Help me decide on a Saiga rifle

[mikegraffam 11]

So, I have a Saiga 12ga. Love it. It sold me a Saiga rifle just by being so bad ass. But which one? I know I don't want a .308. I have two Springfield M1A models for that caliber, so I have no interest in another .308.

 

Something in an assault weapon caliber is what I want: 5.56 NATO, 7.62x39, or 5.45x39.

 

Please bear in mind, that while I will soon be moving to Florida, I will still need to keep my weapons NY legal (we have the '94 AWB verbatim) since I have family and friends here that shoot, and will be bringing guns back and going to ranges w/ them every so often. Plus, there may be a time that I move back up here.. I fear FL summers more than a zombie apocalypse. Mag dumps at the Sun seem ineffective.

 

5.56 NATO seems nice. It's a common caliber. I can get match ammo for it easily. Pre-ban hicap AK mags in this caliber seem hard to find, though. Or am I not looking in the right place? Saiga-specific mags more than 10rd won't be NY-legal.

 

7.62x39 mags are plentiful. Ammo is cheap, but not as cheap as it used to be. Hornady has new 7.62x39 loads now, which is an interesting development. A bit heavier than..

 

5.45x39. On caliber alone, this is probably my first choice because of super cheap surplus, and light weight. Preban hicap AK74 mags are easy enough to find. Hornady has a new ballistic tip in this caliber too.

 

But what about the rifles themselves? I realise to get a preban mag of any sort into this rifles, I have to install a bullet guide.. and modify the gun a bit - but if I do so, can I still use regular Saiga mags?

 

What about accessory availability for the three? Any downsides or 'gotchas' I should be aware of? Advantages or disadvantages I'm not seeing?

 

I've been turning this around in my head for a month or two and just can't seem to make a decision.

 

Any builders that are particularly recommended in case I want to go that route?

[chevyman097 2,579]

First off. Id say the 7.62x39 because that is the section you posted in and it is of course the best.

 

Secondly, yes you can use your factory mags in it if you install the guide.

 

Thirdly, you can find plenty of accessories. I would stay away from the cheap hand guards lacking a heat shield. Say Tapco for example.

 

If you are looking for some one to do the build for you Id say save the trouble and get an Arsenal SGL21

Edited November 4, 2010 by Chevyman097

[mgconnor13 206]

I'd lean towards 7.62x39 or 5.45x39. Really depends what you want to do with your rifle.

5.45x39 has a nasty reputation on the battle field. The Afghans refer to it as the "poison bullet". You can but spam cans of 5.45 pretty cheap. I've only had the chance to shoot one 74 and it was a FA. It was so pleasant to shoot with hardly any recoil.

7.62x39 will do a number on just about any thing/one and is still fairly cheap.

The whole line up of Saigas are so similar that most parts are interchangeable with those of other AKs.

 

Decide what you want to do with the rifle.

Look at you needs VS your wants in the rifle. (there is a difference)

Sit down, draw out your "ideal" set up and then go about pricing and research the pieces you need to build it.

[dobravery 49]

If you plan to hunt go 7.62x39

If you plan to shoot past 200yds a lot go .223 or 5.45

If you plan to stock up on cheap ammo go 5.45

If you plan to buy ammo here and there go .223

If you like the idea of sharing mags with an AR go .223

If you like the idea of sharing mags with a Galil go .223

If you like to re-load go .223

If you like ammo variety to get the best accuracy go .223

If you want to have a variety of inexpensive mags and/or drum mags go 7.62x39

 

I believe East German Weiger .223 mags are pre-ban. You will probably have to post here or look on Gunbroker though.

I'm not sure if you can get around the pre-ban by converting to AR mags or not.

If you install a bullet guide, you can use the original mags if you dremel off the plastic feed lip.

 

As for bullet lethality, everyone has their own preference

.223 Frags on impact. Weakens with loss of velocity due to range or shorter barrel.

5.45 tumbles on impact.

7.62x39 likes to make a big round hole and keep going.

 

Hope something may of helped.

[chevyman097 2,579]

If you install a bullet guide, you can use the original mags if you dremel off the plastic feed lip.

 

 

 

Not 100% true with all the Saiga rifles. My 762x39 works fine with all factory mags without any alteration to the mag. Think it depends.

 

 

More on topic, I dont have an AR or Saiga 223 but im curious.

 

The 223 mags will work in an Ar as well?

[Salmonking 149]

Ok, I'm tired of the poison bullet Nonsense. It was called the poison bullet because, if you were shot with it, you still had enough juice to run away; however, you'd often later died from the wounds received a few hours-DAYS later. The wounds were fatal, yes, but not immediately after being shot- hence, poison. I prefer a "knock you on your ass bullet" over a "poison bullet" any day. I wouldn't want a round that kills over a few hours or days, I'd want one that does the job right the first/second time around. 5.45x39 is a flat shooter, has minimal recoil, is freaking CHEAP, and is more underpowered than the 223. The only thing it has going for it is the cheap surplus, and that will eventually dry up. If you go 5.45x39 be sure to buy a crap-load of surplus. Like lifetime supply crap-load. That's pretty much the only reason people are going nuts over it. I will say that the Hornady V-max bullets look interesting, but you get more mag options, ammo selections, loading options, ect. from .223.

 

Oh, and listen to Dobravery, the dude knows his stuff. Good luck!

[imarangemaster 315]

BAsed on recent information received about the Wolf Military Classic HP made with the 8m3 bullet and how devastating it is, I would have to go with 7.62x39. It is a reloadable as 223 (components available) and you can hardcast linotype/wheel weight bullets and still reload. 7.62x39 is as cheap or cheaper than 223. 5,45 is the cheapest ammo, but if import supplies get cut off, the ammo will be scarce and expensive. Winchester, Remingtom, Hornady, and Federal all make 223 and 7.63x39.

[BpS12 512]

I'm looking at the 7.62x39 as my next longarm. I would prefer a .308 but in my area, it is a bit overkill. The 7.62x39 has a boatload of options and steel 75rnd drums for decent prices. Since I'm looking to Bullpup it, a 20" barrel will reach out about as far as I can reliably shoot anyway and as has been said, ammo is cheap/ made in country and the round has better knockdown.

 

To me, the 5.45x39 is great for a PDW only, ei P90. Shorten your barrel and maybe bullpup it as well, lol.

 

I've never liked the .223, esp, when I was issued them. Varmit rifles should NOT go to war.

 

Just my two bits.

[JBski 6]

If you install a bullet guide, you can use the original mags if you dremel off the plastic feed lip.

 

 

 

Not 100% true with all the Saiga rifles. My 762x39 works fine with all factory mags without any alteration to the mag. Think it depends.

 

 

More on topic, I dont have an AR or Saiga 223 but im curious.

 

The 223 mags will work in an Ar as well?

 

My converted 7.62x39 works great with the factory mag with no alterations. It is one of my two low-cap mags. The other is a Chinese 5rd mag that I bought if I ever wanted to take it hunting.

 

And no, the .223 saiga mags will not work in an AR, they are a completely different mag. I think Gail mags may work, or you could drop the coin for a STANAG adapter to use AR mags. I may pick up a .223 Saiga just to do this so I've got an AK that shares mags with my AR.

[jimdigriz 580]

I prefer a "knock you on your ass bullet" over a "poison bullet" any day. I wouldn't want a round that kills over a few hours or days, I'd want one that does the job right the first/second time around.

 

Then you should probably go with a .308. Anyone with an intermediate caliber rifle should expect to have to shoot the enemy more than once.

[tbtravis 0]

So, I have a Saiga 12ga. Love it. It sold me a Saiga rifle just by being so bad ass. But which one? I know I don't want a .308. I have two Springfield M1A models for that caliber, so I have no interest in another .308.

 

Something in an assault weapon caliber is what I want: 5.56 NATO, 7.62x39, or 5.45x39.

 

Please bear in mind, that while I will soon be moving to Florida, I will still need to keep my weapons NY legal (we have the '94 AWB verbatim) since I have family and friends here that shoot, and will be bringing guns back and going to ranges w/ them every so often. Plus, there may be a time that I move back up here.. I fear FL summers more than a zombie apocalypse. Mag dumps at the Sun seem ineffective.

 

5.56 NATO seems nice. It's a common caliber. I can get match ammo for it easily. Pre-ban hicap AK mags in this caliber seem hard to find, though. Or am I not looking in the right place? Saiga-specific mags more than 10rd won't be NY-legal.

 

7.62x39 mags are plentiful. Ammo is cheap, but not as cheap as it used to be. Hornady has new 7.62x39 loads now, which is an interesting development. A bit heavier than..

 

5.45x39. On caliber alone, this is probably my first choice because of super cheap surplus, and light weight. Preban hicap AK74 mags are easy enough to find. Hornady has a new ballistic tip in this caliber too.

 

But what about the rifles themselves? I realise to get a preban mag of any sort into this rifles, I have to install a bullet guide.. and modify the gun a bit - but if I do so, can I still use regular Saiga mags?

 

What about accessory availability for the three? Any downsides or 'gotchas' I should be aware of? Advantages or disadvantages I'm not seeing?

 

I've been turning this around in my head for a month or two and just can't seem to make a decision.

 

Any builders that are particularly recommended in case I want to go that route?

[tbtravis 0]

If you are thinking of having a full conversion done for you, I would second the suggestion to look at Arsenals. They have a really nice .223 with a solid polymer left side folding stock for $700. If you did a complete conversion you would end up pretty close to that. If you are thinking of doing the conversion yourself the basic conversion is pretty easy. I did two this summer and I'm not all that mechanical.

Between the 5.45 and .223 I'd go with the .223 just for the ammo availability. You can make up some of the difference in ammo cost if you reload. Also Galil mags are available and I think they are pre-ban. Of course you'd want to verify that.

All that said I have a .223 and a 7.62

 

Tom

[my762buzz 141]

7.62x39 likes to make a big round hole and keep going.

 

All my 7.62x39 hp or bt ammo blows shit up and does not make a nice clean .30 hole.

[mikegraffam 11]

If you plan to hunt go 7.62x39

If you plan to shoot past 200yds a lot go .223 or 5.45

If you plan to stock up on cheap ammo go 5.45

If you plan to buy ammo here and there go .223

If you like the idea of sharing mags with an AR go .223

If you like the idea of sharing mags with a Galil go .223

If you like to re-load go .223

If you like ammo variety to get the best accuracy go .223

 

Hope something may of helped.

 

It does. If I want to hunt, or make big holes - I have two M1A rifles for that; one of them shoots sub-MOA and both are completely good-to-go. For this gun, I wanted an intermediate caliber for the same reasons the military likes it: weight, and capacity. To date, all of my guns have been on the heavy side. My woman can't effectively shoulder any of them for an extended period of time.

 

So, I'm looking to get something that she can handle effectively, and that is super quick and manuverable for myself. Range would be CQ to 75 yds or so.

 

I always keep at least 1000 rds around the house per gun, so 5.45 would be real nice for that. Years from now, if 5.45 milsurp dries up, then I ditch the gun and re-evaluate.. I wouldn't have a problem with that.

 

Anyone know the weight difference between fully loaded Saiga in 7.62 and 5.45?

Edited November 4, 2010 by Michael Graffam

[my762buzz 141]

Ok, I'm tired of the poison bullet Nonsense. It was called the poison bullet because, if you were shot with it, you still had enough juice to run away; however, you'd often later died from the wounds received a few hours-DAYS later. The wounds were fatal, yes, but not immediately after being shot- hence, poison.

 

 

I agree the poison bullet idea is rather silly. More people during the civil war died of wound infection days later. So I guess musket ball ammo is Mc Super Sized poison bullet.

[imarangemaster 315]

Not too much difference in weight. Rifles would be the same, and if I remember right, 5.45 rounds weigh something like 70% of the weight of 7.62x39 rounds. It would be like carrying a 7.62x39 with a 30 round magazine loaded with 21 or 22 rounds. For a lightweight weapon with lightweight bullets, I have a 5.75 pound CAR-15 16" 5.56. If I am going to have an AK, I want the 7.62x39. My Saiga restoration, however, is only 6.7 pounds empty.

[jimdigriz 580]

Anyone know the weight difference between fully loaded Saiga in 7.62 and 5.45?

 

A fully loaded Bulgarian 5.45 30 rounder weighs about 17.5 ounces. I seem to remember 7.62x39 mags weighing about a pound and a half fully loaded - about the same as a 5.45 45 rounder - but I don't have any 7.62 mags any more. I'd expect the 5.45 barrel to weigh a few ounces more than the 7.62 barrel.

[Salmonking 149]

I prefer a "knock you on your ass bullet" over a "poison bullet" any day. I wouldn't want a round that kills over a few hours or days, I'd want one that does the job right the first/second time around.

 

Then you should probably go with a .308. Anyone with an intermediate caliber rifle should expect to have to shoot the enemy more than once.

 

Um, with soft points or V-max loads, 7.62x39 could potentially take someone out in one shot provided it was delivered in the right place within 150-200 meters. .308 is a great round, but for the ranges of my suburban neighborhood, it's a bit overpowered. FMJ is a completely different story though.

 

Oh, and I did say first/second shot.

[toshbar 36]

I love my 5.45. I shot a 7 inch group with it at 500 yards and it only cost me 11 cents per shot.

 

Photos available upon request.

[jimdigriz 580]

Um, with soft points or V-max loads, 7.62x39 could potentially take someone out in one shot provided it was delivered in the right place within 150-200 meters.

 

So could a 22 LR.

[Salmonking 149]

Um, with soft points or V-max loads, 7.62x39 could potentially take someone out in one shot provided it was delivered in the right place within 150-200 meters.

 

So could a 22 LR.

 

Haha, good point. I'll be sure to hunt with 22 LR from now on.

[mikegraffam 11]

Anyone know the weight difference between fully loaded Saiga in 7.62 and 5.45?

 

A fully loaded Bulgarian 5.45 30 rounder weighs about 17.5 ounces. I seem to remember 7.62x39 mags weighing about a pound and a half fully loaded - about the same as a 5.45 45 rounder - but I don't have any 7.62 mags any more. I'd expect the 5.45 barrel to weigh a few ounces more than the 7.62 barrel.

 

Hmm. Thanks guys.

 

This has helped a lot. I'm thinking the weight difference between 7.62 and 5.45 might not make up for mag price/availability. 5.45 is still the front runner in my mind (mostly because of the extra 15rds for the same weight), but I'm going to have to have a serious look around at magazine availability.

 

I found 45rd AK74 mags for like $80 a pop. Thats damn steep - and I've paid $50 per for good USGI M14 mags - to the tune of 15 of them!

Granted, that is to keep two rifles fed and I wouldn't need 15 AK74 mags, 5 would do nicely. I wouldn't necessarily want all of them to be 45 rounders, but still..

 

One last question for you all..

 

How does recoil and muzzle blast compare between 7.62x39 and 5.45x39? I enjoy a fair amount of both, myself - 308 ruined me to shooting 22LR. But my woman prefers softer shooting guns.. and is a lot more accurate when she isn't apprehensive to recoil and blast. Obviously, I expect the 5.45 to have less of both - but it is very noticable? How do both of them compare to .223?

[paprotective 362]

Hi,

 

Shooting both the 545x39 and 762x39 rifle the 545 has LESS recoil..

 

I would stick with 30 round mags.. (std and will be lighter).

 

1080 rounds of 545 is $150 shipped most online places..

 

More 545x39 Saigas are do in soon.. or maybe you can rangle an Arsenal one and be DONE..

 

You will find the 545x39 to be VERY accurate out to xyz distance..

 

Best group was 1 1/4" at 100 yards and 2 5/8" or so at 200 yards..

 

Remember if you go 545 to get a 'bottle-brush' to clean the gas tube..

 

 

Albert

[toshbar 36]

 

 

I found 45rd AK74 mags for like $80 a pop. Thats damn steep - and I've paid $50 per for good USGI M14 mags - to the tune of 15 of them!

Granted, that is to keep two rifles fed and I wouldn't need 15 AK74 mags, 5 would do nicely. I wouldn't necessarily want all of them to be 45 rounders, but still..

 

 

I got my 30 round bulgarian 5.45 mags for $9 each.

[jimdigriz 580]

I found 45rd AK74 mags for like $80 a pop. Thats damn steep - and I've paid $50 per for good USGI M14 mags - to the tune of 15 of them!

Granted, that is to keep two rifles fed and I wouldn't need 15 AK74 mags, 5 would do nicely. I wouldn't necessarily want all of them to be 45 rounders, but still..

K-Var is selling the 45 rounders for $39.99. I'm glad I have one, but the 30 rounders are what I usually load up with. They're only $9-10 apiece for surplus mags. I'd definitely pick up way more than 5.

 

How does recoil and muzzle blast compare between 7.62x39 and 5.45x39? I enjoy a fair amount of both, myself - 308 ruined me to shooting 22LR. But my woman prefers softer shooting guns.. and is a lot more accurate when she isn't apprehensive to recoil and blast. Obviously, I expect the 5.45 to have less of both - but it is very noticable? How do both of them compare to .223?

My wife is very happy shooting my 5.45 and .223 AKs. The first time - her very first time shooting a rifle, in fact - she was apprehensive, and wore a coat to cushion her shoulder. She found pretty quickly there was no need for a cushion. Exit quote from her first shooting session with the 5.45 last year: "I LIKE that rifle."

 

5.45 and .223 are great choices if the wife needs to shoot the weapon. The 7.62x39 recoil is roughly double. (I think most women can handle it though, unless maybe they are first time shooters).

 

Jim

Edited November 5, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

assault weapon caliber

 

The word you're looking for is "intermediate rifle cartridge"

 

Please don't help to spread silly terms like "assault weapon"

 

My guns have never assaulted anyone!

[mikegraffam 11]

I found 45rd AK74 mags for like $80 a pop. Thats damn steep - and I've paid $50 per for good USGI M14 mags - to the tune of 15 of them!

Granted, that is to keep two rifles fed and I wouldn't need 15 AK74 mags, 5 would do nicely. I wouldn't necessarily want all of them to be 45 rounders, but still..

K-Var is selling the 45 rounders for $39.99. I'm glad I have one, but the 30 rounders are what I usually load up with. They're only $9-10 apiece for surplus mags. I'd definitely pick up way more than 5.

 

How does recoil and muzzle blast compare between 7.62x39 and 5.45x39? I enjoy a fair amount of both, myself - 308 ruined me to shooting 22LR. But my woman prefers softer shooting guns.. and is a lot more accurate when she isn't apprehensive to recoil and blast. Obviously, I expect the 5.45 to have less of both - but it is very noticable? How do both of them compare to .223?

My wife is very happy shooting my 5.45 and .223 AKs. The first time - her very first time shooting a rifle, in fact - she was apprehensive, and wore a coat to cushion her shoulder. She found pretty quickly there was no need for a cushion. Exit quote from her first shooting session with the 5.45 last year: "I LIKE that rifle."

 

5.45 and .223 are great choices if the wife needs to shoot the weapon. The 7.62x39 recoil is roughly double. (I think most women can handle it though, unless maybe they are first time shooters).

 

Jim

 

WOW! Nice! Thanks for the pointers on the mags.

 

I think 5.45x39 is the winner. Will PSL furniture fit the Saiga 5.45 with just minor fitting w/ a dremel?

[jimdigriz 580]

I think 5.45x39 is the winner. Will PSL furniture fit the Saiga 5.45 with just minor fitting w/ a dremel?

 

There are WASR AK stocks that are just like PSL stocks except that they fit to standard AK receivers instead of the slant cut receivers. I've got a couple for sale if you are interested. They slide right on the gun, typically with very little need for fitting. They have upsides and downsides though. They're about 10 ounces heavier than a polymer stock and pistol grip together. That absorbs recoil better, but the lady may appreciate a lighter weapon. (Mine does). Even more important for a woman, the pistol grip part of the stock is very thick, too much so for most women's hands.

 

A PSL handguard can be fitted with a fair amount of work. It's too long, so needs to be cut down to size. I did it mostly with a box cutter, though the dremel came in handy too. The whole thing was a real pain in the butt, but it came out well.

 

Jim

Edited November 6, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[Dudethebagman 222]

Just a thought -

 

If weight is a serious concern, and this rifle is really for your wife and not you, you might want to consider an m1 carbine. It weighs 5.5 lbs and 30 round mags are available. Muzzle energy is around 950 foot lbs vs. 1200 for a 223. Ballistically it's similar to a .357 mag rifle. m1 carbine fmj ammo will penetrate class 3 vests (see box o' truth). Soft and hollow points are available. Although soldiers bitched about them being underpowered, keep in mind that they were comparing it to the garand. The rifle and ammo will cost more, but GI versions will go up in value as long as you take care of it.

 

I hate to turn anyone off a saiga, but it might make sense in your case if you need a lightweight rifle for shorter range use. I've been thinking about getting a rifle for my ladyfriend to use, and I'm torn between a saiga 223 and an M1 carbine. I think my decision is going to be based on if the rifle is KIND of for her, or actually for her. Ultimately the carbine is lighter and does not need to be converted (and looks less scary). Although smaller caliber Saigas kick less than 7.62, the rifles (unloaded) actually weigh more than 7.62 saigas because they use the same barrel outside diameter.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkswQrC2g7c

Edited November 6, 2010 by Dudethebagman

[jimdigriz 580]

I hate to turn anyone off a saiga, but it might make sense in your case. I've been thinking about getting a rifle for my ladyfriend to use, and I'm torn between a saiga 223 and an M1 carbine. I think my decision is going to be based on if the rifle is KIND of for her, or actually for her. Ultimately the carbine is lighter and does not need to be converted (and looks less scary). Although smaller caliber Saigas kick less than 7.62, the rifles (unloaded) actually weigh more than 7.62 saigas because they use the same barrel outside diameter.

 

Maybe a few ounces at most.

 

An M1 Carbine is a good weapon. Although, I have read in several places - correct me if this is wrong - that although the 15 round mags are good to go, the 30 rounders are less reliable. A Saiga will be considerably more potent than an M1 Carbine, and you can get it down to 6.5 lbs. (unloaded) with a bit of effort.

Edited November 6, 2010 by Jim Digriz