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Just a suggestion.... product details


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In the item description of the Russian sidefolding polymer stock kits, it should say what size the pin is. 4.5mm or 5.5mm. My Saiga 12 reciever was fitted to the angle of a Bulgarian 4.5mm folder trunnion. I saw the Russian polymer units at KVar and ordered one thinking it was a 4.5mm because the only 5.5mm stocks I have ever seen are Russian triangle folders (I have one). I sold my Bulgarian 4.5mm stock and trunnion before the KVar unit was shipped. Now I have a Saiga 12 fitted to the wrong angle for the 5.5mm trunnion that I received. The angle is different at the rear of the 5.5mm trunnions. I will have to pay a welder to add metal to the rear of the receiver and rework the angle to make it look right.

 

Also, it might be helpful to let customers know that the KVar Russian sidefolding stock kits are the version that is designed for use on the euro guns that will not fire when the stock is in the folded position, and has the thin necked pin, relieved hinge, and relieved trunnion.

 

Had I known what the KVar stock set was, I wouldn't have been willing sell my Bulgarian 4.5mm stock, pay $255 for the Russian 'no-fire-when-folded' 5.5mm stock (with the weaker pin, trunnion, and hinge), and then pay a welder more money to make it look right when installed. I would have just kept the Bulgarian 4.5mm stock and finished installing it if the Russian stock would had been been described in accurate detail, but it is too late now.

 

Please understand. I'm not here for a refund or to bash anyone. Just here to make a suggestion and I sincerely hope KVar will communicate details of their products in their product descriptions and save someone else the disappointment and extra expense that I am experiencing.

Thank you,

evl....

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I just bought one of these stocks for an SGL 10 conversion. Why can't you fire the gun with the stock folded? Is it a mechanical or physical interference?

 

Yeah... what exactly prevents you from firing when folded? This doesn't make much sense to me. Also, are you guys saying that these are not the same stock and trunnion that are found on the military AK-100s? Thanks.

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I just bought one of these stocks for an SGL 10 conversion. Why can't you fire the gun with the stock folded? Is it a mechanical or physical interference?

 

Yeah... what exactly prevents you from firing when folded? This doesn't make much sense to me. Also, are you guys saying that these are not the same stock and trunnion that are found on the military AK-100s? Thanks.

The stock kit is the 'no fire when folded version', but you have to install the linkage for it to not fire when folded. The point is that these stocks have a much weaker pin and somewhat weaker trunnion and KVar does not disclose the pin size or the fact that they are the weakened version that most people would not knowingly pay $255 for. Unmodified Russian poly folder kits without the weakened parts can be had for around $275 shipped when they pop up. These KVar stock kits are $255 shipped and I would have much rather just kept the Bulgy stock that I had or held out for a non-modified Russian stock kit for $20 more. The below pics are of my unmodified old school real deal 5.5mm folder trunnion and pin, and the KVar 'no fire when folded' version. It isn't hard to tell which one is the unmodified version, just look at the pin and the trunnion.

LOL!!!! Yeah, probably not what the Russian Military is running on their rigs. They are the 'no fire when folded' civilian version. Not at all what I expected.... and the welder charged me $65 to fix my receiver so I could use the 5.5mm pin trunnion. This could have been avoided by KVar stating that the stock kit was a 5.5mm pin unit.

 

post-22401-0-80178800-1291601596_thumb.jpg

post-22401-0-37774700-1291601577_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

Quote from KVar's site.....

 

Buttstock assembly, folding, plastic, with all attaching hardware including rear block. Includes rivets and front latch pieces. This is a genuine original Russian made part. These parts are perfect for those that want to convert their Russian firearms to look like the AK-100 series. This is the newer style currently used by the Russian military. The angle of the buttstock is slightly changed from models in the past. This change allows the buttstock to be in line with the receiver, this will allow a more ergonomic feel and help reduce the intensity of the recoil.

post-22401-0-05376900-1291601615_thumb.jpg

Edited by evlblkwpnz
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Sorry to hear about your trouble, evlblkwpnz.

 

I already own the K-Var kit and plan on paying a professional to install it on my SGL21 some time in the future. If my receiver is yet untouched, this is not going to be a problem to install, right? The only issues for me are going to be the potentially less rugged pin and trunnion, right?

Edited by SpetsnazGRU
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Sorry to hear about your trouble, evlblkwpnz.

 

I already own the K-Var kit and plan on paying a professional to install it on my SGL21 some time in the future. If my receiver is yet untouched, this is not going to be a problem to install, right? The only issues for me are going to be the potentially less rugged pin and trunnion, right?

 

Everything should be fine. The main issue for me is that I could have just kept my eyes peeled and waited for the better version for about $20 more.

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Solid week with no official response, not cool...

I agree. However, this has not been my experience with KVar in the past. Their lack of product details has been the source of much disappointment for me lately.

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What's the point of the necked down pin? What purpose does weakening the pin achieve? I don't know why would anyone go through the trouble if making a "civilian " folding stock? I mean for airsoft use, ok make it cheaper and lighter, and even cheaper. But these are real weapons firing real rounds. Machining the pin and trunion to make it weaker is a real dumb waste if time!!!

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Russian pins are allways 5.5 right? Bulgy pins are 4.5.

The only other Russian Polymer stocks that I have seen have the 4.5mm pin. The Russian triangle folders were the only stocks that had the 5.5mm pin. Apparently, these KVar units are of extremely late manufacture and all of them are 5.5mm. It would have been nice to know this before selling my Bulgy stock and trunnion.

 

.... Still no word from KVar on the product details issue.

 

 

What's the point of the necked down pin? What purpose does weakening the pin achieve? I don't know why would anyone go through the trouble if making a "civilian " folding stock? I mean for airsoft use, ok make it cheaper and lighter, and even cheaper. But these are real weapons firing real rounds. Machining the pin and trunion to make it weaker is a real dumb waste if time!!!

There is a 'linkage' on the 'no fire when folded' euro version weapons that goes between the trunnion and receiver, and by the pin. Both the pin and trunnion need to be clearanced/necked for the linkage to fit and work as intended.

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There is a 'linkage' on the 'no fire when folded' euro version weapons that goes between the trunnion and receiver, and by the pin. Both the pin and trunnion need to be clearanced/necked for the linkage to fit and work as intended.

Thanks for the explanation. The clearances were done for an interference part that has not been included with the K-Var parts. Theoretically, if you use a none necked down 5.5mm pin (if you can even find one) you have not lost too much strength in this set-up. I bet the guys at K-Var had no idea about this feature of the stocks when they bought them. Other than having one fabricated, is there anywhere we can get the regular 5.5mm pins for these stocks?

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Russian pins are allways 5.5 right? Bulgy pins are 4.5.

The only other Russian Polymer stocks that I have seen have the 4.5mm pin. The Russian triangle folders were the only stocks that had the 5.5mm pin. Apparently, these KVar units are of extremely late manufacture and all of them are 5.5mm. It would have been nice to know this before selling my Bulgy stock and trunnion.

 

.... Still no word from KVar on the product details issue.

 

 

 

It was my understanding that Bulgarians used the 4.5 and that the russians allways have used 5.5. Might be wrong here, however I think it cant hurt anyone to have extra info on the vendors storefront.

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There is a 'linkage' on the 'no fire when folded' euro version weapons that goes between the trunnion and receiver, and by the pin. Both the pin and trunnion need to be clearanced/necked for the linkage to fit and work as intended.

Thanks for the explanation. The clearances were done for an interference part that has not been included with the K-Var parts. Theoretically, if you use a none necked down 5.5mm pin (if you can even find one) you have not lost too much strength in this set-up. I bet the guys at K-Var had no idea about this feature of the stocks when they bought them. Other than having one fabricated, is there anywhere we can get the regular 5.5mm pins for these stocks?

 

I have an unmolested 5.5mm pin.... that came with a $375 ultra-early Russian triangle folder kit.

 

They (KVar) usually are pretty good about giving accurate and detailed info about their products. This situation was very strange to me.

 

For instance, you are looking for a decent cheap car. I say "I have a decent cheap car I'll sell you for $500". You buy it and then realize that it is a complete POS. Is it my fault for not telling you that it did not run, or is it your fault for not asking if it ran. It looks decent, and $500 is cheap. It is about integrity and honesty. It really upsets me that KVar has not even commented on this and they have not added any info to the product description on their site.

 

I own 2 businesses and I give all details no matter what. Sometimes I may loose a $100k+ project over honesty.... but I walk away a man of honesty and integrity. I know, I know, these are lost and forgotten concepts, but I still practice them.

Edited by evlblkwpnz
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I have an unmolested 5.5mm pin.... that came with a $375 ultra-early Russian triangle folder kit.

 

They (KVar) usually are pretty good about giving accurate and detailed info about their products. This situation was very strange to me.

 

For instance, you are looking for a decent cheap car. I say "I have a decent cheap car I'll sell you for $500". You buy it and then realize that it is a complete POS. Is it my fault for not telling you that it did not run, or is it your fault for not asking if it ran. It looks decent, and $500 is cheap. It is about integrity and honesty. It really upsets me that KVar has not even commented on this and they have not added any info to the product description on their site.

 

I own 2 businesses and I give all details no matter what. Sometimes I may loose a $100k+ project over honesty.... but I walk away a man of honesty and integrity. I know, I know, these are lost and forgotten concepts, but I still practice them.

I used to work in the Restaurant industry, and its always better to have a happy customer than a pissed off one. I think they were not trying to mislead anyone evlblkwpnz, but rather they assumed people would know it came with a 5.5 pin. I think you can probably send it back if you want to do an exchange. Have you tried calling them, they are really much better at answering their phones then they are responding to forum posts.

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I have an unmolested 5.5mm pin.... that came with a $375 ultra-early Russian triangle folder kit.

 

They (KVar) usually are pretty good about giving accurate and detailed info about their products. This situation was very strange to me.

 

For instance, you are looking for a decent cheap car. I say "I have a decent cheap car I'll sell you for $500". You buy it and then realize that it is a complete POS. Is it my fault for not telling you that it did not run, or is it your fault for not asking if it ran. It looks decent, and $500 is cheap. It is about integrity and honesty. It really upsets me that KVar has not even commented on this and they have not added any info to the product description on their site.

 

I own 2 businesses and I give all details no matter what. Sometimes I may loose a $100k+ project over honesty.... but I walk away a man of honesty and integrity. I know, I know, these are lost and forgotten concepts, but I still practice them.

I used to work in the Restaurant industry, and its always better to have a happy customer than a pissed off one. I think they were not trying to mislead anyone evlblkwpnz, but rather they assumed people would know it came with a 5.5 pin. I think you can probably send it back if you want to do an exchange. Have you tried calling them, they are really much better at answering their phones then they are responding to forum posts.

 

I would have tried to send it back had I not already sold and shipped my 4.5mm Bulgy triangle stock. I have already paid a welder $65 to add material to the rear of the receiver and it has been fitted to this KVar stock, so I am far beyond being able to send it back now. I will install it and hope to be satisfied with the end result. This whole thing has been a cluster $%^& that could have been avoided with a little info in the description. Apparently KVar couldn't care less and I will not be buying from them in the future without getting any and all details about the item. I may not buy from them at all. I just don't know what to think about the whole thing at this time. I do know that I am not happy about the whole thing. I may call and shake the bush to see what comes out.

 

BTW On top of this stock fiasco, I ordered 2 Bulgarian trigger guards from them a few months ago and they are so brittle that one whole side of the mag catch area broke off on one of them. It was bent (both guards were actually) and I tried to bend it out a bit to correct it and the thing broke off clean at the bend. I am wondering if many of the parts that make it to America are the rejects from the factory. Such as batches that were not properly hardened. I have reworked and bent trigger guards (Russian and Chinese) and never had one do this. Right when I started to apply outward pressure, the side of the mag catch area just popped off and flew across the room. The break looked really grainy like JB Weld. I had a funny feeling that I should order two of them.... These experiences are shaking my confidence in KVar and their products.

Edited by evlblkwpnz
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I have an unmolested 5.5mm pin.... that came with a $375 ultra-early Russian triangle folder kit.

 

They (KVar) usually are pretty good about giving accurate and detailed info about their products. This situation was very strange to me.

 

For instance, you are looking for a decent cheap car. I say "I have a decent cheap car I'll sell you for $500". You buy it and then realize that it is a complete POS. Is it my fault for not telling you that it did not run, or is it your fault for not asking if it ran. It looks decent, and $500 is cheap. It is about integrity and honesty. It really upsets me that KVar has not even commented on this and they have not added any info to the product description on their site.

 

I own 2 businesses and I give all details no matter what. Sometimes I may loose a $100k+ project over honesty.... but I walk away a man of honesty and integrity. I know, I know, these are lost and forgotten concepts, but I still practice them.

I used to work in the Restaurant industry, and its always better to have a happy customer than a pissed off one. I think they were not trying to mislead anyone evlblkwpnz, but rather they assumed people would know it came with a 5.5 pin. I think you can probably send it back if you want to do an exchange. Have you tried calling them, they are really much better at answering their phones then they are responding to forum posts.

 

I would have tried to send it back had I not already sold and shipped my 4.5mm Bulgy triangle stock. I have alreay paid a welder $65 to add material to the rear of the receiver and it has been fitted to this KVar stock, so I am far beyond being able to send it back now. I will install it and hope to be satisfied with the end result. This whole thing has been a cluter $%^& that could have been avoided with a little info in the description. Apparently KVar couldn't care less and I will not be buying from them in the future without getting any and all details about the item. I may not buy from them at all. I just don't know what to think about the whole thing at this time. I do know that I am not happy about the whole thing. I may call and shake the bush to see what comes out.

 

BTW On top of this stock fiasco, I ordered 2 Bulgarian trigger guards from them a few months ago and they are so brittle that one whole side of the mag catch area broke off on one of them. It was bent (both guards were actually) and I tried to bend it out a bit to correct it and the thing broke off clean at the bend. I am wondering if many of the parts that make it to America are the rejects from the factory. Such as batches that were not properly hardened. I have reworked and bent trigger guards (Russian and Chinese) and never had one do this. Right when I started to apply outward pressure, the side of the mag catch just popped off and flew across the room. The break looked really grainy like JB Weld. I had a funny feeling that I should order two of them.... These experiences are shaking my confidence in KVar and their products.

 

I would not throw the baby out with the bath water bro. Occasionally products are defective. K-Var is a great company bring the US some unique products. :super:

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The only other Russian Polymer stocks that I have seen have the 4.5mm pin. The Russian triangle folders were the only stocks that had the 5.5mm pin. Apparently, these K-Var units are of extremely late manufacture and all of them are 5.5mm. It would have been nice to know this before selling my Bulgy stock and trunnion.

 

 

Respectfully, this isn't correct

 

The Russians used the 4.5mm hinge until they switched to the 5.5mm hinge on the AK74M sometime around 1992. The Bulgarians continued to use the 4.5mm. When the Russians switched to 5.5 they dropped the triangle folder also, that means technically triangles were never 5.5mm in service. Recently I asked over on theakforum about exactly this and if its true, then why do 5.5mm triangle exist...if the Russians switched to the poly when they changed the pin size there shouldn't be any 5.5 triangles.. but you can definintely buy them. I have two so they aren't even that rare.

 

The answer was that the 5.5 triangle was not a mass produced miltary service item, it was apparently for export contracts and not intended for Russian military use. Basically the Russians don't use it in any kind of numbers, they did appear to stick only to 5.5mm poly stocks.

 

 

Personally I have never seen a Russian 4.5mm polymer stock, probably for the same reason there were no 5.5mm triangle stocks...when they dropped the 4.5mm hinge they didn't make 4.5mm poly stocks either. My understanding is the 4.5mm poly is a Bulgarian design only...when the Russians beefed up to 5.5mm they didn't appear to retrofit the poly to the older rifles still in service.

 

 

Quote from KVar's site.....

 

Buttstock assembly, folding, plastic, with all attaching hardware including rear block. Includes rivets and front latch pieces. This is a genuine original Russian made part. These parts are perfect for those that want to convert their Russian firearms to look like the AK-100 series. This is the newer style currently used by the Russian military. The angle of the buttstock is slightly changed from models in the past. This change allows the buttstock to be in line with the receiver, this will allow a more ergonomic feel and help reduce the intensity of the recoil.

 

 

 

K-Var should have clarified the difference between the 4.5mm and 5.5mm hardware because that should instantly remove any confusion about compatibility, but honestly if you are familiar with AK74M/AK100 series you know pretty quick what the difference's are between the old and new hardware. K-Var's description is accurate enough IMO, because they do say newer style and AK100.

 

As for the 'weakened' pins and trunnions, hate to say it but that appears to be the name of the game with these parts, at least in the past few year from what I have seen. Even Oleg at FSU sells exactly these...I have 5 or 6 different sets I've purchased from several overseas sources in the past 4 years and only two have been the non cutout 'fullup' type. The SVDS folders I've collected have these trunnion cutouts on the stock itself too, I'm beginning to think that either Izzy has changed the production on purpose for whatever reason, or all we can get over here are 'civilian' models.

 

I can understand not being happy about K-Var but I just don't see it the same way you do Evl, to me it looks like K-Var is doing pretty much what everyone else is doing which is selling Russian hardware as Russian hardware. I doubt they even know the difference in the cutout vs non cutout, I believe they are selling whatever they bought and thats that.

 

I guess I'm also respectfully saying a little more research would have probably saved you a lot of trouble and I can't point the finger at K-Var directly. They aren't high on my love list for many reasons (in fact I only deal with them because of the SGL31's) but honestly it doesn't seem to me like this is really their problem.

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TX,

I understand your position on the matter. However, the whole point of this thread was to merely suggest that they include more product details to avoid confusion and potential extra expense, on their part and their customer's part. How many people out there know as much about the AK100 series stocks as you do? Not many.You own more of them than anyone else that I am aware of. I have been an AK owner and fan since the early '90s and never knew that the AK100 series were available without having to buy a rifle with the stock on it (SLR series, etc.). I greatly appreciate your knowledge and input on the matter, but in a nutshell, all I really wanted from KVar was a reply and some degree of action in the product listing afterwards.

evl....

Edited by evlblkwpnz
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Cool, I have a lot of respect for you and hope I didn't sound like I was trying to bust your balls. I just wanted to clarify the 5.5mm triangle statement and offer some of my experience with these stocks.

 

I agree K-Var could probably have avoided any misconceptions by simply stating the difference in pin size and trunnion angle, I think most people would realize maybe they needed to get more information if the description was more detailed. To support your position it would be nice if they also said "5.5mm hardware is not compatible with 4.5mm hardware and vice versa. Remember, Bulgarian and older Russian/Soviet is 4.5mm and modern Russian is 5.5mm, these are modern Russian", it really is as simple as that and thats probably all they need to say.

 

 

 

 

Z

Edited by TX-Zen
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Cool, I have a lot of respect for you and hope I didn't sound like I was trying to bust your balls. I just wanted to clarify the 5.5mm triangle statement and offer some of my experience with these stocks.

 

I agree K-Var could probably have avoided any misconceptions by simply stating the difference in pin size and trunnion angle, I think most people would realize maybe they needed to get more information if the description was more detailed. To support your position it would be nice if they also said "5.5mm hardware is not compatible with 4.5mm hardware and vice versa. Remember, Bulgarian and older Russian/Soviet is 4.5mm and modern Russian is 5.5mm, these are modern Russian", it really is as simple as that and thats probably all they need to say.

 

 

 

 

Z

 

TX,

I didn't take it as 'ball busting', lol. Yeah, I was thinking something like, "Russian 5.5mm pin sidefolding stock, current euro-spec civilian version". Something like that would be helpful. If they would have just stated that it had a 5.5mm pin, I would have not wasted my time or money. I already had a 5.5mm Russian triangle folder that I could have used if I wanted a 5.5mm. This KVar stock has ended up costing nearly what the old school triangle unit did anyway. All of this has me wanting to just sell this weapon after I get it back together and test fire to ensure that the new owner will get a reliable weapon. When I get irritated, I like to 'clean' the slate and get the reminder of the events/expense away from and behind me. I intended to SBS this weapon, but I am annoyed with the whole experience and I will never be happy with it no matter how nice it turns out. I get bored with things fairly quickly as well. I may start over with a new S12 and install my old school triangle folder with the unmodified pin/trunnion. No offense taken whatsoever.

evl....

Edited by evlblkwpnz
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Guys,

Is it just me.... or does it appear that KVar truly does not care about this issue? They went through the expense of becoming business members here, yet they either do not check in here often or blantantly do not care. Since they won't chime in on the subject, why don't we all take a good guess on what they think.

 

ETA: My guess is they want to keep charging $239 for a stock that many may pass on if they knew what it was (either can't use it with their weapon due to fitment issues or because of it being a civilian version). We may never know....

Edited by evlblkwpnz
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