 1320+shipping and import papers + gunshop fee is quite expensive : \

 

and you know, spas15 might be shitty cause it doesn't have rails and it doesn't shoot magnum cartridges but it's cheap...

 

where are you from anyway? if you're from russia somebody in your country can export guns, since they go all over europe...

 

 

USA, I do not know your laws on importation, maybe you ought to start their first. What does Italy Laws state about an individual importing a gun from another country? I do not believe you can, so in my opinion you are wasting your time with this subject.....

 

Try to find locally....

 

Later

[Dalmo 0]

Of course we can, plus we can import them from the USA, with an end user certificate (thank you post 9/11 laws)... But why would I want to import a Saiga from the US? From Russia it's better.

I'd avoid importation due to shipping costs, taxes and the proper paperwork. It's not difficult to get paperwork to import a gun, but it can take some time because you have to deal with paperwork crap even in the foreign country in order to get an export permit.

It takes money, patience and time. That's why I was asking if some Italian on this board can tell me where I have to go.

 

We don't have ATF assholes thank god, but yes we gotta get approval for rifles and pistols if they weren't approved previously. Not on shotguns though.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Dalmo

[308SAIGA 55]

Of course we can, plus we can import them from the USA, with an end user certificate (thank you post 9/11 laws)... But why would I want to import a Saiga from the US? From Russia it's better.

I'd avoid importation due to shipping costs, taxes and the proper paperwork. It's not difficult to get paperwork to import a gun, but it can take some time because you have to deal with paperwork crap even in the foreign country in order to get an export permit.

It takes money, patience and time. That's why I was asking if some Italian on this board can tell me where I have to go.

 

We don't have ATF assholes thank god, but yes we gotta get approval for rifles and pistols if they weren't approved previously. Not on shotguns though.

 

Are we getting a little testy? No you can not import weapons from the USA! Because it is ILLEGAL to export weapons unless you are the US Government....

 

No you don't have ATF you have the Mafia assholes and this is why I do not believe that just anyone can import a weapon to Italy.... I an convinced that you are a troll so good luck to you and your quest....

[Dalmo 0]

Dear Sir, perhaps you should check your local laws better. Or perhaps ATF is just trolling you hard.

You should check this form.

Application and Permit for Permanent Exportation of Firearms

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-9.pdf

 

Oh and what about these guys?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Support/SupportFAQView.aspx?FAQID=1110&NoCount=1

http://www.questarinternational.com/exporting.html

 

And I could go on for hours... Unless your laws changed in 2010.

 

They are trolling you hard, oh yeah. But this has been done plenty of times, since we have been importing some american masterpieces for quite some time after 9/11. Before that it was even easier.

 

And since I'm attending a law school I believe I might be more aware of my local laws than you Sir.

Our "local ATF" has to approve every model of rifle/pistol on the market, so we don't have folding buttstocks and so on, but we almost don't have limits on shotguns.

[308SAIGA 55]

Dear Sir, perhaps you should check your local laws better. Or perhaps ATF is just trolling you hard.

You should check this form.

Application and Permit for Permanent Exportation of Firearms

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-9.pdf

 

Oh and what about these guys?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Support/SupportFAQView.aspx?FAQID=1110&NoCount=1

http://www.questarinternational.com/exporting.html

 

And I could go on for hours... Unless your laws changed in 2010.

 

They are trolling you hard, oh yeah. But this has been done plenty of times, since we have been importing some american masterpieces for quite some time after 9/11. Before that it was even easier.

 

And since I'm attending a law school I believe I might be more aware of my local laws than you Sir.

Our "local ATF" has to approve every model of rifle/pistol on the market, so we don't have folding buttstocks and so on, but we almost don't have limits on shotguns.

 

 

OK you got me, but again you would have to go through so much BS that I do not believe that anyone from the USA would sell you a gun, notice on the form it has to be done via a FFL & not an individual, and even then on GB website it has a small list of people (FFL's) that even do this...

 

None of the less I was wrong and I apologize for it... I was amazed to see this form, especially when ATF can not verify that the weapon is actually going to a person that is legally allowed to have a firearm in another country or it was going to end up in the hands of a criminal....

 

I guess they just do not give a crap.... and wonder how Mexico, Iran, Iraq are getting a hold of weapons from this country, this was one of the reasons I was so sure that it could not happen....

 

Thanks for the info and good luck trying to get a weapon......

[Dalmo 0]

No problem my friend. Anyway I wanted to point out that I've been misunderstood. When I talked about ATF assholes I just wanted to express my solidarity with you. I know what it's like to have annoying bureaucrats forbidding you to get the items you want for no apparent reason at all... I apologize if I offended somebody.

 

Anyway yeah, that's a lot of paperwork, in fact most times importers order a large number of guns rather than doing the paperwork by the piece...

ATF knows who's receiving the gun since they want an End User Certificate.

Of course this user can sell it to a criminal, or a criminal can steal the gun from the honest citizen.

And don't worry, it's not your fault if there are a lot of guns in terrorists and criminals' hands.

There are always plenty of Russian guns avaiable through the black market.

 

Thank you dude.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Dalmo

[308SAIGA 55]

No problem my friend. Anyway I wanted to point out that I've been misunderstood. When I talked about ATF assholes I just wanted to express my solidarity with you. I know what it's like to have annoying bureaucrats forbidding you to get the items you want for no apparent reason at all... I apologize if I offended somebody.

 

Anyway yeah, that's a lot of paperwork, in fact most times importers order a large number of guns rather than doing the paperwork by the piece...

ATF knows who's receiving the gun since they want an End User Certificate.

Of course this user can sell it to a criminal, or a criminal can steal the gun from the honest citizen.

And don't worry, it's not your fault if there are a lot of guns in terrorists and criminals' hands.

There are always plenty of Russian guns avaiable through the black market.

 

Thank you dude.

 

 

You said it right!!! I just do not see them authorizing anything from going out, there is a thread here about Korea wanting to sell the US a ton of M14's from the Korean War and ATF said no to the importation......

 

Can't you take a ride to Russia and purchase it directly? Now that would be cool, I know a few buddies that if they could they would be like I'll take one of these, a couple of those, some of that.... LOL

 

 

Good luck

Edited October 27, 2010 by 308saiga

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

Dalmo,

 

My father's side left Naples 100 years ago and my mother's side left Calabria 40 years ago to come to New Jersey.

 

You see, life in Italy was pretty shitty for them, and NJ was a whole lot better. I find it extremely ironic that now, you not only own the better Saiga-12 than I, but also live in a nicer place

 

Maybe you guys could take me back?

 

I'll learn to speak Italian......

[Dalmo 0]

No problem my friend. Anyway I wanted to point out that I've been misunderstood. When I talked about ATF assholes I just wanted to express my solidarity with you. I know what it's like to have annoying bureaucrats forbidding you to get the items you want for no apparent reason at all... I apologize if I offended somebody.

 

Anyway yeah, that's a lot of paperwork, in fact most times importers order a large number of guns rather than doing the paperwork by the piece...

ATF knows who's receiving the gun since they want an End User Certificate.

Of course this user can sell it to a criminal, or a criminal can steal the gun from the honest citizen.

And don't worry, it's not your fault if there are a lot of guns in terrorists and criminals' hands.

There are always plenty of Russian guns avaiable through the black market.

 

Thank you dude.

 

 

You said it right!!! I just do not see them authorizing anything from going out, there is a thread here about Korea wanting to sell the US a ton of M14's from the Korean War and ATF said no to the importation......

 

Can't you take a ride to Russia and purchase it directly? Now that would be cool, I know a few buddies that if they could they would be like I'll take one of these, a couple of those, some of that.... LOL

 

 

Good luck

Thank you dude!

 

Perhaps I'm being a bit paranoid but I've always thought ATF has links to your National Manifacturers, I can't find any other reason....

They try to kill Imports no matter what. Just like in this case. I don't believe M14 would be more dangerous than AR15s.

 

 

And no, I want to stay legal. You know, once the Berlin Wall fell down you can get full auto AKs with 150-200€ including ammo travelling just a few miles away from borders...

Our bureaucrats don't realize this is where the real danger comes from, not from civilian guns.

You can buy half Soviet Army and they still bitch about our guns. LOL

But just like I said before I want to stay legal.

 

Dalmo,

 

My father's side left Naples 100 years ago and my mother's side left Calabria 40 years ago to come to New Jersey.

 

You see, life in Italy was pretty shitty for them, and NJ was a whole lot better. I find it extremely ironic that now, you not only own the better Saiga-12 than I, but also live in a nicer place

 

Maybe you guys could take me back?

 

I'll learn to speak Italian......

Hahahahah I'm not so sure italy is a better place now.

And in terms of gun laws most rifles have 10 or 5 round limit per magazine...

Thank god in July 2011 magazines will be classified as an accessory so we'll be able to buy online (and offline of course) unrestricted 30 rounders.

Yet, we won't have folding stocks but only collapsable butstocks on m4s. LOL

Not to mention full auto is ALWAYS forbidden. No pre-86 guns, no class III licenses, nothing. FORBIDDEN.

But it's ok, it's kind of useless to me.

 

But seriously, I don't know if life is better here. I wouldn't be so sure of that dude.

 

Oh, and carrying loaded guns is almost forbidden. Very few people have carry permits for self-defence (22000 in the whole country) and it lasts only 1 year then you have to do the paperwork and medical visits again. No kidding.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Dalmo

[308SAIGA 55]

 

Thank you dude!

 

Perhaps I'm being a bit paranoid but I've always thought ATF has links to your National Manifacturers, I can't find any other reason....

They try to kill Imports no matter what. Just like in this case. I don't believe M14 would be more dangerous than AR15s.

 

 

And no, I want to stay legal. You know, once the Berlin Wall fell down you can get full auto AKs with 150-200€ including ammo travelling just a few miles away from borders...

Our bureaucrats don't realize this is where the real danger comes from, not from civilian guns.

You can buy half Soviet Army and they still bitch about our guns. LOL

But just like I said before I want to stay legal.

 

 

Man I want to come to Live in Italy.... LOL....

Edited October 27, 2010 by 308saiga

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Dalmo,

 

My father's side left Naples 100 years ago and my mother's side left Calabria 40 years ago to come to New Jersey.

 

You see, life in Italy was pretty shitty for them, and NJ was a whole lot better. I find it extremely ironic that now, you not only own the better Saiga-12 than I, but also live in a nicer place

 

Maybe you guys could take me back?

 

I'll learn to speak Italian......

 

Yes, Dalmo, please take CK "back"!! He's very "confused" politically and I'm afraid he might vote.

 

Jus' fuckin with ya, CK. I only partially mean it.

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

Hahahahah I'm not so sure italy is a better place now.

And in terms of gun laws most rifles have 10 or 5 round limit per magazine...

Thank god in July 2011 magazines will be classified as an accessory so we'll be able to buy online (and offline of course) unrestricted 30 rounders.

Yet, we won't have folding stocks but only collapsable butstocks on m4s. LOL

Not to mention full auto is ALWAYS forbidden. No pre-86 guns, no class III licenses, nothing. FORBIDDEN.

But it's ok, it's kind of useless to me.

 

But seriously, I don't know if life is better here. I wouldn't be so sure of that dude.

 

Oh, and carrying loaded guns is almost forbidden. Very few people have carry permits for self-defence (22000 in the whole country) and it lasts only 1 year then you have to do the paperwork and medical visits again. No kidding.

 

Yeah, that sounds just like NJ. LOL

 

No magazines over 15 rounds here either. So when you are buying 30 rounders next year you will have bigger magazines than me.

No folding or telescoping stocks here either.

All full-auto is forbidden here too. Technically there's a license, but only for people who are involved with la cosa nostra.

No carrying loaded guns here either, there are only about 3,00 in state of ~9 million people. Crazy licensing process just like yours, and once again, it's for security guards and people who "know someone"

 

EDIT: Just to clarify Dalmo, most of the USA is not like this, however states can make their own gun laws and a few states have laws very different from all of the rest. NJ is most likely the worst in the USA

Edited October 27, 2010 by Classy Kalashnikov

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

Yes, Dalmo, please take CK "back"!! He's very "confused" politically and I'm afraid he might vote.

 

Jus' fuckin with ya, CK. I only partially mean it.

 

Aw c'mon, it won't be so bad.....

 

[Dalmo 0]

Hahahahah I'm not so sure italy is a better place now.

And in terms of gun laws most rifles have 10 or 5 round limit per magazine...

Thank god in July 2011 magazines will be classified as an accessory so we'll be able to buy online (and offline of course) unrestricted 30 rounders.

Yet, we won't have folding stocks but only collapsable butstocks on m4s. LOL

Not to mention full auto is ALWAYS forbidden. No pre-86 guns, no class III licenses, nothing. FORBIDDEN.

But it's ok, it's kind of useless to me.

 

But seriously, I don't know if life is better here. I wouldn't be so sure of that dude.

 

Oh, and carrying loaded guns is almost forbidden. Very few people have carry permits for self-defence (22000 in the whole country) and it lasts only 1 year then you have to do the paperwork and medical visits again. No kidding.

 

Yeah, that sounds just like NJ. LOL

 

No magazines over 15 rounds here either. So when you are buying 30 rounders next year you will have bigger magazines than me.

No folding or telescoping stocks here either.

All full-auto is forbidden here too. Technically there's a license, but only for people who are involved with la cosa nostra.

No carrying loaded guns here either, there are only about 3,00 in state of ~9 million people. Crazy licensing process just like yours, and once again, it's for security guards and people who "know someone"

 

EDIT: Just to clarify Dalmo, most of the USA is not like this, however states can make their own gun laws and a few states have laws very different from all of the rest. NJ is most likely the worst in the USA

 

I know my friend. I read NJ is proud to have the strictest gun laws in america since 1967, or something like that.

And it's one of the most dangerous states, like the 3rd. It's crazy. Yeah I know most states are better than mine and yours.

Next year we're getting 30 rounders, it's kind of against the law, but they can't tell me anything since it's like I'm mounting a scope, so technically it's lawful...

Honestly if I was american I'd move to Florida. Nice weather, nice places, nice girls, permissive gun laws. Perhaps too much crime, but there is no such thing as a perfect State dude.

You said you're from southern Italy and you live in NJ. Are you a guido? (Just kidding )

 

 

oh and i forgot to say 9x19 isn't allowed here since it's considered a war caliber and you couldn't have war calibers.... (well this is a BS since 5,56x45, 7,62x51 and 7,62x39 are perfectly legal... even .50BMG LOL)... don't ask me why, we are allowed to have any caliber but this, I'm not even sure they know why... and it's forbidden even in the next law (the one we will apply on july 2011), so instead we have 9x21, what BS

we'll laugh hard in our courts LOL

Edited October 27, 2010 by Dalmo

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

Honestly if I was american I'd move to Florida. Nice weather, nice places, nice girls, permissive gun laws. Perhaps too much crime, but there is no such thing as a perfect State dude.

You said you're from southern Italy and you live in NJ. Are you a guido? (Just kidding )

 

Yes, lots of Italians from NJ/NY are moving down to FL. Southwest Florida near Tampa/Fort Meyers has a huge Italian population from NJ/NY. It was funny to watch Devil Rays baseball games on TV, and the people in the stands in Tampa are all cheering for the NY Yankees I have some family in SW Florida, it's OK there but I'm not big on the heat. Most of the bad parts of FL are in the southeast and the panhandle from what I hear.

 

LOL nope. I don't what the heck I look like to be honest. A week ago someone at the post office told me I looked Amish, last night someone said I look like a jock. Who knows.

[Dalmo 0]

 

 

Yes, lots of Italians from NJ/NY are moving down to FL. Southwest Florida near Tampa/Fort Meyers has a huge Italian population from NJ/NY. It was funny to watch Devil Rays baseball games on TV, and the people in the stands in Tampa are all cheering for the NY Yankees I have some family in SW Florida, it's OK there but I'm not big on the heat. Most of the bad parts of FL are in the southeast and the panhandle from what I hear.

 

LOL nope. I don't what the heck I look like to be honest. A week ago someone at the post office told me I looked Amish, last night someone said I look like a jock. Who knows.

LMFAO i'd love to move there too.

 

Don't worry, I come from northern Italy and I've been told I look russian.

[aefimcev 2]

I have Vepr 12 (ВПО 205-01)

Molot produce Veprs now, versions with 430, 520, 680mm barrels. Only 430mm version have unfolded locking mechanism. In Russia Vepr 12 priced about $1000 (min price - if you order from the factory - about $800).

Saiga 12-030 priced about $1200

Saiga or Vepr? - Vepr obviously, it is obviously from first glance. Main Saiga problem - it is low production quality, every Saiga differents from each other absolutely unpredictable. Many saigas made from defect AK rifles parts.

When im participate last ipsc match this month, i see only one Saiga (Legion Tactica), and dozen Veprs.

All of them shoot light sporting loads without ONE ftf during this match.

My voice for Vepr:)

This is STUNNING.

Where are you from my friend? How did you buy your Molot? Are they still in business?

 

Im from Russia

Yes, Molot factory produce Veprs now, they had financal problems last year, but now they make a tons of Veprs:) any local gunstores in my city have new Veprs priced about $900-1000.

Unfortunately it is imposible to buy firarms in Russia and export it for private usage

Only licensed exporters able do this

Not sure what countries imports veprs. germany, finland and greece as i remember correctly

Edited October 28, 2010 by aefimcev

[gunfighteruk 6]

Planet of gun in Germany have Molot's from Euro 1300 comes with 2 mags.

 

Not sure what your local Italian gun laws are like - but here in the UK i have a European gun licence which allows both travel & purchase of certain guns in Europe,although my UK gun licence restricts me to only a limited number of guns in total.

 

e-gun.de is the Euro version of US Gunbroker ,lots of Molots & Saigas usually on there.

 

Friends spas 15 is ok , but with only 6 round mags your limiting your self & if your looking to shoot Ipsc matches you need big mags !

 

Good luck with your future purchase & maybe see you at some of the Euro shotgun matches.

Edited October 28, 2010 by gunfighteruk

[Dalmo 0]