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M16A1 flash hider on Saiga


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#1 imarangemaster

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 04:53 PM

Since I am 6 foot and 240, recoil on the 7.62x39 Saiga is not an issue (at least now that my shoulder is completely healed after a year!). I toyed with the idea of different brakes for my threaded baby, and even bought an AMD65 snake brake for $15. On reflection I regretted it, remembering how big a fire ball and how deafening it is.

Not worrying about recoil, since I shoot only semi auto, and I don't waste ammo repeatedly jerking the trigger to quickly empty the magazine, the next important thing would be muzzle flash. I started looking at photos in magazines and web images of 7.62x39 AKs used at training facilities and top trainers, and even real world serious operators. I noticed an amazing number had a flash hiders - either a M16A1 or Phantom (which is a derivation of the three prong M16 FH), or a Druganov / M14 long style.

I thought back to my first Saiga, a 5.56x45, that I put a modified M16A1 flash hider on. In dusk firing, the muzzle flash was nil compared to no flash hider. I then cruised YouTube videos of AKs with the M16A1 style verses others, and found very little flash.

While the world is full of golly gee whiz Vortex, Phantom, RAZR, etc., etc., etc. You can spend $129 on a flash hider, or spend $10 on the TAPCO 14x1mm L M16A1 style flash hider, slightly re-engineered for 30 cal. It cost $10 or less, and is a nice pakerized finish. Compact, short, and according to my experience with the .223 and videos of 7.62x39s, VERY effective. I mounted it with a 14mm spark plug crush washer to keep it tight without loc-tite. I'll post a pic soon. It even looks cool. Since I am doing this on the cheap, and more worried about practicality than looking "AKish," I think I will keep it rather than going with a 24mm FSB.

Who knows, maybe I will even get on of the AR15 pencil barrel bolt on bayonet lugs, and put an M9 Probis M16 bayonet on my Saiga!

Edited by imarangemaster, 16 November 2010 - 04:55 PM.

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#2 Ben Vampatella

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 06:06 PM

a few years ago, I sold a bunch of these on here to a few guys.

one of them, i brought to a machine gun shoot, and gave it to a friend there. he stuck it on his AK pistol, and it completely hid the flash.

this was the cheap birdcage design in 14x1LH, with the 5 cuts in it, not the m16 3 prong version.

we were stunned that it worked so good, and totally killed the flash on the 8" barrel 7.62x39 pistol.


I think juggernaut has one of the ones i sold him. ask him how it works.
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#3 Jim Digriz

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 07:25 PM

Since I am doing this on the cheap, and more worried about practicality than looking "AKish," I think I will keep it rather than going with a 24mm FSB.


I think the only reasons to go with a 24mm FSB is that you want the 74 muzzle brake, or you want a more authentic look. I prefer a flash hider myself, except perhaps with large calibers.

Edited by Jim Digriz, 16 November 2010 - 07:32 PM.


#4 imarangemaster

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 07:25 PM

Here's a picture. It is the one you said, just a copy of the M16A1 Birdcage Flash Hider. I saw videos shot at night and there was literally no flash. In the mid 80s when I was an Armorer/Rangemaster/Instructor at a PD n Washington state, I saw material where the original SWAT magazine did test of the different flash hiders. M16 three prong was best, closely followed by M16A1 birdcage. Different like FN FAL, HK, etc. were not as good.

It is astounding that something this simple and inexpensive works so well.

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#5 SirROFL

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 08:35 PM

I put one of these on my .223 Saiga. It changed from about 4 feet fireball with Tula ammo, to just a tiny spark or no flash at all.

#6 post-apocalyptic

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 09:28 PM

They do make a flash hider threaded for 24mm, y'know:

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;)

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#7 Jim Digriz

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 09:34 PM

They do make a flash hider threaded for 24mm, y'know:

Posted Image

;)


It weighs 4.7 ounces - a whole lot more than the A1 flashhider - and is not necessarily a great flash hider:


#8 Juggernaut

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 10:02 PM

It's what I run...Posted Image

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#9 imarangemaster

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 10:22 PM

I haven't fired this one when it was almost dark like I did with the .223. Last week I fired it just in low-light, dusk conditions. I saw no flash at all.
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#10 VaiFanatic

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 08:45 AM

If Juggs runs it, it's gotta be good! On a serious note, it's a thrifty flash hider, and I've seen it in action too, and it absolutely works. I still have yet to actually change out my FSB as I'm overcome with laziness.

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#11 imarangemaster

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 09:03 AM

For this one cut it back half way, if it is not threaded get a threading kit for 14mm L.
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#12 VaiFanatic

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 09:04 AM

I thought of doing that, but I want my bayonet lug!

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#13 Jim Digriz

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 09:19 AM

For this one cut it back half way, if it is not threaded get a threading kit for 14mm L.


I've got one in hand, and it looks to me look that half way back is not far enough. Does it work OK in that configuration?

#14 imarangemaster

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 09:39 AM

I cut mine back exactly half way and it was plenty.
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#15 leadslinger

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 09:44 AM

here is thread where that shows demos of various flash hiders and brakes.
http://forum.saiga-1...=1


New one i just rand across: slant,birdcage,74 and krink
clikc on see all in small blue letters under right hand column to get them all.

http://www.youtube.com/user/strat81718

hope it helps in you decision. I would like to find a video of a 4 piece bulg. cone flashhider on a stock rifle to see how it looks and perfoms.

Edited by leadslinger, 17 November 2010 - 09:53 AM.

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#16 Jim Digriz

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 07:35 PM

I cut mine back exactly half way and it was plenty.


Thanks. Very useful to know, since I was having a hard time finding a tube/pipe cutter that could get as close to the sight tower as I was trying to. However, now I'm finding the tube cutter wheel is being chewed up without making a lot of progress. I've managed to make a shallow trench at least, but at this rate, it will take 7 or 8 wheels. What did you use to make the cut? Any tips?

#17 imarangemaster

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 08:18 PM

Put a small hose clamp on the shroud allinged with the shallow trench made by tubing cutter (I had the same problem). Use a dremel with one of the grey fiber impregnated cutting wheels. Cut halfway around (the side opposite the screw gizmo for the hose clamp) in steps, then rotate the hose clamp 180 degrees. It kept my cut about as straight a a tubing cutter using the clamp as a guide. The crush washer takes up uneven-es.

As for bayonet, a nice Probis or Lan Cay M9 bayonet with wire cutter will work with the birdcage. Just get one of those "post ban" pencil barrel M16 add-on bayonet lugs. That is what I am going to do, since they are a better bayonet than any com-block one. WHen I get around to doing it, I will post pictures and a link to the adapter.
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#18 Jim Digriz

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 08:52 PM

Put a small hose clamp on the shroud allinged with the shallow trench made by tubing cutter (I had the same problem). Use a dremel with one of the grey fiber impregnated cutting wheels. Cut halfway around (the side opposite the screw gizmo for the hose clamp) in steps, then rotate the hose clamp 180 degrees. It kept my cut about as straight a a tubing cutter using the clamp as a guide. The crush washer takes up uneven-es.


Thanks for the tips. One more quick question: How do you know when you have broken through the shroud with the dremel? I don't want to cut up the barrel itself, and there is almost zero space between the shroud and the barrel.

#19 imarangemaster

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 09:36 PM

Consider the threading cuts into the barrel, so a little will not hurt. Just do it a little at a time all the way around. measure how thick your shroud is, and paint that much of the tip of a toothpick with a black marker to use as a depth probe. This is the fourth shroud I cut, so I ave a feel. The steels looks a smidge different, and the sound of the dremel is different on the harder barrel steel. Just go slow and use the probe. Also try to force a taper bladed flat screw driver in the cut, and the shroud will pop off when you are deep enough. TAKE YOUR TIME!
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#20 leadslinger

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 09:38 PM

Jim if you go slow with the dremel and use a bright over head light you will see when the dremel breaks through the shroud. It will be a little frustrating but taking your ever loving time will pay off. once you see it break through you can twist off with pliers of choice. I wish i would have thought of the hose clamp idea would have made it mush easier to make straight cut. I ended up filing shroud to make it even all the way around. i have a slant break on mine. I do have one of the bird cage lying around still haven't had the time to try it out.
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#21 KC913

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 10:08 AM

Thanks. Very useful to know, since I was having a hard time finding a tube/pipe cutter that could get as close to the sight tower as I was trying to. However, now I'm finding the tube cutter wheel is being chewed up without making a lot of progress. I've managed to make a shallow trench at least, but at this rate, it will take 7 or 8 wheels. What did you use to make the cut? Any tips?


I used a $10.00 tubing cutter from Lowes and it worked perfect on my 7.62x39 shroud. The shroud piece popped right off when it cut clear through and it didn't touch the barrel. I destroyed 1 cutting wheel the first time around because I was tightening it too much. On the 2nd wheel I went slow, kept it lubed up with oil and tightened it very little every couple of rotations. Worked perfect and only took ~10 minutes. I ended up with a cleaner cut than most of the dremel jobs I've seen. I took a hand file to the edge when I was done to clean it up a bit. Ended up looking nice. But I've switched to a Bulgarian FSB since then.

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#22 Jim Digriz

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 10:22 AM

I used a $10.00 tubing cutter from Lowes and it worked perfect on my 7.62x39 shroud. The shroud piece popped right off when it cut clear through and it didn't touch the barrel. I destroyed 1 cutting wheel the first time around because I was tightening it too much. On the 2nd wheel I went slow, kept it lubed up with oil and tightened it very little every couple of rotations. Worked perfect and only took ~10 minutes. I ended up with a cleaner cut than most of the dremel jobs I've seen. I took a hand file to the edge when I was done to clean it up a bit. Ended up looking nice. But I've switched to a Bulgarian FSB since then.


Wow. You have the very same cutter that I have, and were able to accomplish it in 10 minutes? I spent a couple of hours yesterday and didn't get very far. The only thing that is obviously different in your description is that you used oil, but it's hard to believe it makes THAT much difference...

#23 KC913

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 10:31 AM

Wow. You have the very same cutter that I have, and were able to accomplish it in 10 minutes? I spent a couple of hours yesterday and didn't get very far. The only thing that is obviously different in your description is that you used oil, but it's hard to believe it makes THAT much difference...


Yeah, it went pretty quick. Couple rotations, tighten slightly, couple rotations, tighten, etc. Oil definitely helps. It reduces friction so it goes quicker / smoother.
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#24 Jim Digriz

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 04:11 PM

Guys, this thread has been of inestimable benefit to me. I was finally able to get the shroud off one of my Saigas. One more to go, and now that I know what I'm doing, it should go pretty quickly this time.

#25 imarangemaster

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 12:06 PM

I bought that same one, and it didn't even score the shroud. Used oil and went slow and just chipped the cutter wheel?? Maybe my shroud was harder.
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#26 magikbike

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 11:11 PM

18 November 2010 - 05:22 PM[/size]]
As for bayonet, a nice Probis or Lan Cay M9 bayonet with wire cutter will work with the birdcage. Just get one of those "post ban" pencil barrel M16 add-on bayonet lugs. That is what I am going to do, since they are a better bayonet than any com-block one. WHen I get around to doing it, I will post pictures and a link to the adapter.

Hi, 1st post, getting things togther for my first conversion and I wanna bayonet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So, where do you find one of these? I've been looking and looking and can't find anything. I don't quite feel ready to tackle a fsb swap so.... A bolt on solution would be optimal, for now.
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