A. Travers, Meet Obama's Pick to Head the ATF

[bohound 281]

One hell of a thread this has turned into.

Welcome to the S-12 forum...

 

But the question stands.

If you were instructed to disarm law abiding Americans, contrary to the 2nd...

Would you do it attempt to?

 

ETA;

 

Does it not strike you as ironic that your Avatar resembles an Al-Qaeda operative more than a traditional American police officer?

I mean, despite the differing head gear?

 

 

Pauly... If I weren't happily married...

 

Why do these self proclaimed law ENFORCEMENT officers always seem to hide behind a mask, is my big question? If they come to our house wearing masks, we'll know why they're there, and our drive is long, straight, and we've already got a range card ready.

 

Good luck disarming our household, masked men. (I'm sorry your "honor", we thought they were banditos... We couldn't read the letters on their chests through our NVGs at that range, we just thought they foolishly provided us with a lighter colored point of aim!)

[Heath_h49008 442]

This thread, and those posting freely in it, gives me hope. If Confiscation were ever attempted, they would have to shut sites like this down first.

 

They will need:

 

1. The excuse. Some incident or emergency that "Forces" gun confiscation for everyone's safety. In England and Australia they used child killings IIRC.

 

2. Control of the information. They cannot allow armed free men communications and get away with anything.

 

Wait for it. History has shown it will be attempted here, as it has in every other country of our size and political inclination.

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

I wish more cops looked like THIS:

 

[Paulyski 2,227]

Wait for it. History has shown it will be attempted here, as it has in every other country of our size and political inclination.

I absolutely love this series of Thomas Cole paintings entitled the course of empire.

So beautifully depicted, yet so true.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bJMxhvVf0o

 

I'd say we're in the transition which takes place after the consummation of empire, & before the destruction... The thieves have already sold us out. China has faster rail systems & super computers than us. Our age is ending & eventually the populous is going to figure it out. If we try to take our age back, China won't just stand around & let us. The UN & other organizations are slowly influencing our government to see that we cannot stand up to the thieves.

 

 

Oh & Bohound.....

Got a sister?

[JamesLi 47]

Now... JamesLi... Answer the question you sidestepped.

But the question stands.

If you were instructed to disarm law abiding Americans, contrary to the 2nd...

Would you do it attempt to?

You've been ordered to confiscate all firearms, illegal & legal, to disarm the citizenry.

Perhaps Marshall Law has been declared, perhaps not, perhaps the Emergency FEMA Government has taken control?

You're in a group of your peers, what ya gonna do?

He's not going to answer.

You can be sure he's checking this thread, but logged in anonymous or not logged in & viewing as a guest.

His name disappeared from the active users list real quick yesterday indicating he actually selected to log out, otherwise it would have taken 30 min+ to disappear.

 

But here's an educated guess with select rationale;

 

If he's used the storm-trooper avatar since he was a teen & wanted to be a LEO all his life, chances are, whether he's actually an LEO, or just posturing for the internet by saying such, he's convinced himself that the "law" & "right" are synonyms.

So I'd be willing to bet that he would suit & boot up & go along with it like we've seen happen in so many authoritarian societies in the past.

 

History doesn't repeat its self because of our ignorance, it repeats its self due to our nature.

 

There's two groups of people who think themselves right...

One group does what they know in their hearts to be right.

The other does what those they feel are superior to them tell them is right.

Both must deal with the consequences of their actions.

I prefer to be in the former group, being as I will have to stand in front of the Lord one day, regardless of when that day is, & I doubt "I was just following orders" will suffice as an explanation for involvement in any stage of the atrocities that are to come.

Once again, history repeats its self not due to man's ignorance, but due to man's nature.

 

My answer would be no, I would not. I am a gun owner, just like the rest of you. I personally carry a firearm so that I can protect, not kill. I believe it is a right and duty to protect yourself and those you care about. I would say most officers would respond in the same manner. I cannot speak for all, but I know that MY peers would give that answer. Within this same answer I will say I realize I am not really welcome here whatsoever.

 

I am deeply disappointed in the fact that many of you are so quick to judge me not as a person, but as a profession. You might as well judge me by the color of my skin or religion. I have never given any reason to made anyone think that I am some jackbooted thug lying in wait to steal your god given freedom away from you.

 

As you put it Paulyski, I do what I know is right in my heart while working. I go above and beyond to make sure everyone I deal with is treated with the utmost respect and dignity. If given orders to do something I truly believe to wrong, I would not do it.

 

As for if I am really a police officer, I would like to be more open as to my actual identity. However, seeing as how there have been remarks made here that they would want to kill law enforcement officers if the opportunity arose maybe you can understand why I am hesitant. Also, I have worn a face cover while working, albeit extremely rare. During those times directly below on the left side of my chest was my badge with my identification number, and to the right my rank and name. I will gladly give out that information if asked in person. I doubt many Al-Qaeda operatives are the same.

 

I want to thank those of you who have been helpful in providing me information in regards to the firearm we all love and spawned these forums. I seriously doubt I'll be lurking around here much more.

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

JamesLi, no need to split, at least not on my account.

 

Mine was a honest question posed to you with no malice.

I'm the son of man who served both as Serviceman & Sheriffs Deputy, and have much respect for the vast majority of LEOs.

I've known good and not so good LEOs personally, ya'll are human.

I do not want to kill anyone, particularly not LEOs/soldiers doing their duty lawfully & righteously.

Edited November 29, 2010 by ChileRelleno

[bigsal 757]

 

 

You're operating on a large misconception there sal.

 

 

How do you know LEOs would do this?

Because the personality type that typically joins Law Enforcement tends to follow orders. Im not going to rehash the authoritarian personality debates of the 1960's here, but come on man.... you cant tell me 99% of cops wouldn't just blindly follow orders...

 

I just find it disturbing that our police force is attempting to project a paramilitary appearance more & more lately...

One dresses in differing ways to project differing messages.

What message does the guy in your avatar project?

Not friendly neighborhood defender of the public, that's for sure.

 

Bingo. The current status of law enforcement is a counter weight to the civilian population. The fact that they wear ski mask/ninja gear and are allowed access to FA weapons while civilians are not is something out of 1984.

 

Anyone that knows me knows I am not against Law Enforcement, but rather against para-military meter maids who think I am their fucking slave.

 

JamesLi:> Remember, you fuckers serve us, not the other way around....

Edited November 29, 2010 by bigsal

[bohound 281]

Just so there is no misconceptions, JamesLi... I would not WANT to kill any PEACE officers (that USED to be the term y'all were referred to as, before somebody decided to militarize y'all). That said, if (and that is a BIG "if") any law ENFORCEMENT officers EVER showed up on our property attempting to violate my or my family's Constitutional rights (ie: a cowardly and unlawful "no knock")... You can be sure we would shoot first and ask questions later.

 

I think ANY rational person on this forum would do similar in a situation where heavily armed paramilitary folks were advancing on them... It's human nature.

 

I truly hope that you are sincere about standing YOUR ground on your stated beliefs, and I applaud you for stating them. IF the situation ever arose, I pray for the entire PEACE officer community, for there will be virtual targets on all of you. Remember that there are many very unsavory folks out there that for what ever reason feel they at some time in their lives were dealt an unfair hand by you or your bretheren.

 

Just remember that the phrase "I was just doing my job", or "I was just following orders" will not save you from the pit, when your time to be judged comes- and act accordingly.

 

I don't envy you or your job, but remember that a large percentage of the "laws" you "enforce" are NOT based on common law, have no victim, and are essentially means to impose physical and or financial bondage on folks. It's not your fault, granted... But why anybody would want to be a part of this police state machine is beyond me... Especially with more in our citizenry awakening to this FACT daily. The jig's about up for the "justice" system as it stands now, and I personally believe we as a country are irreparably beyond the tipping point.

 

Stay alert, aware and cautious, and for heaven's sake- THINK before you act. Just because you BELIEVE something is right, doesn't mean it IS. Just because something is a LAW doesn't mean it is MORAL and JUST.

[DogMan 2,343]

If anyone thinks that there will be ANY cops refusing to comply with orders to take guns away from citizens then you are just naive. And I'm not saying there won't be the occasional extremely rare oddity but as a rule they will follow in lock step. The gang mentality will take over. They will justify it some way in their own mind or they will believe the supposed justification that they have been fed by their higher-ups. Most will do it just to keep their jobs and careers, and their OWN guns.

Do you think there were not a lot of cops in D.C. who disagreed with their draconian and unconstitutional gun laws there for decades? How many of them did you hear about that refused to enforce those laws that prevented citizens from protecting themselves? Absolutely fucking none. I've heard a lot of officers say they didn't agree with the assault weapons ban. How many of them made a stand on that for the benefit of ordinary citizens? Absolutely fucking none.

So go ahead and believe there will be LEOs out there taking our side when the gun grabbers come. The closest thing to any sympathy from them you will hear is....."I'm sorry to have to do this, but........."

[cellsworth 21]

In certain situations, police officers wear head/face covering to provide some protection from debris (broken glass, etc.) that may well be encountered in some operations. It is not to look like a "ninja," or the "secret police." They may wear goggles for the same reason, and you don't see ninjas wearing goggles. If you were to pay attention, you would see that firefighters often wear the same type of head/face covering for some of the same reasons (fire protection too). There is no sinister motivation behind it, just a simple factual explanation.

 

Many police departments are obtaining more "tactical" equipment. The main reason is to be able to deal with better armed criminals (a reaction to the North Hollywood bank shootout, etc.) and "active shooter" scenarios; including the anticipated Mumbai-style terrorist attack. There is no Big Brother government mandate that this be done. Nor is it to be paramilitary jackbooted thugs. Departments are simply trying to be prepared to respond effectively, as the citizens they serve demand. By the way, police officers need to jump through the same hoops as everyone else to personally own NFA items.

 

Most police officers I have met (and there are hundreds) are very much "gun guys" who are staunch supporters of the Second Amendment. I don't doubt that some police officers would just "follow orders" and confiscate guns from law abiding citizens, but it would not be anywhere near the % cited in this thread. The only fair way to judge someone is by THEIR ACTIONS, not your own preconceived notions that have been applied to an entire heterogeneous group.

 

Oh, for the record, I would not confiscate a gun from any law-abiding (or, if firearms possession was made illegal, otherwise law-abiding) citizen. Violent felons are the only ones I am interested in disarming.

[cellsworth 21]

I wish more cops looked like THIS:

 

 

 

Me too!

[cellsworth 21]

If anyone thinks that there will be ANY cops refusing to comply with orders to take guns away from citizens then you are just naive. And I'm not saying there won't be the occasional extremely rare oddity but as a rule they will follow in lock step. The gang mentality will take over. They will justify it some way in their own mind or they will believe the supposed justification that they have been fed by their higher-ups. Most will do it just to keep their jobs and careers, and their OWN guns.

Do you think there were not a lot of cops in D.C. who disagreed with their draconian and unconstitutional gun laws there for decades? How many of them did you hear about that refused to enforce those laws that prevented citizens from protecting themselves? Absolutely fucking none. I've heard a lot of officers say they didn't agree with the assault weapons ban. How many of them made a stand on that for the benefit of ordinary citizens? Absolutely fucking none.

So go ahead and believe there will be LEOs out there taking our side when the gun grabbers come. The closest thing to any sympathy from them you will hear is....."I'm sorry to have to do this, but........."

 

 

What is the factual basis for your absolute assertion that "the gang mentality will take over..."? How many police officers do you personally know well? There are already many laws on the books that individual officers already choose not to enforce because they disagree with them. I know this from extensive, direct personal experience.

 

In most cases it would be a simple matter not to enforce any new gun ban. You simply ignore it, just as many officers do when they observe countless other things that are technically violations of the law. Heck, there have even been Presidents who have openly indicated that they would not (as head of the executive branch) enforce certain laws if Congress passed them. The "cops in D.C." who disagreed with the unconstitutional gun ban/restrictions would simply not have actively looked for violations, and would have ignored those they happened upon. Why would you expect to "hear" about such occurrences? They wouldn't be advertised.

 

Individual officers own guns via the same mechanisms, with the same restrictions, as any other citizen. Taking other people's guns would not enable them to keep their own. If you are referring to department-issued guns, their department could easily insist that the officer only carry those while actually on duty, so the officer would still be in the same boat as everyone else the majority of the time, including in their own home.

 

As for the "Assault Weapon Ban," whole police organizations openly spoke out against it. When it was proposed that it be re-instated, whole police organizations opposed it and noted that it was, and would be, ineffective in reducing violent crime. As for individual officers not enforcing it; again, why would you expect to hear about it? They aren't going to advertise the fact any more than an officer who disagrees with seatbelt laws is going to advertise that he ignores seatbelt violations.

 

As Bigsal has noted above, the real key is to make sure that it never gets to the point that there is legislation mandating the disarming of law-abiding citizens. As voters, it is our obligation to do all we can to insist that the Constitution be respected and adhered to.

[joebanda1213 59]

I HATE not dislike HATE cops for the most part and agree that we are becoming a police state. The local law enforcement around here have had budget deficits (GSP 8 million I belive for just the past month) and are active like the gestapo. Got to find a way to fund those next gen glocks and charger squad cars. I think there are much better ways for them to operate.

 

With that said these people do risk there necks atleast towards the cities on a daily basis. They diserve atleast a fraction of a fraction of the same respect we show for our troops.

 

Yes hard asses we know you will kill a cop before you hand over your guns... but For the integrity of these boards I just hope yall limit the bullying and disrespect.

[DogMan 2,343]

If anyone thinks that there will be ANY cops refusing to comply with orders to take guns away from citizens then you are just naive. And I'm not saying there won't be the occasional extremely rare oddity but as a rule they will follow in lock step. The gang mentality will take over. They will justify it some way in their own mind or they will believe the supposed justification that they have been fed by their higher-ups. Most will do it just to keep their jobs and careers, and their OWN guns.

Do you think there were not a lot of cops in D.C. who disagreed with their draconian and unconstitutional gun laws there for decades? How many of them did you hear about that refused to enforce those laws that prevented citizens from protecting themselves? Absolutely fucking none. I've heard a lot of officers say they didn't agree with the assault weapons ban. How many of them made a stand on that for the benefit of ordinary citizens? Absolutely fucking none.

So go ahead and believe there will be LEOs out there taking our side when the gun grabbers come. The closest thing to any sympathy from them you will hear is....."I'm sorry to have to do this, but........."

 

 

What is the factual basis for your absolute assertion that "the gang mentality will take over..."? How many police officers do you personally know well? There are already many laws on the books that individual officers already choose not to enforce because they disagree with them. I know this from extensive, direct personal experience.

 

In most cases it would be a simple matter not to enforce any new gun ban. You simply ignore it, just as many officers do when they observe countless other things that are technically violations of the law. Heck, there have even been Presidents who have openly indicated that they would not (as head of the executive branch) enforce certain laws if Congress passed them. The "cops in D.C." who disagreed with the unconstitutional gun ban/restrictions would simply not have actively looked for violations, and would have ignored those they happened upon. Why would you expect to "hear" about such occurrences? They wouldn't be advertised.

 

Individual officers own guns via the same mechanisms, with the same restrictions, as any other citizen. Taking other people's guns would not enable them to keep their own. If you are referring to department-issued guns, their department could easily insist that the officer only carry those while actually on duty, so the officer would still be in the same boat as everyone else the majority of the time, including in their own home.

 

As for the "Assault Weapon Ban," whole police organizations openly spoke out against it. When it was proposed that it be re-instated, whole police organizations opposed it and noted that it was, and would be, ineffective in reducing violent crime. As for individual officers not enforcing it; again, why would you expect to hear about it? They aren't going to advertise the fact any more than an officer who disagrees with seatbelt laws is going to advertise that he ignores seatbelt violations.

 

As Bigsal has noted above, the real key is to make sure that it never gets to the point that there is legislation mandating the disarming of law-abiding citizens. As voters, it is our obligation to do all we can to insist that the Constitution be respected and adhered to.

Well, you start off by demanding a "factual basis" for one of my assertions yet throughout the rest of your post you forget to offer any factual basis for anything that you say. Is there a double standard here?

Anyway, regarding the "gang mentality" comment that is my opinion, and as such, it requires no "factual basis". And assuming you disagree with my opinion (you didn't say you disagree) then you can offer no factual basis for that either.

Actually I know several police officers pretty well. None of them has ever indicated to me that they pick and choose which laws they like or don't like and enforce them accordingly. Gun laws not withstanding, the fact that you say that there are "many laws on the books that individual officers already choose not to enforce" because you "disagree with them" is actually kind of disconcerting. If you had said that you choose to not enforce some laws because they are unconstitutional, I would have found that a lot more palatable, but I digress.

You made the statement that "In most cases it would be a simple matter not to enforce any new gun ban." So is that what you guys did during the last assault weapons ban? Um, I don't think so.

A few alleged anecdotal instances of police looking the other way in some cases do not add up to any kind of meaningful protection for the general public should an all out gun ban be imposed.

We do agree on the last paragraph of your post and I agree that is where the focus should be.

[Vultite 57]

Saying this douchebag is going to disarm the citizens is too extreme, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a move to more heavily regulate NFA items and possibly take away the NFA trust system....

[Paulyski 2,227]

Now... JamesLi... Answer the question you sidestepped.

But the question stands.

If you were instructed to disarm law abiding Americans, contrary to the 2nd...

Would you do it attempt to?

You've been ordered to confiscate all firearms, illegal & legal, to disarm the citizenry.

Perhaps Marshall Law has been declared, perhaps not, perhaps the Emergency FEMA Government has taken control?

You're in a group of your peers, what ya gonna do?

He's not going to answer.

You can be sure he's checking this thread, but logged in anonymous or not logged in & viewing as a guest.

His name disappeared from the active users list real quick yesterday indicating he actually selected to log out, otherwise it would have taken 30 min+ to disappear.

 

But here's an educated guess with select rationale;

 

If he's used the storm-trooper avatar since he was a teen & wanted to be a LEO all his life, chances are, whether he's actually an LEO, or just posturing for the internet by saying such, he's convinced himself that the "law" & "right" are synonyms.

So I'd be willing to bet that he would suit & boot up & go along with it like we've seen happen in so many authoritarian societies in the past.

 

History doesn't repeat its self because of our ignorance, it repeats its self due to our nature.

 

There's two groups of people who think themselves right...

One group does what they know in their hearts to be right.

The other does what those they feel are superior to them tell them is right.

Both must deal with the consequences of their actions.

I prefer to be in the former group, being as I will have to stand in front of the Lord one day, regardless of when that day is, & I doubt "I was just following orders" will suffice as an explanation for involvement in any stage of the atrocities that are to come.

Once again, history repeats its self not due to man's ignorance, but due to man's nature.

 

My answer would be no, I would not. I am a gun owner, just like the rest of you. I personally carry a firearm so that I can protect, not kill. I believe it is a right and duty to protect yourself and those you care about. I would say most officers would respond in the same manner. I cannot speak for all, but I know that MY peers would give that answer. Within this same answer I will say I realize I am not really welcome here whatsoever.

 

I am deeply disappointed in the fact that many of you are so quick to judge me not as a person, but as a profession. You might as well judge me by the color of my skin or religion. I have never given any reason to made anyone think that I am some jackbooted thug lying in wait to steal your god given freedom away from you.

 

As you put it Paulyski, I do what I know is right in my heart while working. I go above and beyond to make sure everyone I deal with is treated with the utmost respect and dignity. If given orders to do something I truly believe to wrong, I would not do it.

 

As for if I am really a police officer, I would like to be more open as to my actual identity. However, seeing as how there have been remarks made here that they would want to kill law enforcement officers if the opportunity arose maybe you can understand why I am hesitant. Also, I have worn a face cover while working, albeit extremely rare. During those times directly below on the left side of my chest was my badge with my identification number, and to the right my rank and name. I will gladly give out that information if asked in person. I doubt many Al-Qaeda operatives are the same.

 

I want to thank those of you who have been helpful in providing me information in regards to the firearm we all love and spawned these forums. I seriously doubt I'll be lurking around here much more.

I apologize for the fact that I come off like a dick sometimes James.

 

I don't know that anybody here WANTS to engage in a gunfight with the police.

I simply state the fact that many would lose their lives if confiscation were to happen, & the officers that were rounded up for the raids likely wouldn't change their minds at the last moment.

 

Do stick around.

We like all types here.

The stormtrooper looking officer often catches attention, being as many of us are parinoid fuckers (if ya couldn't tell ) But all but a few know there's a difference between a job & a person, & the fact that a lot of different personalities enter into all different fields.

Just google the words "Doctor Molests" you get about 874,000 results.

 

It will be interesting how it goes down if it does.

Loud mouths like myself will likely be labeled as insane so we're no longer allowed to own firearms & be stopped as we were driving to separate us from our big guns while our houses are raided. It happens all the time as it is.

But You must admit if task forces were going out to enforce a new law, there would be no shortage of enforcers.

Many see the "law" as concrete & will enforce it regardless of right or wrong.

Many others will forsake their ideals to seem like a team player & keep their jobs, being as in this tough economy career changes are a bitch.

 

Once again, sorry if I was too harsh.

I can be a dick when debating certain hotbed issues.

We all love the vast majority of our resident LEOs, & we do have quite a few who are very active posters... more than a few in this thread alone.

I guess, at least in my case, the masked storm trooper avatar just brought about certain preconceived notions of the user's personality.

Usually when the citizen sees someone in a ski mask & it's not snowing, pleasant things aren't about to happen.

 

Sorry bro.

[uzitiger 193]

It's not the local police we have to worry about, it's the BATFE storm troopers who raid people's houses in the middle of the night with MP5 pointed at sleeping people and acting like gestapo thugs. That agency has a long history of doing that and those old enough to remember the Waco raid on the Branch Davidian cult where they came in shooting automatic weapons and ended up murdering 80 people. They later showed an example of an 'illegal' weapon they claim to have found in the fire which they presented to the DemocRAT led congressional hearing. The weapon did not look like it was in any fire. The wood did not have any singe marks and the bluing was intact. A burned rifle would have charred stocks and the steel would have been rusted. The NRA used to report ATF abuses many years ago and Soldier of Fortune wrote an article about them around 1980 which I believe was titled "BATF. America's Gestapo". The NRA no longer writes about ATF abuses but JPFO made a movie showing their rigging a test where a defective FN-FAL was called a machine gun where they tried to frame the gun builder.

[sunnybean 939]

Chile,

 

Back to your OP. Here's a snippet of the BS this guy, and NBC, pushes...

 

http://www.nbcchicago.com/station/as-seen-on/Warzone_Weapons_Assault_City_Streets_Chicago.html

Edited December 18, 2010 by sunnybean

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

He (Traver) is now going to be ushered in with Melson's resignation.

 

Obama, Holder & Traver... Hello Chicago.

[SOPMOD 254]

Pro Forcible Disarmament of US Citizens, no grandfathering, turn them in or have them taken at gun point.

 

The day they try this i think there will be a civil war because i for one WILL NOT give up my guns even at gunpoint!!!! and i know i cant be the only one who feels this way.

So, civil war ehh?

 

I would bet that if a pack of 10 fat LEO's in swat gear show up to your house and ask for your guns, your not only gonna not fight back, but you would likely wet yourself.... talking tough is one thing, but in reality, most people will not fight.

 

The key is not letting it get to that point. The key is keeping your rifles where some cop with a middle-school education can't find them. The key is an active resistance before we move into an East Germany scenario.

 

We are already in an East Germany scenario Sal. We can't come and go without the consent of the government,our nation puts a greater percentage of it's citizens in prison than any other nation on earth, 28% of Americans have been in Controlled Custody, our police resort to violence when confronted with demands for due process or proof of probable cause and our government is full of cronyism and corruption on a level that is staggering.

 

They got in under the wire by placating us with useless stuff and easy credit and now they are stripping all of that away and people are panicking. They are killing war vets in the streets for not groveling fast enough, they are arresting people for thought crimes.Now that many are waking up to this reality they are panicking."Regular Joes" walking around with that crazy look in their eyes spoiling for a fight and the fallout is dead citizens and dead LEOs from confrontations over BS regulations when no real crimes were committed.

 

For those who are already losing everything and have nothing left 10 fat LEOs won't scare them much but American LEOs are obviously willing to kill or imprison any or all of us given an adequate excuse so please ask yourself if any gun that you currently own is really worth dying for?

 

 

Probably Not..

Edited June 21, 2011 by SOPMOD

[BronCobraJet 80]

It's not the local police we have to worry about, it's the BATFE storm troopers who raid people's houses in the middle of the night with MP5 pointed at sleeping people and acting like gestapo thugs. That agency has a long history of doing that and those old enough to remember the Waco raid on the Branch Davidian cult where they came in shooting automatic weapons and ended up murdering 80 people. They later showed an example of an 'illegal' weapon they claim to have found in the fire which they presented to the DemocRAT led congressional hearing. The weapon did not look like it was in any fire. The wood did not have any singe marks and the bluing was intact. A burned rifle would have charred stocks and the steel would have been rusted. The NRA used to report ATF abuses many years ago and Soldier of Fortune wrote an article about them around 1980 which I believe was titled "BATF. America's Gestapo". The NRA no longer writes about ATF abuses but JPFO made a movie showing their rigging a test where a defective FN-FAL was called a machine gun where they tried to frame the gun builder.

I was in Houston the whole time that happened. not only did they fail to produce any weapons that were fully auto, they slaugtered innocent men and women and children. (look up the vids on the web)(the feds shot at them when they tried to flee) and then they instantly bulldozed everything over. They knew they fucked up from the start, but had no way of politically or polity backing down without looking like a bunch of fucking buffoons. Janet Reno and Bill Clinton should burn in hell like all the victims did. They never displayed one full auto gun that was suppososed to be manufactured there. Not ONE fucking gernade. IT WAS A SET UP! Shit, that wasn't even the theme of the story when it was over, it was Koresh, a wild Church preacher of his own words, he was abusing kids BULLSHIT!. It was a fucking dog and pony show gone wrong. Clinton and Reno should hang from the gallows downtown, for that one. Government agents, federal agents shot civilians. Army tanks shot fucking civilians! Read the reports. Watch the vids. GOVERNMENT shot civilian. No shit was found, they bulldozed it over immediatly. end of story. US forces killed babies. End of story. Read the stuff. Look it up, watch the videos. US forces killed civilians and nothing was found. If you can find them, watch the news reports of Reno. She was shacking so visably bad because she knew she was going to be hung out to dry for this travesty. Yet "slick" willie got away with it. I hope he burns in hell.

Edited June 21, 2011 by BronCobraJet