5.45 vs. 5.56 mm/.223

[SgtRaven 531]

Have you ever compared them side-by-side?

Any thoughts?

(Left: .223/5.56 mm Silver Bear;

Right: 5.45 mm Soviet surplus).

Edited December 17, 2010 by Sgt. Raven

[beefcakeb99 572]

OK.....aaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnndddddddddd then?

[jimdigriz 580]

Have you ever compared them side-by-side?

Any thoughts?

(Left: .223/5.56 mm Silver Bear;

Right: 5.45 mm Soviet surplus).

 

The design of the 5.45 makes it more sure in feeding and extraction. However, you can get more devastating loads for .223/5.56. I have and like both.

 

I found tonight that a fully loaded Circle 10 30 rounder in 5.45 is a quarter pound lighter than a fully loaded Circle 10 30 rounder in 5.56. Not a big deal for me, but I've been trying to get the lightest possible setup for my wife, and every bit counts.

[toshbar 36]

Can't beat 12 cents/round of 5.45. Surplus is plenty accurate, I'm doing 1.4MOA (7" at 500 yards). I don't mind hosing it down after shooting.

 

I'd like to get a 5.45 upper for my AR.

[jamesavery22 54]

There was a huge discussion over 5.45 5.56 & 7.62x39 over at warrior talk a while back. Maybe a year?

 

Basic conclusions:

Of the three, the 5.45 has the flattest trajectory and past 100 yards 5.45 will have more energy than the other two.

 

Of the three and within 100 yards 5.56 has better terminal ballistics. This is due to the plethora of HP and fragmenting rounds.

 

There were more but around 7.62x39...

[TARE 47]

 

Basic conclusions:

Of the three, the 5.45 has the flattest trajectory and past 100 yards 5.45 will have more energy than the other two.

 

Of the three and within 100 yards 5.56 has better terminal ballistics. This is due to the plethora of HP and fragmenting rounds.

 

 

How does 5.45 have a flatter trajectory than the faster 5.56 or .223 (which is pretty much the same round as the 5.56)?

 

I agree that the 5.56 should be more devastating under 100 yards, maybe even beyond that since is starts out of the muzzle faster.

 

 

The 5.45 doesn't fragment like the 5.56 or .223 but it does tend to tumble and yaw earlier than similarly profiled bullets, hornady makes a v-max round that will porbly exhibit the best wounding ability, but I havent seen any real hard data on that rounds wounding potential yet.

[jimdigriz 580]

How does 5.45 have a flatter trajectory than the faster 5.56 or .223 (which is pretty much the same round as the 5.56)?

 

I agree that the 5.56 should be more devastating under 100 yards, maybe even beyond that since is starts out of the muzzle faster.

 

Some of this is dependent on barrel length. I wouldn't expect 223 out of a 16 inch barrel to be faster than 5.45...maybe just slightly. To me, a 16 inch .223/5.56 is good for up to 100 yards. My own Saiga 223 is relegated for a home defense role. In a SHTF situation where longer shots were possible, I would prefer the 5.45.

[toshbar 36]

I looked around and the 5.56 is only doing about 15-20 m/s faster than 5.45 out of a 16.5" barrel. This seems negligible.

[TARE 47]

Oh, for some reason I thought 5.56 had a couple hundred fps on the 5.45. I don't really shoot any 5.56, and thought the reason the 5.45 didn't fragment like the 5.56 was because it was a couple hundred fps slower.

[jimdigriz 580]

Oh, for some reason I thought 5.56 had a couple hundred fps on the 5.45. I don't really shoot any 5.56, and thought the reason the 5.45 didn't fragment like the 5.56 was because it was a couple hundred fps slower.

 

The 5.45 does sometimes fragment at close range.

 

Here's a useful video comparison of chronograph numbers for XM193 and 7N6, both out of a 16 inch barrel. The numbers where generally within about 20-30 FPS of each other. None of his 5.45 shots are over 3000 FPS, but many people have chrono'ed it at that velocity and a bit greater.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHvnOIKtKuE

Edited December 20, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[SgtRaven 531]

I was debating for a while and, cost aside, decided on 5.45 mm (just picked mine last week).

Primarily because of my service experience with this caliber (AKS-74/AKS-74U).

We were told that devastated effects of "poison bullet" (Mujahideens called them so) are within the range of 200-500 meters.

I've got this for tactical, so don't care much about the mid-range.

With Hornady onboard of 5.45 train, I feel more secure, but ordered few surplus "spam cans", just in case.

I also hope that better variety of 5.45 ammo lies ahead, as .223 line is like a Toys"R Us (in the best meaning of it!)...

(Advantage of free market enterprise!).

Edited December 20, 2010 by Sgt. Raven

[TARE 47]

Thanks for the info Jim Digriz

OP here is a chart I borrowed and simplified

 

5.56 Ballistic performance

Bullet weight/type

Velocity

Energy

4 g (62 gr) SS109 FMJBT

940 m/s (3,100 ft/s)

1,767 J (1,303 ft·lbf)

4.1 g (63 gr) DM11 FMJBT

936 m/s (3,070 ft/s)

1,796 J (1,325 ft·lbf)

4.1 g (63 gr) GP 90 FMJBT

905 m/s (2,970 ft/s)

1,679 J (1,238 ft·lbf)

5.45x39 Ballistic performance

Bullet weight/type

Velocity

Energy

3.2 g (49 gr) 5N7 FMJmild steel core

915 m/s (3,000 ft/s)

1,340 J (990 ft·lbf)

3.43 g (52.9 gr) 7N6 FMJ hardened steel core

880 m/s (2,900 ft/s)

1,328 J (979 ft·lbf)

3.62 g (55.9 gr) 7N10 FMJ enhanced penetration

880 m/s (2,900 ft/s)

1,402 J (1,034 ft·lbf)

3.68 g (56.8 gr) 7N22 AP hardened steel core

890 m/s (2,900 ft/s)

1,457 J (1,075 ft·lbf)

Sorry it WAS a chart

Edited December 20, 2010 by TARE

[essohbe 47]

I was debating for a while and, cost aside, decided on 5.45 mm

 

- Yea, I did the same. I think .223 is okay but 5.45 impresses me more. Then I got a case of it for $240 and was even happier.

 

 

I'd like to get a 5.45 upper for my AR.

 

- People interested in the 5,45 uppers for the AR should know most the twist rates were about 1-in-8 on a regular barrel. That's pretty fast to be shooting the lighter surplus. I think that's why most people I communicated with were using the heavier new production 5.45 rounds in their AR's.

[douglastisdall25 0]

I don't think that twist rate is too fast for 5.45x39. I do believe that 1 in 8 is the twist rate on an AK-74 and K-VAR has the 5.45 Saiga's twist rate listed as 1 in 7.68.

[jimdigriz 580]

One benefit of 5.45 that I mentioned to someone else recently is that it simplifies ammo procurement. Your cheap practice ammo is your fighting ammo also. Besides my 5.45 rifles, I have the .223 Saiga, and shoot Russian steel cased commercial ammo out of it, but would rather not use that ammo for potential fighting purposes. It is unreliable - I've had failures to fire with it and heard of reports of the same from others - and the terminal performance is not that good in most cases. So I have to buy expensive brass-cased or Hornady ammo in addition to the steel cased practice ammo. But the 5.45 7N6 surplus is cheap, reliable, accurate, and a good wounder, and so one only needs to stock up on one kind of ammo for that caliber. Simplicity is good.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Jim Digriz

[djecp1 0]

I'm very happy with my polish tantal from century, made in 2009. It is very accurate. 500 dollars and ammo 14 cents per round delivered from aimsurplus.com. Perfect reliability through about 4 or 5 thousand rounds, including with 45 round magazines. It is alot of fun to shoot and is economical. 6000 rounds in my store room, and hornady and wolf are making ammo for it also. Not as powerful as a 223, but it has a folding stock and is better than a pistol for home self defense. A 7.62 by 39 would be more powerful but I have neighbors close by.

[Wade Pruetz 103]

Interesting that the silver bear was about 200fps slower than the 7n6, I expected it to be slower because of the heavier projectile but not that much slower. How much does that change the POI when shooting both 7n6 and silver bear?

[TX-Zen 287]

Interesting that the silver bear was about 200fps slower than the 7n6, I expected it to be slower because of the heavier projectile but not that much slower. How much does that change the POI when shooting both 7n6 and silver bear?

 

 

It could be because of different powder / less hot load. Next time we hit the range we can compare though and know for sure.

 

 

Z

[TX-Zen 287]

None of his 5.45 shots are over 3000 FPS, but many people have chrono'ed it at that velocity and a bit greater.

 

 

Thats my experience too, thats it a bit faster than the results he obtained.

A few years ago I chrono'd a few dozen rounds of Russian 7N6, the average MV was about 3060 fps out of a 16" SLR105, I don't recall that any were below 3000 fps or above 3100 fps. It seemed surprisingly consistent too

 

 

 

Z

Edited December 26, 2010 by TX-Zen

[jamesavery22 54]

Oh, for some reason I thought 5.56 had a couple hundred fps on the 5.45. I don't really shoot any 5.56, and thought the reason the 5.45 didn't fragment like the 5.56 was because it was a couple hundred fps slower.

 

5.56 does have a greater muzzle velocity and energy than 5.45:

http://world.guns.ru/ammunition/intermediate-cartridges-e.html

 

5.56's velocity drop between 0-100 yards is also greater hence it has less energy than 5.45 past 100 yards.

 

Any rusky 5.45 ammo isn't designed to fragment. It's designed to tumble.

[jimdigriz 580]

5.56 does have a greater muzzle velocity and energy than 5.45:

Not to any significant degree, given a 16 inch barrel on both weapons.

 

5.56's velocity drop between 0-100 yards is also greater hence it has less energy than 5.45 past 100 yards.

5.45 is the more consistent performer over various distances, which is another reason I prefer it over 5.56.

[beefcakeb99 572]

5.45 is the more consistent performer

any day

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

The thing to look at is ballistic coefficient of the bullet. Typically long skinny bullets like the 5.45 retain more velocity as they resist the wind better than the shorter bullets of the 5.56.

 

The 5.56 and 5.45 each have advantages over the other.

 

First, 5.45 is very cheap and plentiful! Second, the 5.45 has a longer bullet than most of the 5.56 ammunition the military uses. However the new 75 grain and even the 90 grain .224 bullets can outperform the 5.45 - the only problem is having the proper twist rate and magazine length (the 90 grainers won't fit in a magazine and need to be single loaded with a 1 in 7 twist), plus these bullets are usually very, very expensive compared 5.45 ($.14/round vs. $1.00+/round). So the 5.45 has a more efficient ballistic performance with military (cheap) ammo over a long distance and it tumbles efficiently to create deep wounding channels and hydrostatic shock in organic matter. The minor negative is surplus ammo that is cheap is also slightly corrosive.

 

The advantage of the 5.56/.223 is wide range of bullets you can get to match your desired use. From 35 grains up to the 90 grains, it is very versatile. You can get fragmenting, steel core, hollow point, ballistic tip, tracer, API, solid copper and many other types of bullets. Cost is higher, but with the proper load, a 5.56 can outperform the 5.45 out to 500-600 yards while also having expansion or fragmentation capabilities. The wide array of brass & bullets allows you to also custom tailor your handloads to your gun for your given purpose. Where right now reloadable 5.45 brass & loading data is almost non-existent so you are stuck with the surplus or the limited factory stuff (Hornady being the only American player I know of right now) that is out there right now.

 

 

Speaking of Hornady, the Superformance .223 VMax load pushes a 53 grain bullet about 3,465 fps at the muzzle and it is still going 1,913 fps at 500 Yards with the same kinetic energy as a 40 S&W at the muzzle at that distance. This powder may be the game changer to put smaller cartridges (including the 5.45) into the league of the big boys.

[breaker104 1]

This has been some great reading, thanks guys. I figure I'll get a 5.45 saiga after buying a handgun or two.

[SgtRaven 531]

Thanks, BuffetDestroyer!

 

Good read indeed.

Speaking of casing size and and available powder volume, (the only) 60g 5.45 V-Max is trailing behind with 2810 fps.

I am not reloader, nor have a deep pockets or need for V-MAX (will try for a heck of it), but sure hope to see greater variety in 5.45.

(I've made my contribution).

[essohbe 47]

There is a ****** chambered in 5.45 also but I forgot what it is exactly. Something Russian, no doubt.

Edited January 23, 2011 by Kalashniklown

[jimdigriz 580]

There is a pistol chambered in 5.45 also but I forgot what it is exactly. Something Russian, no doubt.

 

5.45 pistols must not be spoken of.

[essohbe 47]

5.45 ******* must not be spoken of.

 

Yea, I think I know what you are talking about.

 

Ewps.

Edited January 23, 2011 by Kalashniklown