Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I'm a long time lurker, new poster. I've noticed a strange trend both here (and in many forums) for people to be anti-bullpup. As a combat vet and particularly when I was a security contractor I found the bullpup configurations to work so much better.

 

Now I did do a lot of work in buildings and vehicles, and also tended towards heavy armor, so maybe it skewed my viewpoint a bit, but I find the arguments about balance to be strange. The folks who say a folding stock is better must have had a very different set of circumstances than I encountered, generally I found that if the stock was folded when an incident occured the weapon had to be used with it folded, less than optimal. In general in the situations I encountered the bullpup was so vastly superior it just seems strange for me to see so many people saying that they would never own one and can't see why people would.

 

I don't mean to put down people's choice, I'm honestly asking to understand other folk's perspective on this.

 

I did work with pretty mixed groups and most foreign armies now carry bullpups, so the folks I met tended to choose a bullpup whenever one was available. So is this a case of the american preferance for conventional layouts? asthetics? Rampant mall ninjas?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I've wondered the same thing, although I don't have the experience and background you do...I try to match my weapon to the circumstances, and wouldn't be using a bullpup for shooting clay pigeons, or for long range slug work. There are guns better suited to those kinds of pursuits. On the other hand, for close in action, for home defense (which in many cases is close in action), and for greater concealability, I can't see where a bullpup would be a detriment.

 

As to aftermarket kits and so forth, the whole idea of taking an existing platform, be it AK, AR, whatever, is to start with a suitable candidate that embodies what you want in an operation system, and to make it into what it is you need and want. I have a Kel-Tec SU16c that came with a folding stock that makes it much easier to conceal, and to shoot from it's folded position. And yet I opted to add a typical telescoping stock to give it that military look and better personal fitment to my shooting style (I like a mighty short length of pull on my long guns, and I could see how the bullpup would allow that very readily). However, I keep the folding stock close at hand, for just in case. The telescoping stock I've added is sold by Kel-Tec, the manufacturer, and fact of the matter is, the whole thing is an obvious afterthought, and uses methods of attachment that actually detract from the looks of the gun. Yet, it does have a place in my gun philosophy.

 

And while the AK platform is intended, was intended, for basic infantry use in war, there are those who add scopes, and a whole host of other accessories. I see the AK bullpup as just another iteration of what starts out as a superb gun, and just gets better with its expanded capabilities and uses. That's just me though, and I don't amount to much.

 

PJJ

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've found most bullpups feel awkward, the only exception I've found so far is the Steyer AUG. I really don't like the feel of the FN FS200. I think at least for me most bullpups are just too short and I feel like I'm trying to squeeze myself in around the rifle. If some one came out with a bullpup that was very thin but and had a way to adjust your hand placement I'd consider it. Other issue with bullpups is they don't lend themselves to the use of drums(not really a big issue but inconvenient).

 

Bullpups can be good in theory I just haven't found one yet that I is really comfortable to hold.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The truth is that many people are so biased that they just attack anything that they do not own or understand. We had one of our more outspoken idiots here in the last two weeks claiming that no foreign army used them. Some of these folks get a wide berth here and spend a lot of their time posting drivel. The problem is that those that are even less knowledgeable will simply accept that VOLUME and the agreement of other yo-yos equals knowledge.

 

Regarding "fly by night aftermarket conversion kits" some conversions are quite well built and designed. The KVAR, which you will see denigrated here, was designed by an ex-Soviet Army arms engineer. I had a long conversation with him about the kit many years ago at the SOF show and he was quite an interesting fellow! The trigger pull takes some care and ability to set up and frankly I would have mounted a larger diameter transfer bar outside the stock in a protected tube, but as he and I discussed that would have distracted from the "all-important" consumer aesthetics in this case.

 

I like the Bullpup and have several, I also like conventional rifles and have many. As Preparehandbook, has said, there are some uses for the Bullpup where it is simply king, one of which is working out of cars. There is a different manual of arms for the Bullpup, if you take the time to learn it, you will do a lot better with one.

 

Before you waste everyone's time with the "trigger pull is terrible whaaaaa!" complaint, perhaps you really have no interest in military style firearms, which as a group have characteristically poor trigger pulls compared to most better sporting rifles. While the trigger pull on a bullpup can be made quite acceptable, that of a conventional rifle is usually superior.

 

Frankly, if you don't like them, I see no reason for you to buy one. There are a variety of legitimate reasons why honestly the bullpup may be a poor design for you. But for those that do, it would be nice to be able to have a thread about them without it being sullied with some of the ignorant drivel that gets posted here as a substitute for knowledge. :)

Edited by Azrial
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a long time lurker, new poster. I've noticed a strange trend both here (and in many forums) for people to be anti-bullpup. As a combat vet and particularly when I was a security contractor I found the bullpup configurations to work so much better.

 

Now I did do a lot of work in buildings and vehicles, and also tended towards heavy armor, so maybe it skewed my viewpoint a bit, but I find the arguments about balance to be strange. The folks who say a folding stock is better must have had a very different set of circumstances than I encountered, generally I found that if the stock was folded when an incident occured the weapon had to be used with it folded, less than optimal. In general in the situations I encountered the bullpup was so vastly superior it just seems strange for me to see so many people saying that they would never own one and can't see why people would.

 

I don't mean to put down people's choice, I'm honestly asking to understand other folk's perspective on this.

 

I did work with pretty mixed groups and most foreign armies now carry bullpups, so the folks I met tended to choose a bullpup whenever one was available. So is this a case of the american preferance for conventional layouts? asthetics? Rampant mall ninjas?

 

 

Some bullpups work for me, some don't. I like the FS-2000 and the P90. I haven't found an AK bullpup that was comfortable for me, yet. One of the things you said didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I've always understood that folding stocks are meant for storage. Whenever I've carried a weapon with a folding stock, the stock has been in its ready position. When I'm camping or hiking in areas with mountain lions (in rural Nebraska - they're around, not extremely common) I carry my 8" S-12 on a single-point sling - with the stock extended.

 

I like some bullpups. In general I've found weapons that were designed from the ground up in that configuration to be much more useful than weapons that have been converted. I've thought about getting a bullpup stock for my Ruger 10/22 down the road, if I get around to sending in a form 1. A Ruger 10/22 Bullpup SBR could be a fun little plinker, especially with a can.

 

Some people don't like bullpups in general, for various reasons. Some just don't like new things. Some don't like the aesthetics. Some don't care for the handling characteristics. At the last gun show I went to I was treated to a five-minute rant by an extremely racist old vet, who, between reminders of how much he hated japs and gooks, explained that changing out magazines took longer "having to reach all the way back there," and you don't want to "take any extra goddamn time when there's bullets whizzing over your head".

 

In fairness, just like changing mags on a Thompson is a bit of a chore until you've done it a few times, changing magazines on a P90 is time-consuming at first, and stays pretty awkward unless you spend a whole lot of time at it. Some people don't like to adapt and take the time to give their muscle memory something new to learn.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I am only really against Ak bullpups. If I wanted a short AK or saiga 12 I would get an SBR SBS. That said I just bought a bull pup specific magazine and have decided I really want an Aug or Msar STG556.

I have an STG-556. Absolutely amazing rifle, VERY accurate, and a whole lot of fun. It has the typical crappy trigger most bullpups have, but there are some aftermarket items available to resolve this. Personally, it doesn't bother me.

 

MSAR also has a great customer service dept. I had to send my bolt back due to a minor issue. A new bolt was returned in less than two weeks, along with a free side rail, and several free magazines. I can not recommend MSAR more.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I was about to buy one at a pawn shop 3 months back it was $800 I dont like used guns and couldnt find warrantee information yet I couldnt shell out 1100-1400 for a new one. It ended up selling shortly. Im waiting to see if prices back down after they set up there new shop in the Carolinas I beleive. Ive heard decent things except from those bullpup haters.

 

Beside crappy triggers they are also expensive. Its like mac over pc it does the same thing as good if not better you just have to figure out how to use it right and make that transition from the norm.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Please don't confuse "anti-bullpup" sentiment with "anti-shitty AK/SKS/Mosin Bullpup Conversion Kits" sentiment.

 

As stated above, rifles like the FS2000, P90, AUG, etc. are all capable designs because they were intended to be bullpups and were designed as such.

 

Kits like the CBRPS "giant metal waste of space taco" stocks are mall-ninja garbage and ones like the Kushnapup are just vaporware.

Edited by Classy Kalashnikov
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

There are 3 bullpup camps:

 

1. People who love them, see nearly any post by Bubba Debt.

2. People who hate them, generally for no particular reason or the general (mostly incorrect) thought that the trigger pull is crappy.

3. People who don't really care, me for example.

 

Yup, it is gun, I ordered the Shernic Gun Works SKS kit, we'll see if I move into camp #1.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not just 'anti-bullpup', but save for a few exceptions, the forum's formula for responding to much of anything on here is 'convert and buy from XXX, anything else is a waste of time'... post some funny pictures of celebrities 'facepalming' and refer back to earlier threads from 4 years ago that consist of more 'facepalming'.

 

I respect and appreciate the forum members that have been around forever and their collective knowledge, I do... but truth be told there's not much patience for entertaining anything that doesn't fit the current mold.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I read your other post on the center balance systems bullpup kit. It does look to be unique and possibly a shortcut for people who do not want to convert. I guess we'll have to wait until a brave soul decides to put on on his/her saiga 12 and test one out. Correct me if I'm wrong but when I watched the installation vid on their site It looked like most of the chassis is retained by one screw going into the trunion (I think the same spot where the oem HGs screw into) kinda makes me a little nervous. Who knows if that will hold up to 12ga recoil. That being said I'm no expert on these things and would love to test one out but seeing as it gots a pistol grip I'll have to pass (I <3 NY).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Call it petty if you want but I don't own a glock and thats most likely due to the way it looks in fact it is that very reason I'ver never even picked one up. Same with the bull pup design they just don't look comfortable and they're kinda ugly. I'll probably never pick up either for fear that they might feel right or shoot well, then I'd just have to buy another firearm.:lolol:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Call it petty if you want but I don't own a glock and thats most likely due to the way it looks in fact it is that very reason I'ver never even picked one up. Same with the bull pup design they just don't look comfortable and they're kinda ugly. I'll probably never pick up either for fear that they might feel right or shoot well, then I'd just have to buy another firearm.:lolol:

 

I totally agree with the "how it looks" idea. I tried doing the glock thing, it seemed good spec-wise, but it just never felt right, so I went back to the 1911. To me the 1911 just "feels right".

 

It's funny, but when hunting I prefer a conventional layout.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I read your other post on the center balance systems bullpup kit. It does look to be unique and possibly a shortcut for people who do not want to convert. I guess we'll have to wait until a brave soul decides to put on on his/her saiga 12 and test one out. Correct me if I'm wrong but when I watched the installation vid on their site It looked like most of the chassis is retained by one screw going into the trunion (I think the same spot where the oem HGs screw into) kinda makes me a little nervous. Who knows if that will hold up to 12ga recoil. That being said I'm no expert on these things and would love to test one out but seeing as it gots a pistol grip I'll have to pass (I <3 NY).

 

I think I'm gonna go with the center balance system's "spike" but I'm only going to buy the rear stub stock and middle section. I just don't need the whole front end part or the handle. If I decide I need a shroud I'll make one, but basically I like my guns stripped down pretty bare. I like the Kvar, but it seems a little flimsier and it's trigger linkage seems a little iffy to me.

Products%7E%7Eelement484.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

I love my S12 KVAR bullpup. So much so that I'm working on another Bullpup stock for it. Something more to my likeing and more customizeble in general.

 

Recoil is nothing with a slip on buttpad and trigger pull as good as original.

 

As for anti-bullpup. Well they're right about "It's best if made to be one." but not all of us can afford those. So we go for a great gun and do what we can with it. Works for me, your milage may vary.

post-15573-0-73983000-1291426657_thumb.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

My issue rifle in the ADF was an Austeyr bullpup, once the SLRs were retired. It is one of the finest 5.56 battle rifles in the world and I'd happily take it into any warzone. But for what is essentially a "fungun" for shooting at the range I love full-length wood-stocked battle rifles. My safe is home to stuff like black powder pistols, K98s, SMLEs, G3s, AKs, etc.

 

I may get a plastic bullpup assault rifle some day, but I'm sure it won't be as fun as my AK-styled Saiga 12.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm in JPanzer's camp. Or, at least, part in his camp and part in my own.

 

I'm actually very PRO bullpup. I think the future of firearms is in the bp concept.

 

The problem is that there are very few weapons that do it well, especially in terms of casing ejection. While a righty, I firmly believe in ambi-shooting, and a weapon that will melt or slice my face off if I transition to my off-side doesn't fly.

 

Nor does the half-assed style of the FS2000. An open ejection...tube...with no way to clear muck out? Really? Craziness.

 

P90s, on the other hand...

 

And, of course, there is a distinction between weapons and sport guns. For fun play with whatever the hell won't blow up in your hands. ;) But, as I view Saiga as weapons, I'm still waiting on a good bp design.

 

Maybe if you mounted it on it's side so that it feeds like an old Sten and the casings shot straight down...heheheh.

Link to post
Share on other sites

...The problem is that there are very few weapons that do it well, especially in terms of casing ejection. While a righty, I firmly believe in ambi-shooting, and a weapon that will melt or slice my face off if I transition to my off-side doesn't fly.

 

Nor does the half-assed style of the FS2000. An open ejection...tube...with no way to clear muck out? Really? Craziness.

 

P90s, on the other hand... ...

Again, take the time to learn the correct manual of arms for the Bullpup. For building work I advocate firing the Bullpup from the center of the chest with an optical sight that supports this. This is a easy and fast way to work doors and corners! I do not teach shoulder transitions like on a conventional rifle.

 

... and now you know and knowing is half the battle! GI Joe!

Edited by Azrial
Link to post
Share on other sites

I have used all different weapon systems, I dont like bullpups for two reasons.

 

1 the action is at the rear of the stock which sucks if your left handed, or if you have to shoot left handed. IE get shot in your right arm.

 

2 they are slower to reload, most use a paddle type/AK style release which sucks. You cant draw another mag while you drop the empty in the gun.

 

 

 

They do have the benifit of a longer barrel in a shorter package but with a shotgun you dont need a longer barrel. If you live in a NFA friendly state you can run a 11.5in barrel and only lose 100FPS.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have used all different weapon systems, I dont like bullpups for two reasons.

 

1 the action is at the rear of the stock which sucks if your left handed, or if you have to shoot left handed. IE get shot in your right arm.

Really, what does the location of the receiver have to to with which of your hands is dominate? Perhaps you are trying to say ejection port, which is a whole different and valid problem when refitting some designs... Since I am not left handed, and do not plan to convert, this is not a concern. I guess that most bolt action rifles are also trash, since left handed folks have trouble with them? You must have a freakishly odd body configuration to be able to shoot yourself in your own right arm. :unsure:

 

2 they are slower to reload, most use a paddle type/AK style release which sucks. You cant draw another mag while you drop the empty in the gun.

As I have said, take the time to learn the manual of arms for a bullpup before you start telling everyone they do not work. They are reloaded more like a pistol then a rifle.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This data is pretty revealing:

 

shotgunlengthfpschart.jpg

 

Very little muzzle velocity is lost by going with a shorter barrel on a shotgun. As for how quickly shot spreads; that's a different story. If you want to hunt birds, go with longer barrels. For two-legged threat elimination, (almost always shorter ranges), shorter barrels provide a significant maneuverability advantage.

 

My S-12 has a ~13" factory barrel, and I can still bust clays just fine with it.

 

ymmv.

Edited by post-apocalyptic
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Chatbox

    Load More
    You don't have permission to chat.
×
×
  • Create New...