Optics and Mount

[bigsal 757]

Some pics from one of Horse's beta testers of the 30 mm mount on a WASR and an unconverted Saiga 12 and Saiga 308:

Jim, is that mount polymer? It looks futuristic almost like the head designer at Tapco had a child with the owner of Kel-Tec and than that child subsequently designed a mount... I mean, I am not going to call this product an abortion (just yet), but it looks heavy, encumbering and awkward. I will wait for the final product to come out before giving it the official Sal-Thumbs-Down.

[jimdigriz 580]

Jim, is that mount polymer?

 

No. The designer says (in a thread at WT), "The mount itself is made of 6061 T6 aircraft grade aluminum...All of the hardware is steel. The screws used are Camcar and made in the USA. The stop pin is 18-8 stainless."

 

 

It looks futuristic almost like the head designer at Tapco had a child with the owner of Kel-Tec and than that child subsequently designed a mount... I mean, I am not going to call this product an abortion (just yet), but it looks heavy, encumbering and awkward. I will wait for the final product to come out before giving it the official Sal-Thumbs-Down.

 

I'm not sure why you would think it appears any more heavy and awkward than any of the other side mount rails on the market. It's (to a degree) the nature of side mount rails.

 

The current mount weighs 7.6 ounces (which in my view is pretty good for a side mount). He has been revising it from beta testers comments, some of which concerned weight. Here is an illustration of a the old one compared to the next proposed iteration:

I sent him some comments about that one, as a couple of the changes look like mis-steps to me. He responded pretty quickly and seems happy to receive feedback and suggestions.

 

Jim

Edited December 1, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[Dudethebagman 222]

There are only two co-witnessing options that I'm aware of right now: the Ultimak, and the side mount with 30 mm rings that Kalinka offers. The Ultimak is rock solid; the latter mount has been reviewed poorly.

 

There are several versions of that Kalinka mount. There was a one-piece mount that got bad reviews because the ring was too flimsy and prone to breaking. There is also a 2-piece version that uses the same base as the picture post-apocalyptic posted with a different ring. It's the "Tim Heffron Version 3."

I have this one, it works fine, and the ring is plenty stout. I did have to shim it and raise the sights to get it perfectly aligned on my Century gun, but it's solid and feels like it weighs about the same as the UTG QD mount it replaced. I blame the gun as much as anything on having to shim it, as very little on that gun is straight. Getting the dust cover off is no problem at all. It cost about $100. I think it's a good cowitness alternative if you don't want to use an Ultimak for whatever reason (for example, you don't want the weight out front, or like me, you don't want to expose your sight to the heat and shock of an Ultimak and are too cheap to drop the cash on an Aimpoint).

 

It's this mount (minus the scratches, I just found this pic on another forum):

Edited December 1, 2010 by Dudethebagman

[jimdigriz 580]

There is also a 2-piece version that uses the same base as the picture post-apocalyptic posted with a different ring. It's the "Tim Heffron Version 3."

I have this one, it works fine, and the ring is plenty stout.

 

I'm glad to hear it works for you, but I've seen lots of complaints over at theakforum.net about that one too. Just search for "Heffron".

Edited December 1, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[Dudethebagman 222]

There is also a 2-piece version that uses the same base as the picture post-apocalyptic posted with a different ring. It's the "Tim Heffron Version 3."

I have this one, it works fine, and the ring is plenty stout.

 

I'm glad to hear it works for you, but I've seen lots of complaints over at theakforum.net about that one too. Just search for "Heffron".

 

I'm not a member, and it wouldn't let me search. I'm just curious - I don't have a dog in the fight or anything - what were they complaining about? I can see it being a problem if it was too far off center to cowitness on a bunch of rifles. If the mount were as sloppily designed as a lot of AKs are sloppily assembled, I can see it being a problem. I have no basis for comparison, as it worked okay on mine.

 

Just curious.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Dudethebagman

[kope007 14]

I'll probably get yelled at but...

I can't understand the fascination with cowitness. I find it very distracting. I guess if you have an rds that does not quickly detach then it is a good idea. Should the dot fail you won't miss a beat. But I can get my side mount off in the time it takes for one aimed shot.

I've tried using my AR in action rifle matches with a co witness rds and find it distracting and dificult when having to aquire multiple targets. So now i am always with irons flipped down. It seems to me the advantage of a rds is that you have less points of focus, dot & target.

Maybe you have to train yourself to not see the irons.

IMHO don't tear me up too bad.

[Dirge 4]

Can anyone clarify what this "Horse" mount is? I hear it being mentioned here and there, and every Google search turns up nothing.

 

Anyway, I've been thinking about getting a PK-AS as an optic for my Saiga. I'm aware it doesn't co-witness with the irons, but I like how the black dot can still be used if the red dot goes down, acting as a backup and pseudo replacement for the irons. The only downsides I'm aware of are the battery life and having to take the optic off to make adjustments while zeroing. The Ultimak/Aimpoint combo may be better, but those Micro T-1 and H-1 optics are a bit rich for my blood. Besides, I'd probably end up putting that Aimpoint on my AR 15 instead, requiring me to buy another one and end up spending close to $1200 when all's said and done. I'd rather use all that money towards something a bit more constructive, like another gun and more ammo. XD

 

Anyone have experience with the PK-AS?

[calvin118 2]

For me, a light is a requirement on any defensive long gun. The only good option for mounting a light on an AK that I am aware of is an Ultimak with an offset mount. None of the short AK rails give me enough space to mount the light and then actually hold the gun. Since I am going to have the Ultimak anyway for my light and prefer a RDS on an AK, a co-witnessing side mounts is just extra weight to me. If I want to mount a scope for hunting or target shooting, there are a lot of cheaper options that will work fine. If someone wanted an ACOG on their AK it might be different.

 

PS. I know of a lot of people who use an H1 or T1 on their Ultimaks and I have never heard of a heat related problem. Aimpoints can handle it.

Edited December 1, 2010 by calvin118

[jimdigriz 580]

Can anyone clarify what this "Horse" mount is? I hear it being mentioned here and there, and every Google search turns up nothing.

 

It's not for sale yet, and is undergoing beta testing. I included links and pics earlier in the thread.

 

 

Anyone have experience with the PK-AS?

 

I found it too awkward to use with the far left offset mount, and ended up selling mine and saving for an Aimpoint.

[jimdigriz 580]

I'll probably get yelled at but...

I can't understand the fascination with cowitness. I find it very distracting...

Maybe you have to train yourself to not see the irons.

IMHO don't tear me up too bad.

 

It doesn't distract me. I look for the red dot when it is on, and usually shut it off if I want to use irons (although that isn't necessary). I like having the same cheekweld for both sighting options; plus, putting on and removing side mounts tends to wear on the device.

[Dirge 4]

Can anyone clarify what this "Horse" mount is? I hear it being mentioned here and there, and every Google search turns up nothing.

 

It's not for sale yet, and is undergoing beta testing. I included links and pics earlier in the thread.

 

 

Anyone have experience with the PK-AS?

 

I found it too awkward to use with the far left offset mount, and ended up selling mine and saving for an Aimpoint.

 

I happen to have a low profile Belarus side mount that is offset just a hair to the right, but otherwise very close to center. Hypothetically speaking, if you had such a mount and you had the Weaver rail version of the PK-AS, would your opinion of it be different?

[jimdigriz 580]

I happen to have a low profile Belarus side mount that is offset just a hair to the right, but otherwise very close to center. Hypothetically speaking, if you had such a mount and you had the Weaver rail version of the PK-AS, would your opinion of it be different?

 

It's a pretty good optic, but even in that config would be too high for me. I'm pretty much sold on co-witness and Aimpoints.

[Dudethebagman 222]

 

PS. I know of a lot of people who use an H1 or T1 on their Ultimaks and I have never heard of a heat related problem. Aimpoints can handle it.

 

That's what I've heard, but I wasn't willing to spend the money and get an Aimpoint. I'm not sure my bushnell would handle it. For my intended uses, my cheap bushnell with cowitness mounted on the rail is sufficient. If the thing dies (and it hasn't yet on the original battery in several years use and probably a case and half of ammo), I'd have the iron sights as back up. But if I won the lottery or knew I was going to war with the thing, I'd probably buy an Aimpoint.

[bigsal 757]

I'm not sure why you would think it appears any more heavy and awkward than any of the other side mount rails on the market. It's (to a degree) the nature of side mount rails.

 

The current mount weighs 7.6 ounces (which in my view is pretty good for a side mount). He has been revising it from beta testers comments, some of which concerned weight. Here is an illustration of a the old one compared to the next proposed iteration:

I sent him some comments about that one, as a couple of the changes look like mis-steps to me. He responded pretty quickly and seems happy to receive feedback and suggestions.

 

Jim

 

Jim,

Im thinking the whole unit with the aimpoint is to bulky and comes up to high. I like everything I own to be compact. It is good to see that its not polymer, that will definately put this thing in the running. I dont like the rings as a connection point ether. Anyway when you get one please do a write up on it as you are one of the select few members whose opinion I value.

[jimdigriz 580]

Jim,

Im thinking the whole unit with the aimpoint is to bulky and comes up to high. I like everything I own to be compact. It is good to see that its not polymer, that will definately put this thing in the running. I dont like the rings as a connection point ether. Anyway when you get one please do a write up on it as you are one of the select few members whose opinion I value.

 

I appreciate you saying so. However, I will not be getting one of these, preferring, like you, things to be compact; why have a Comp M3 or M4 when you can have a Micro that does the same thing but is half the size and weight? I hope for the success of Horse's first mount, because his next project will be a co-witnessing side mount designed specifically for the Aimpoint Micro. I like my Ultimaks, but would rather have a side mount, if it checks out as durable and reasonably light.

Edited December 2, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[HarvKY 72]

Sal,

 

Im not sure if you have had a chance to read through the various threads on other sites re; this mount designed by screenname: Horse.

 

The goal was a quality mount for various 30mm red dots(Aimpoint, PK-23, etc) that was aligned center of bore (not usual soviet offset) and low, yet still be able to field strip.

 

Kalinka came out with the "Heffron" model which appears to be their original mount with just an incredibly ugly (IMO) very heavy looking steel ring that is more offset than original model so as to be center aligned. They bumped the price from I believe $59 to now $99 for these extensive changes ;-)

 

The above posters positive comments about the Heffron mount may be the first Ive actually seen posted online anywhere [i could have missed something though]. Ive seen "a couple" negative comments on other sites as well as in the review section of Kalinkas page itself - re; not center aligned, etc.

 

Horse's preliminary selling price of maybe? $200 is awfully rich for my blood but he is designing several other type mounts and appears to know what he's doing - he;s the engineer, not me ;-) ... so I tend to believe these will be pretty good quality mounts. As with all new products, we'll have to see what the final price will be. Post introductory production might lower the cost ...hopefully.

 

I have a PK-23 anxiously awaiting a nice comfy ring to ride centerbore.

 

Cheers, Harv

[bigsal 757]

Sal,

 

Im not sure if you have had a chance to read through the various threads on other sites re; this mount designed by screenname: Horse.

 

The goal was a quality mount for various 30mm red dots(Aimpoint, PK-23, etc) that was aligned center of bore (not usual soviet offset) and low, yet still be able to field strip.

 

Kalinka came out with the "Heffron" model which appears to be their original mount with just an incredibly ugly (IMO) very heavy looking steel ring that is more offset than original model so as to be center aligned. They bumped the price from I believe $59 to now $99 for these extensive changes ;-)

 

The above posters positive comments about the Heffron mount may be the first Ive actually seen posted online anywhere [i could have missed something though]. Ive seen "a couple" negative comments on other sites as well as in the review section of Kalinkas page itself - re; not center aligned, etc.

 

Horse's preliminary selling price of maybe? $200 is awfully rich for my blood but he is designing several other type mounts and appears to know what he's doing - he;s the engineer, not me ;-) ... so I tend to believe these will be pretty good quality mounts. As with all new products, we'll have to see what the final price will be. Post introductory production might lower the cost ...hopefully.

 

I have a PK-23 anxiously awaiting a nice comfy ring to ride centerbore.

 

Cheers, Harv

Harv:> I am banned on Warriortalk so I cant say as Ive had time to watch the threads there. That being said $200 is a bit rich for my blood for the mount only. Keep us posted if you do end up getting one!

[TX-Zen 287]

The PK01-VS arrived a couple days ago and I took a few pics. A better review done by Citadel-SC is over on AR15.com. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=56&t=132281&page=2

 

As I suspected the PK sits much too low to remove the dust cover while mounted. On my SGL31 the top cover wouldn't budge even though the PK is not quite touching it, on my SLR105 (which is my standard for a perfectly built AK, everything is buttery smooth and easy to operate) the PK gave enough clearance to push the recoil spring in but not enough room to rotate the top cover out of the way. The main difference is that this optic sits very centered over the bore and there really is nowhere for the top cover to go, unlike the PK-A and PK-AS which are offset to the left and give enough room for the top cover to move.

 

The PK definately cowitnesses but I find that when using my right eye to get a good sight picture of the FSB and rear sight that the scope body obscures the view in the bottom right, so that effectively the cowitness view is partially blocked down in the lower right corner of the scope body. It works but perhaps I need to experiment more to get a better view.

 

Weight is at 1 pound 6 ounces on my digital scale, slightly higher than advertised I think.

 

 

PK01-VS and PK-A

 

PK and Rakurz

 

SGL31

 

Reticule view

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Z

[jimdigriz 580]

Thanks for the update.

[Horse 39]

Hi guys.

 

 

Sorry its taken me so long to register here. If you have any questions let me know.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Horse

[jimdigriz 580]

Hi guys.

 

 

Sorry its taken me so long to register here. If you have any questions let me know.

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Do you have a CAD prototype of the Micro mount, or are you waiting until you finish the 30 mm mount to do any work on it?

 

Thanks.

[Horse 39]

A very rough one yes. But I need to go buy a H1 to make sure my dims are correct before I can move forward.

 

Then I need to apply the same KISS principles that were involved in the AKM beta-to-alpha changes. At that point I will produce a mockup to guage interest.

[Horse 39]

PS - as I have told you before Zen - your SVD-S S12 is going to be the death of me. I'm not supposed to covet the things my neighbor has - yet I cannot resist.

[Dudethebagman 222]

Not to beat a horse that's dead, buried, and pushing up daisies, BUT.... I braved the snow last week to go shooting with some friends, and apparently left my cheap-o Bushnell red dot on for the last 6 days. It's still kicking ass on the original battery that came with the sight, 2 1/2 years later, after going through nearly 2k rounds and being left on overnight more than once before last week.

 

Just thought I'd share because it's nice to share.

[SovietSurplus 3]

For me, a light is a requirement on any defensive long gun. The only good option for mounting a light on an AK that I am aware of is an Ultimak with an offset mount. None of the short AK rails give me enough space to mount the light and then actually hold the gun. Since I am going to have the Ultimak anyway for my light and prefer a RDS on an AK, a co-witnessing side mounts is just extra weight to me. If I want to mount a scope for hunting or target shooting, there are a lot of cheaper options that will work fine. If someone wanted an ACOG on their AK it might be different.

 

PS. I know of a lot of people who use an H1 or T1 on their Ultimaks and I have never heard of a heat related problem. Aimpoints can handle it.

 

Co witness is popular on a lot of AR builds due to flip-up sights. They can flip them down and out of the way, something an AK cannot usually do.

[TX-Zen 287]

PS - as I have told you before Zen - your SVD-S S12 is going to be the death of me. I'm not supposed to covet the things my neighbor has - yet I cannot resist.

 

Cmon down to Texas and you can shoot the hell out of it, I whore it out all the time

 

 

 

 

Z

[Horse 39]

I've applied to UTA MBA program - we'll see