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saiga .308 drum mag


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I wish somebody would make a beta drum mag for the .308 i love my gun i just wish i had a couple of drums for it:)

Sounds like the solution is to buy a csspecs mag, cut it, and buy an xs drum, cut the tower, then weld the csspec mag feed lips to the drum. Ghetto.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.   It has been some time since I have given out the award, but you earned it!   Congratulations, you are the douche bag of the day!

Thats a lot of weight on the mag catch (5 lbs).. I don't know how well that will work. We will see I guess.

 

I challenge you to make it work....

 

I would think it would be fine, I have a 100rd 7.62x39 drum that is fine, I imagine that is around 5 pounds full.

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I may take you up on that... Once I get to the bottom of my current list.

 

I keep meaning to get one of those AK drum mags, I think I make one fit .308 ammo just to test the concept.. Only real difference with a drum is case length, the fingers inside the drum also need to be thinned to allow the fatter cases to fit.

 

A production model would probably be very expensive.

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I stopped counting on stuff being made a long time ago!! I would love a rifle magwell, 308 drum ect but every company that says they are making such just never seems to make it to market. Has MSA released anything yet that they say they are building, the bastard the bitch the few other things.hasnt "its coming in a month" been said for a couple years now. I am surprised no one has even made an adapter for the saiga 308 to take Fal mags or the new 308 Pmags the are very similar to the saiga 308 mags if you compare them. Its to bad I think theres alot more that could be made or done for the riles exspecially the 308. I mean a 308 AK IMHO its as great as the S12 and yes I own them both

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Once the S.308 mags are in production we will have four new products done this year (stamped vepr .308 20rd mag, Saiga 20 gauge 8 round, Saiga 100 in .308 10rd mag).

So stuff is getting made.

 

I'm not exactly sure what is taking so much time with the Allied Arms drum, seems like everything they make is CNC milled, so its not like they have to do a full retool or cut dies and stamps. It should just be a matter of drawing it out and sending it to the mill.. But I'm not in their shop so I don't really know whats going on.

 

It always comes back to that saying "you have three options Cheap, Fast or Good. You can pick any two". In the firearms market, everyone wants cheap, and they demand good quality. So that limits how fast something can be developed.. The saiga .308 is a nice rifle, but there are just to few of them.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Update:

I contacted the makers of this drum again and got the same 6 month answer. Not good news, for me atleast. I really want something with 30 or more rounds for this gun. Oh well, hurry up and wait. Maybe if more people contact them they will hurry up. Lol

For now I can't wait for the stamped mags, thank you for making them.

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I also contacted allied armament about drums and reply was first of 2012 but with the company going bankrupt in I think 2009 not sure if it will really happen.

The company making them is XS Products.

Edited by King of the Hill
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I also contacted allied armament about drums and reply was first of 2012 but with the company going bankrupt in I think 2009 not sure if it will really happen.

The company making them is XS Products.

 

They just changed names use to be allied armament 3 months ago when I originally contacted them they where still under the allied name with the x-mag products but Probley change name to get away bankruptcy because if u Google allied armament one of the first things u see is about them going bankrupt in 2009.

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  • 1 year later...

I recently e-mailed XS and asked about the drum, here is the exchange,

 

 

 

 

 

6-9 months or longer now that things are crazy.

On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:22 AM, XXXXXXX <XXXXXXX@XXXXX.com> wrote:

A new inquiry message was submitted.

Name: XXXXXXX

Email: XXXXXXX

Message:

Hello,

I know at one time you were planning on making a drum for the Saiga 308, is this still indevelopment? If so is there any ETA, I understand these may be tough questions in the current political climate, but is there any hope for us Saiga 308 owners>

Thanks,



--

James Malarkey
Sales Director
Xs Products
Coming soon our X-15 drum, 50 round drum for AR-15.
Ask about our special pre-sale offer.
Edited by Makc
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If I was short on magazines I'd just stock up on whatever I could get my hands on at this point...just sayin'. The drum mag seems to have no purpose (for .308 anyways) other than for fun.

 

What, 50rds is too much for a 308? How about this, the purpose of the drum is to have twice as many shots before you have to re-load.

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On a range I can see why some might like one...but with the price of ammo and regular magazines these days, I think there's very little justification beyond fun.

When I see professionals and soldiers using them and explaining why, I'd be convinced that they're practical. But until that happens, they're just the heaviest, most cumbersome, least reliable and durable (most complicated), least economical, and least practical magazine option out there...at least for me and in my opinion. What would you do in a shootout with a drum after emptying/shooting its rounds? Drop it on the ground (I don't even know, are drum mags durable enough for that)? Then leave it there ($$$ to abandon)? Or pack it out (it won't fit in a mag pouch obviously, no you're stuffing something in a pack)? I guess if you were supporting a vehicle from inside it and were expecting to see hordes of enemies it'd be practical (no worries about mag drop, maximizing rounds per minute)...

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On a range I can see why some might like one...but with the price of ammo and regular magazines these days, I think there's very little justification beyond fun.

 

When I see professionals and soldiers using them and explaining why, I'd be convinced that they're practical. But until that happens, they're just the heaviest, most cumbersome, least reliable and durable (most complicated), least economical, and least practical magazine option out there...at least for me and in my opinion. What would you do in a shootout with a drum after emptying/shooting its rounds? Drop it on the ground (I don't even know, are drum mags durable enough for that)? Then leave it there ($$$ to abandon)? Or pack it out (it won't fit in a mag pouch obviously, no you're stuffing something in a pack)? I guess if you were supporting a vehicle from inside it and were expecting to see hordes of enemies it'd be practical (no worries about mag drop, maximizing rounds per minute)...

 

What makes you think the x-series drum is not reliable? It actually is quite compact if you look at it. I can't believe I have to address this, if you ever happen to be in a shoot out, fuck yes you drop that fucker on the ground if you need to. I would venture to guess they did a drop test in their R&D.

 

How about this one? A 50rd drum would be great for suppressive fire in a defensive situation.

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Sounds like the solution is to buy a csspecs mag, cut it, and buy an xs drum, cut the tower, then weld the csspec mag feed lips to the drum. Ghetto.

 

The Xs drum is aluminum, our mags are steel. Welding conventionally is almost impossible. The other thing to make it complicated is that the drum is single stack, and our mags are double stack, you would need to reduce the mag to single stack for the drum to feed into it.

 

Best to either wait for them to do it. Or use stick mags.

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Sounds like the solution is to buy a csspecs mag, cut it, and buy an xs drum, cut the tower, then weld the csspec mag feed lips to the drum. Ghetto.

 

The Xs drum is aluminum, our mags are steel. Welding conventionally is almost impossible. The other thing to make it complicated is that the drum is single stack, and our mags are double stack, you would need to reduce the mag to single stack for the drum to feed into it.

 

Best to either wait for them to do it. Or use stick mags.

Yeah they did that on Spruance class destroyers. Aluminum superstructure welded to steel deck. Not a good idea.

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On a range I can see why some might like one...but with the price of ammo and regular magazines these days, I think there's very little justification beyond fun.

 

When I see professionals and soldiers using them and explaining why, I'd be convinced that they're practical. But until that happens, they're just the heaviest, most cumbersome, least reliable and durable (most complicated), least economical, and least practical magazine option out there...at least for me and in my opinion. What would you do in a shootout with a drum after emptying/shooting its rounds? Drop it on the ground (I don't even know, are drum mags durable enough for that)? Then leave it there ($$$ to abandon)? Or pack it out (it won't fit in a mag pouch obviously, no you're stuffing something in a pack)? I guess if you were supporting a vehicle from inside it and were expecting to see hordes of enemies it'd be practical (no worries about mag drop, maximizing rounds per minute)...

Let me start with this.

 

Heavy weight is only bad if it's not useful.

 

1 50 round drum magazine may be heavier than 1 20 round magazine, but it may indeed be lighter than the 2.5 magazines it replaces (although I doubt this point until data is gathered). At the very least, it's technically a space saver for your LBE gear. Most LBE loadouts will run around 100-400 rounds dependent on caliber, magazine sizes, and various other requirements for the operator. I personally feel comfortable with the 180 to 250 range as it allows me enough ammo to operate without feeling under supplied nor overly burdened (another 200-300 rounds goes in my pack, for resupply).

180 rounds in 20 round mags = 9 mags, 1 for my gun, 8 on my gear

250 rounds in 20 round mags = 12.5 mags which I'd round up to 13 for 260 rounds, 1 mag for my gun, 12 on my gear

180 rounds in 50 round drum mags = 3.6 mags which I'd round up to 4 for 200 rounds, 1 mag for my gun, 3 on my gear

250 rounds in 50 round drum mags = 5 mags, 1 for my gun, 4 on my gear

For argument's sake:

400 rounds in 20 round mags = 20 mags

400 rounds in 50 round drum mags = 8 mags

 

This saves space on gear and reduces number of mag changes from 8 to 3, from 12 to 4 and from 20 to 8 which saves time.

 

Only idiots drop magazines.

Buy an extra large dump pouch.

 

They do indeed make drum mag pouches, hell XS products even provides pouches with purchase from what I gather.

 

Now, do 20 round mags have their place? HELL YAH! If you're planning on fighting light (gun and run, assault force) and for day to day operations, this probably makes more sense.

 

Do 50 round drum mags have their place? Another HELL to the YAH! If you know you're going to need to expend the ammo rapidly and make many mag changes (suppressing fire for defense or assault), this is the route to go.

 

The militaries of the world use both magazines and belt fed/drum fed weapons in every squad based unit. 2-3 riflemen with magazine fed weapons, 1 belt fed/drum fed weapon, maybe a designated marksman in the stead of the spare rifleman.

 

Hordes of enemy are not the reason for drums/belt fed weapons, suppressing fire is the reason. Fire and maneuver tactics.

 

I hope this helps you comprehend the reasoning behind drums for more than just "fun."

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I guarantee two of my 24 round ProMags (which actually fit 28 rounds) are gonna weigh a lot less than any .308 drum mag and take up less space. Even three full mags might be lighter or close in weight to one full drum.

 

So someone who drops a magazine in the heat of a firefight is an idiot? I'd rather drop my magazine than get shot if that's what it came to and I think most would agree. Dropping magazines isn't something anyone wants to do, but it happens in fast-paced tactical situations and I don't think anyone would think twice about it if they're getting shot at.

 

Yeah, obviously if you're shooting an M249 SAW or M240, bigger magazines are part 'n parcel...and like I said in my last post, weapons that support vehicles (usually mounted to them) have a use for non-standard magazines. But we're talking a .308 semi-auto assault rifle here, not a squad automatic weapon. Like you implied, the drum mags are used by machine gunners, not by anyone else usually.

 

A drum mag pouch...what a knee-slapper!

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Gulo are you in the military? It seems a drop pouch big enough to fit even three empty 50 round drum mags would be huge! I'd say with a heavy round like the 308 a 50 round drum is very very limited in it's tactical uses like mounted assault or straight support from a fortified postiton. It seems most all modern military that use a 308 use it to take advantage of it's extra range and power over regular issue ammo. Also if you notice the only drums in use world wide are for 7.62, and 5.56

 

Gulo are you in the military? It seems a drop pouch big enough to fit even three empty 50 round drum mags would be huge! I'd say with a heavy round like the 308 a 50 round drum is very very limited in it's tactical uses like mounted assault or straight support from a fortified postiton. It seems most all modern military that use a 308 use it to take advantage of it's extra range and power over regular issue ammo. Also if you notice the only drums in use world wide are for 7.62x39mm, and 5.56

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I guarantee two of my 24 round ProMags (which actually fit 28 rounds) are gonna weigh a lot less than any .308 drum mag and take up less space. Even three full mags might be lighter or close in weight to one full drum.

 

So someone who drops a magazine in the heat of a firefight is an idiot? I'd rather drop my magazine than get shot if that's what it came to and I think most would agree. Dropping magazines isn't something anyone wants to do, but it happens in fast-paced tactical situations and I don't think anyone would think twice about it if they're getting shot at.

 

Yeah, obviously if you're shooting an M249 SAW or M240, bigger magazines are part 'n parcel...and like I said in my last post, weapons that support vehicles (usually mounted to them) have a use for non-standard magazines. But we're talking a .308 semi-auto assault rifle here, not a squad automatic weapon. Like you implied, the drum mags are used by machine gunners, not by anyone else usually.

 

A drum mag pouch...what a knee-slapper!

First off, it's not an assault rifle, it's not an assault weapon, it's a battle rifle due to the 308 caliber and magazine capacity, the same way a garand or a M-14 is a battle rifle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_rifle

 

 

Second, yes, dropping mags is stupid. If you're in a situation that you seriously need to drop a mag, you failed to plan to have cover for your magazine change. You then failed to improvise cover. You then failed to give yourself enough time to change your magazine and store the magazine in your dump pouch, which adds maybe a second at most if you've developed the proper muscle memory. Dropping magazines is a sin, Somalia taught us this when the ammo resupply came in the form of .223 on stripper clips without magazines, meaning that some troops essentially didn't have a resupply.

 

Third, as stated previously, lighter isn't always better. I'd be willing to put money on the reliability (it was important to you before with the drum magazine) of a CSSPEC mag over your Pmags and probably say that the reliability of a single stack drum mag isn't much of a question.

 

Fourth, many SAW gunners, BAR users and the like may be firing a full auto machine gun, however, they also don't just let rip with a mag dump. They tend to become very adept at single, double, short burst and long burst trigger pulls. Semi-auto can achieve similar results when applied properly and quite honestly more accurately with less ammo expended usually. History has repeatedly verified the effectiveness of 308 battle rifles in combat. Interestingly, there's one conflict in particular where the sides were so evenly matched that the only real differences between the two sides was training and semi-auto versus full auto 308 caliber battle rifles. I speak of course of The Falklands War, guess what the british were packing?

Semi-auto FN FALs.

 

Finally, I don't see what's "a knee slapper" in regards to a drum mag pouch?

They've been in usage for quite awhile now: http://www.google.com/search?q=drum+mag+pouch&hl=en&tbo=u&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Nl0AUZypKYn7qwGU2YHICA&ved=0CDsQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=447

 

and to relate back to the product in question - you can check out their pouches on their website.

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First, you're right, I'm sorry, a Saiga 308 is an MBR, not an assault rifle...oh wait, that doesn't matter, because it's not a machine-gun! Which has been my point: unless you're treating your Saiga like a SAW, a drum mag is not going to be most people's choice for a number of valid reasons.

 

Second, you're right about all the mag drop stuff but I'm not a trained soldier so I can imagine I'd drop a mag in a real-life firefight regardless of what kind of mag. And I still think there's a legitimate reason to drop mags if that one second could save your life. And if you don't have the muscle memory or a good quick place to put the mag, dropping it is going to save you a lot more time than one second.

Third, CSSPEC's metal mags are definitely going to be more durable than any plastic mag, but reliability is a different thing. Because of the metal mags' durability they can be more reliable if they're reliable in function to begin with.

Fourth, you talked some more about what machine-gunners do...but again I'm not sure what relevance that has to drum mags unless you're treating your S308 like it's a SAW however machine-gunners do that. The reality is very few of us will ever want or need to do something like that. As I said before I can see a legitimate use of the S308 drum mag at the range.

 

Fifth, Drum mag pouches make me laugh because I could never imagine being comfortable with dealing with drum mags in a real-life scenario much less removing it from that pouch or securing it there. The whole deal would be just cumbersome, cumbersome, cumbersome. Have fun dropping for cover and crawling while laying on your drum mag in a pouch.

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Third, CSSPEC's metal mags are definitely going to be more durable than any plastic mag, but reliability is a different thing. Because of the metal mags' durability they can be more reliable if they're reliable in function to begin with.

 

 

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

 

It has been some time since I have given out the award, but you earned it!

 

Congratulations, you are the douche bag of the day!

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So gulo military service or not? And you linked to a single drum mag pouch. How are you spossed to fit two or three empty drum mags in a pouch like you would a mag drop pouch? And also I see the saiga as a fun heavy caliber rifle that would serve the same role as a m14 in combat if it were to be used in combat and the last thing that rifle would be used like is a machine gun. Hell the reason we use a poodle shooter now was the m14 being to harsh on full auto and what's it used like now?? A DMR rifle mostly with a scope. And 20 round mags.

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So gulo military service or not? And you linked to a single drum mag pouch. How are you spossed to fit two or three empty drum mags in a pouch like you would a mag drop pouch? And also I see the saiga as a fun heavy caliber rifle that would serve the same role as a m14 in combat if it were to be used in combat and the last thing that rifle would be used like is a machine gun. Hell the reason we use a poodle shooter now was the m14 being to harsh on full auto and what's it used like now?? A DMR rifle mostly with a scope. And 20 round mags.

I would personally carry three mag dump pouches, strategically positioned on my gear, that would hold 2 drum mags a piece, this would allow me to always be covered in my mag storage capacity. I didn't link to any actual dump pouches but come on man, improvise and overcome, if you can't find a dump pouch that will fit, make your own. I haven't checked dump pouches from the various 100 or so companies that make them in the past six months so I can't actually confirm if there's an actual dump pouch that would fit two drum mags, but I'm sure there's some big enough for the job, even if not made for that usage in mind. Needless to say, I wouldn't consider it an issue. Hell, if I couldn't find a mag dump pouch i'd repurpose a russian 2 drum mag holder sling pouch and possibly make them molle compatible: Problem solved. :)

 

I see the saigas and veprs as a Weapons System. They can indeed be used for a Patrol Rifle, a Battle Rifle, a Designated Marksmen Rifle, a Sniper Rifle, a Suppressive Fire Rifle, and many other roles just by selecting different features and mods.

For suppressive fire, you don't necessarily require full auto/select fire, but it's sure handy. As previously stated, full auto isn't always beneficial and typically isn't shot with a long burst but rather single and double taps of the trigger, done rapidly.

Think this: pop, reacquire target, pop pop, reacquire target, pop pop, reacquire target, pop pop pop reacquire target, you get the point.

Can you do that with a semi auto? I can.

 

I also previously stated that: "Now, do 20 round mags have their place? HELL YAH! If you're planning on fighting light (gun and run, assault force) and for day to day operations, this probably makes more sense."

I think the M14 is a wonderful rifle and quite honestly, we probably should've just continued to develop the system for it instead of switching to the M16 and later having to brush the dust off the M14's and then develop more mods on the fly. If you follow the history of the FAL compared to the M14, the M14 could easily have followed the path of the FAL instead of being relegated to constant resurrection. That's another story entirely though and don't really want to get into it right now. The point is that the main role of a battle rifle is that it can do a little bit of everything fairly well. Day to day operations with a battle rifle will build your strength for sure, but it's effects in combat are very desirable (Read: Useful Weight). It turns most urban cover into concealment, it maintains effectiveness and accuracy to a minimum of 800 yards with a 16" barrel, it does a better job of defeating body armor systems, and it'll make would be enemies go running and screamin, cryin for their momma. Well maybe not the last part but if there's any reason that 308 BRs (including a saiga or vepr 308) wouldn't make effective suppressive fire weapons, it's that in some circumstances, attempts of suppressive fire tend to kill the enemy without actually having to flank the enemy due to the 308 punching through the cover that the enemy chose. I wouldn't personally be disappointed (if i were the guy flanking) that I just had to run my ass off only to find my buddy (providing suppressive fire) had already shot the guy and I didn't have to.

 

The reasons why the military hasn't quite jumped on using only Battle Rifles again?

I'd say it's mostly budgetary reasons and politics. Although I'll admit a lot of folks like running the lighter systems. Hell, I like lighter systems sometimes myself but that's me being lazy. Everyone always wants lighter but you've got to weigh your options and think if lighter is actually better in the given circumstances or if you'll run into circumstances where lighter won't really benefit you?

As far as too harsh on full auto? That sounds like whining and complaining "My shoulder's sore!!! WAAAAA!!!" lolz

Recoil is like spicy food, some people can't deal with it and should stick to eating potatoes.

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So service?? I'll bet not. And not it too harsh cause it's useless like hey atleast im keeping their heads down caisson firing all my rounds WAY over them. And would it be cumbersome to say the least to "make" drop pouches that would fit two of these big ass drums, placed in different place on your "gear"? I mean come get real the only reason for a drum mag is prone or static defense, hump a main barrel rifle then hump the same rifle with atleast half the weight again in ammo and mag an it only makes the thing what 7" wide that would be comfy. A .308 has advatanges and carrying 50 rounds exacerbates it's weakeness not it's advantages. He'll a 30 round stick mag is too much since it will make it harder to "get low". Put 20 round mags a fixed 6x scope with peep throughs and your using the rifle to it's fullest. If you need 50 round without reloading get an assault rifle and if you need a 30 cal get either an ak or hell I'd use an ar15 in 300 blackout with one 100 beta mag and then surfire 60 round quads as my loadout. It would be about half the weight and a little weaker but the weight saving would be worth it. There's a saying oz=pounds,pounds=pain

And

It lives true weather your humping a three day hunt in the wilderness or a week long trek behind enemy lines. And no I have been in the military buy I have been in law enforcement and done mucho hunting for days on end and have carried guns for a living and fun for days and a 18 pound loaded rifle would be a curse.

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Why is it that every subject turns into a arguement on this forum? Why does it matter so much to anyone that someone might want or need a drum for there .308 it's not like it's un heard of? And IMO it's a personal choice and if it makes...Tom , Dick, or Harry feel better that they have 50 or more rounds at there disposal...well so be it!!! BUT UNFORTUNATELY for saiga/veper owners we do not even get to make that choice because all of the respectable mag companies don't feel like there's a market/demand for them. Maybe we should spend a little more time sending emails to companies to try an get them to see there's a great demand for such a drum? Idk just my two cents!!!

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So what about a metal mag makes it more reliable in function beyond that it's more durable?

 

Just because a mag is made out of metal doesn't necessarily mean it's going to function well. I'm not saying metal mags aren't reliable or durable, CSSPEC's mag have gotten great reviews so I'm sure they're both. I was speaking in general...nothing about a mag being metal makes it more reliable in function (like feeding rounds reliably), it's just more reliable in the sense that it is durable and will function reliably by not being broken so easily. If a metal mag doesn't function well to begin with, who cares if it's more durable?

Edited by ColoradoKLR650
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