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Lets be real about this; How essential are AK irons?


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I asked this because I never use my irons when I go to the range.

 

Most everyone are always asking which optic I should get or this is the optic I use....... This only leads me to believe that hardly anyone use their irons in any essential way. In other words, REALLY DEPEND ON IT!

 

My Saiga .308 - If I am going to be shooting out from 100yds to even 300yds I'm definitely using an optic at about maybe 8x - 10x. Sorry I don't have eagle eyes.

 

My Saiga .223 - I'm always using my scope at 4x when shooting at 100yds. I don't see how anyone can get any decent groups using irons especially AK style irons.

 

Okay that being said, I still leave myself open to using irons as a backup but thats in a worse case scenario where I would use that as a last resort. So how good would that be? At 50yds? At 100yds?

 

Currently my .308 has no irons because I deleted the FSB when I mounted the muzzle brake. I thought about using the Ace clamp-on sight on the gas block but some have said that it makes for a very short sight radius. Of course I can increase that sight radius by using a TWS rail with rear peep or Krebs rail but how important is that extra sight radius for irons that I'll hardly ever use to justify the added cost to have that sight radius? If I ever have to use irons as a last ditch effort, would that extra bit of sight radius really mean any real effectiveness?

 

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

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I like iron sights. In fact, I think I only own one rifle without iron sights, a CZ-452 American that I only use for target shooting. That being said, I hate open, barrel-mounted iron sights and have replaced them with receiver-mounted aperture sights on several of my rifles, including my .308 Saiga. The Saiga's iron sights (Tech Sights TS200) were used exclusively until I decided to stick a scope on for ammo testing.

 

Even if the standard AK iron sights couldn't be replaced, I still think I'd keep them on. They don't run out of batteries and are probably more robust than most glass. I'm not big on the whole OMFGSHTF-scene, but it's always nice to have a backup plan. If it's a dedicated range gun, then no, they're not essential.

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If it can break, it will break.

Always nice to have a backup.

 

Taliban in flip-flops & night-shirts using .39s with iron sights are "outgunning" US troops with ACOGs on ARs, simply due to a more effective bullet.

Irons will always be there & at zero.

I won't own a gun without them other than a bolt action medium range (800yd) hunting gun.

Edited by Paulyski
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Honestly, I prefer irons on all of my rifles to optics. But I'm usually shooting at no more than 100yds. I can't speak for increased sight radius, but using a smaller diameter front sight post really helps tighten up your groups with irons.

 

True, but I have found that the smaller post is more difficult to see and to re-acquire quickly in some conditions. The standard fat post is better for hitting reasonably close man size targets in a fluid and stressful environment. I think we spend too much time worrying about group size.

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I asked this because I never use my irons when I go to the range.

 

Most everyone are always asking which optic I should get or this is the optic I use....... This only leads me to believe that hardly anyone use their irons in any essential way. In other words, REALLY DEPEND ON IT!

 

I'm one of those guys that talk about optics a lot. I'm a big believer in the value of a first rate optic like the Aimpoint Micro. 0-300 yards, I will always look for the red dot first. However, I spend much more time practicing with the irons than I do the red dot. Why? Because using the irons well is a skill that must be developed with a lot of work. In contrast, the red dot is so intuitive that it needs very little work. As an example, my wife shoots with me every three months or so. She's does poorly with the irons (something I'm working on, but it's hard given the rarity of her coming to the range), but absolutely tears up the human silhouette in the kill zone with the Aimpoint. So if you want to be able to effectively use the irons in an ugly situation, you will need to actually train with them.

 

 

My Saiga .308 - If I am going to be shooting out from 100yds to even 300yds I'm definitely using an optic at about maybe 8x - 10x. Sorry I don't have eagle eyes.

 

My Saiga .223 - I'm always using my scope at 4x when shooting at 100yds. I don't see how anyone can get any decent groups using irons especially AK style irons.

Unless shooting for recreational purposes only, such as for competition or for just the challenge of developing a high degree of precise marksmanship, then I believe a fixation on group size is misguided. If you ever have to fight bad guys with your AK, will you be looking for groups or for quick hits? I try to train for what I see as reasonably likely situations. That means hitting human size silhouette targets with rapidity, mostly at close ranges but also including less likely distances. The irons are sufficient for this out to 300 yards, further in very skilled hands. Obviously, the precision work with the optics can still be practiced in addition to these things, but hits are what count, and the irons can deliver that, if you are able to do your part.

 

Jim

Edited by Jim Digriz
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Sorry I don't have eagle eyes.

 

Which may explain why you don't get good groups with irons. You don't need to "see" your target, you only need to see your front sight post. Specifically, I focus on the middle of the front sight post, as if there was a hairline right smack dead center of it. I concentrate on this and more or less get it centered on a blurry background that is my target.

 

Shooters that have had problems getting good groups with irons usually take their concentration away from the front sight post and look downrange at the target at some point before the shot releases. A lot were doing it without even knowing it. One way to test this is to try and remember what the exact image was during the muzzle flash. If the tip of the front sight post wasn't the last thing you remember seeing clearly, chances are that you took your concentration off it. Another method is to look at your groups. If they are all around the center, you were looking at the target. If they are strung out vertically, you have a breathing issue.

 

Next time you are out with your scope, try to focus specifically on the reticle, meaning your target should be a little blurry. See if that tightens up your scope groups. If it does, I bet you can shoot just fine with irons, regardless of the distance.

 

Anyway irons are an essential piece of gear on the weapon in my opinion.

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  • 1 month later...

Sorry I don't have eagle eyes.

 

Which may explain why you don't get good groups with irons. You don't need to "see" your target, you only need to see your front sight post. Specifically, I focus on the middle of the front sight post, as if there was a hairline right smack dead center of it. I concentrate on this and more or less get it centered on a blurry background that is my target.

 

Shooters that have had problems getting good groups with irons usually take their concentration away from the front sight post and look downrange at the target at some point before the shot releases. A lot were doing it without even knowing it. One way to test this is to try and remember what the exact image was during the muzzle flash. If the tip of the front sight post wasn't the last thing you remember seeing clearly, chances are that you took your concentration off it. Another method is to look at your groups. If they are all around the center, you were looking at the target. If they are strung out vertically, you have a breathing issue.

 

Next time you are out with your scope, try to focus specifically on the reticle, meaning your target should be a little blurry. See if that tightens up your scope groups. If it does, I bet you can shoot just fine with irons, regardless of the distance.

 

Anyway irons are an essential piece of gear on the weapon in my opinion.

 

 

I'm glad to see someone mention that about irons. I always felt like my eyes were an issue and that others probably had enough depth of field in their vision to have a sharp view of the post and target at the same time. I'm usually trying to shoot at the center of a blur myself even around 75 to 100 yards. I see pretty clearly at 50 or less, which is what I normally work at. I shoot 40 to 50 yds offhand and kneeling pretty much every time I shoot. I don't do nearly enough work at longer distances, but I've been trying to integrate some more longer distance stuff lately though.

 

I shoot in an old dried up pond that's about 50 yds across, so I have to move to another location close by to do longer range work. Lately, my favorite thing to do is scatter a shit ton of clays along the bank opposite of me and just try to bust them as quickly as possible shooting offhand, incorporating some movement, as well as only loading 5 to 10 rnds per mag and doing several mag changes. It's a lot more fun to get an instant response from your target.

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

An optic over 4x is pretty much a hindrance if shooting off-hand or at moving targets.

 

Point blank range on most battle rifles is between 250-350 yards. This means that you don't have to adjust holdover to hit a 10" kill zone within any distance from 0 to Point Blank Range.

 

Shooting 1" groups at 300 yards from a benchrest is fun, but not a necessary survival skill. Shooting off-hand effectively is - very rarely will a bad guy that wants to kill you and your family be stationary at a known distance while you have time to set up a bench position. Group shooting shows what your rifle is capable of in ideal conditions which don't happen in real life.

 

Red Dots and optics can fail so a backup is essential if in a survival situation.

 

Edited to Add: Your long range bench gun is not practical to wield as a close quarters weapon (at 12-18 lbs.), which is why our snipers carry theirs on their backs with an M-4 up front in-hand. The big boy doesn't come out until they are in a position that it will be effective.

Edited by BuffetDestroyer
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If you don't have some sort of irons along with your optics, you might as well relegate the gun to range/plinking use only. Because when the day comes that you actually need to defend your life with the gun, something is going to go wrong at the absolute worst time, and having some redundancy may save your butt.

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Taliban in flip-flops & night-shirts using .39s with iron sights are "outgunning" US troops with ACOGs on ARs, simply due to a more effective bullet.

Not so much Pauly. The 7.62x39 works pretty good within 300 meters because of accuracy issues with the AK. The M-4 with an ACOG can reach further out but too far and the projectile loses energy needed to put the target down. Most engagement distances in Afghanistan are greater than both will handle effectively.

The enemy has resorted to using scoped 7.62x54R rifles and beltfeds and we counter with good old scoped M-14/M-21 for DM rifles, M-240Bs, and of course the precision stuff carried by our Snipers. This is also the reason the SCAR 17 is being fielded by certain units over there. We also use something called Close Air Support. :devil:

Back on subject though. Apart from my bolt guns, I have irons on everything and if it has a RDS on it, they co-witness. The military makes you qualify on the M-4 with irons before you qualify with the Aimpoint on it BTW.

Edited by MT Predator
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I have a red/green dot scope on my saiga 7.62 and love it for picking up the target fast. I also still have the stock irons on my rifle and would never change that because if the scope fails in a life or death situation I can quickly take off my side mount and start using the irons.

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Your long range bench gun is not practical to wield as a close quarters weapon (at 12-18 lbs.), which is why our snipers carry theirs on their backs with an M-4 up front in-hand. The big boy doesn't come out until they are in a position that it will be effective.

I know one SF Sniper who used a M-4 with an EOTech most of his time in Iraq. Engagements were that close.

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AK's need irons, increasing the sight radius and range time is the way to make them work. 8" gong at 300 yds is do-able with my RPK. Not MOA but put a pie plate anywhere on your body that you don't want a bullet to go.

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  • 1 month later...

I don't see the reason many folks bitch about the stock irons. I get 10rounds on a 2" shoot-n-see very consistantly at 50yards. 100 yards though only 3 or 4 but all the rest within a 4-5 inch grouping on average. Though I do get a couple flyers(I think it is when I try a follow up shoot too quickly).

I did just order up a POSP 4x24 the other day, I just wanted one ya know ! :D With it you can use the irons if need be. Plus a Russian scope on a Russian gun just seemed to go together.

Edited by Bigtwin
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The only thing I don't like about the irons is just the style of them.

 

Yea, there's lots of options, just saying. The standard notch style sights just make it take a little longer to focus on something a good ways off, especially if it's moving, or you're having to compensate for range because you're too lazy to adjust your sight.

 

Peep style sights are awesome. That's why my AR15 is the only gun I've eventually just stopped using optics with, because it feels unnecessary.

 

If my S308's front sight wasn't so canted I'd get some tech sights, forget the PO4x, and just shoot irons.

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In the middle of the summer, when you bail out of you truck (with the air conditioning running) your optic is going to fog up immediately and your gun is basically worthless. You would already know that, if you ever tried it.

 

Tony

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I asked this because I never use my irons when I go to the range.

 

Most everyone are always asking which optic I should get or this is the optic I use....... This only leads me to believe that hardly anyone use their irons in any essential way. In other words, REALLY DEPEND ON IT!

 

FWUW, nothing in my gunsafe right now has an optic of any sort on it. I personally like irons, and I think that getting good with the iron sights on any weapon is a great idea. Any optic, no matter how good it is, can fail.

 

That being said, I should point out that I don't do any "long range" shooting, so irons are more than enough for me. I plan on picking up a 20" AR upper soon, and I do plan on putting a magnified optic on it.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Irons are essential enough to me that the first thing I did with the PSL was to make sure the Irons were on... And they are, even with a canted FSB.

 

The 4x TIP2 is zero'd (and has a bullet-drop cam in it), so now I'm fighting with the big Vortex Viper 6.5-20x44. It seems that my siderail isn't aligned correctly, so I am going to shim the weaver rail a bit.

 

And I'm looking for a small reddot to stick on the other weaver rail. It'd put me into open class for the 3-gun matches, but so would a Saiga.

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Another thing to consider, how often have you tripped while walking around a muddy range and splashed mud up on your optics?

 

That would put you out of business in most cases, especially if you were running a co-witness set up. Sure you can wipe it out as a temporary quick fix, but that's going to involve a lot of luck.

 

Caps aren't always going to save you either, you need to open them to shoot, therefor if anything happens while they're open you're equally screwed.

Edited by Tombs
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My Saiga .308 - If I am going to be shooting out from 100yds to even 300yds I'm definitely using an optic at about maybe 8x - 10x. Sorry I don't have eagle eyes.

You should be able to hit a mansized target at 200-300 yards with iron sights. I have crappy distance vision, and I need to get my eyes checked again, but I still put a 7.62x54mm hole in an IPSC silhouette, offhand, with the irons today. I don't think it was an A-hit (center-mass), but it was a torso hit at 200, offhand.

 

My Saiga .223 - I'm always using my scope at 4x when shooting at 100yds. I don't see how anyone can get any decent groups using irons especially AK style irons.

Practice. Lots of it, but I really prefer a ghost-ring rear (AR-style) to the leaf rear (AKs and others). In fact, I would put a ghost-ring onto almost any weapon I own, just for consistency, and you can get fixed AR-style rear sights with a picatinny mount for not much money.

 

Okay that being said, I still leave myself open to using irons as a backup but thats in a worse case scenario where I would use that as a last resort. So how good would that be? At 50yds? At 100yds?

With practice, mansized target at 500m is perfectly do-able, but I would say that 200m is more than reasonable. You see, US Marines engage man-sized silhouettes at 500m with iron sights, but they also get a decent amount of practice.

 

how important is that extra sight radius for irons that I'll hardly ever use to justify the added cost to have that sight radius? If I ever have to use irons as a last ditch effort, would that extra bit of sight radius really mean any real effectiveness?

One three-gunner I know has a ~6" long set of sights on his competition AR, they're good to about 100 yards, but I have never seen Travis use them beyond about 50 yards. Longer than that, he uses the 4x scope. Another three-gunner I know has full-length sights on his AR, and was shooting clay pigeons offhand at 200 yards with them today.

Edited by Scott Kenny
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  • 2 weeks later...

What are the general thoughts on making POA to be on the top of the sight post?

What are the downsides? For longer distances wouldn't this be better because you are not covering your target with the front sight post?

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm not sure that's a good plan. At *very* close ranges (less than 60-90 FEET, depending on round), you need to put the top of the post at the neck to hit center of mass, and then from ~20m-200m, you need to aim low to hit center of mass.

 

I like irons set to put the point of impact centered on the top of the front sight post, not 'lollypop' where the entire target is above the front sight post.

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