Welding holes in Saiga 12 Reciever

[macaholic 5]

I would like to hear from some of you who have welded the holes in the sides of your Saiga 12 recievers. What were some of the methods and procedures used, and did you use a MIG or TIG welder? I am going to use a MIG and would like to hear some of your personal experiences. Also, are there any videos on this subject that I can refferr to? Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Edited December 23, 2010 by macaholic

[boatbod 2]

I would like to hear from some of you who have welded the holes in the sides of your Saiga 12 recievers. What were some of the methods and procedures used, and did you use a MIG or TIG welder? I am going to use a MIG and would like to hear some of your personal experiences. Also, are there any videos on this subject that I can refferr to? Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

Temporary copper backing plate and TIG would be my choice. You could use MIG but you better be quick or you'll have excess filler everywhere.

[6500rpm 670]

Same as above but have used both Tig and Mig. To tell you the trueth, I've never had any problems Mig welding small stuff with a backing plate-I just take a few passes on like gauge material to make sure my settings are good and run with it and always use shielding gas (Argon or Argon/CO2). Pauly should show up soon, welding shit seems to be the fix for everything in his world and he seems to have a pretty good grasp on it so he might have some good advice. Just stay away from torch and stick welding and you should be ok.

[macaholic 5]

Same as above but have used both Tig and Mig. To tell you the trueth, I've never had any problems Mig welding small stuff with a backing plate-I just take a few passes on like gauge material to make sure my settings are good and run with it and always use shielding gas (Argon or Argon/CO2). Pauly should show up soon, welding shit seems to be the fix for everything in his world and he seems to have a pretty good grasp on it so he might have some good advice. Just stay away from torch and stick welding and you should be ok.

 

 

I agree, I use a MIG for all my gunsmithing. I just get tired of haveing to keep going over places where the weld does'nt penetrate. To give an example, I will fill a hole and when I go to grind down the beed, only half the hole will be sealed while you can still see the outline of the other side where the weld did not seal. So, I have to lay down another bead on the other side of the hole and repeat the same process of grinding and filing untill all of the outlne is solid. Man I tell you it's such a pain in the ASSSS!!!!!!!! I realy wish I knew how to operate a TIG, because I know guy's that say a TIG penetrates the metal, while a MIG lay's all of it's weld on the surface. Which makes sense as to why the MIG dominates in the field of auto body for patch work in rust repair. Anyway, I would like to see some video's on the use of the MIG specificaly for the purpose of welding the holes on the sides of the Saiga-12 reciever. Do you know if any exist?

Edited December 24, 2010 by macaholic

[macaholic 5]

Same as above but have used both Tig and Mig. To tell you the trueth, I've never had any problems Mig welding small stuff with a backing plate-I just take a few passes on like gauge material to make sure my settings are good and run with it and always use shielding gas (Argon or Argon/CO2). Pauly should show up soon, welding shit seems to be the fix for everything in his world and he seems to have a pretty good grasp on it so he might have some good advice. Just stay away from torch and stick welding and you should be ok.

 

 

I tell ya' 6500 rpm, I'm almost considering filling the side holes with rivets. I am thinking of installing the rivets on each side of the reciever and welding them from inside to hold them solid. I mean I really do not look forward to all that fucking grinding and fileing and grinding and fileing and rewelding and grinding and WHAT THE FFFFFFUUCCKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited December 24, 2010 by macaholic

[macaholic 5]

Same as above but have used both Tig and Mig. To tell you the trueth, I've never had any problems Mig welding small stuff with a backing plate-I just take a few passes on like gauge material to make sure my settings are good and run with it and always use shielding gas (Argon or Argon/CO2). Pauly should show up soon, welding shit seems to be the fix for everything in his world and he seems to have a pretty good grasp on it so he might have some good advice. Just stay away from torch and stick welding and you should be ok.

 

 

Anyway, If there are any video's that you know of on this topic, specifically for welding the side holes of the Saiga 12 with a MIG welder, please let me know. I would like to see some of what the other guy's are doing from a few different perspectives. Thanks

Edited December 24, 2010 by macaholic

[Paulyski 2,227]

If you decide to MIG weld the receiver, I'd go for L-50 (Lincoln brand) wire. The receiver is a chrome-moly alloy steel. (argon/co2 mix, Pure argon is for TIG, MIG requires the Co2 for short arc transfer)

 

Go for a copper back plate if you like, I just did it quickly & dressed both sides.

I'm really quick with my MIG though.

 

 

ETA, Yeah, Welding is usually my fix for everything...

Welds don't work their way loose.

Edited December 25, 2010 by Paulyski

[boatbod 2]

I agree, I use a MIG for all my gunsmithing. I just get tired of haveing to keep going over places where the weld does'nt penetrate.

 

Sounds like you need a little more heat. Unlike stick, MIG will lay down a nice bead even when it doesn't penetrate properly, so you really have to spend some time tuning the settings to get it just right. TIG gives you much finer control over heat input relative to quantity of filler material, but it's a much slower process, which is why you don't commonly see it used for auto body work etc.

[skiboatsp 111]

I agree, I use a MIG for all my gunsmithing. I just get tired of haveing to keep going over places where the weld does'nt penetrate.

 

Sounds like you need a little more heat. Unlike stick, MIG will lay down a nice bead even when it doesn't penetrate properly, so you really have to spend some time tuning the settings to get it just right. TIG gives you much finer control over heat input relative to quantity of filler material, but it's a much slower process, which is why you don't commonly see it used for auto body work etc.

 

An excellent desciption.

 

Mig will penetrate with the proper setup

 

Tig give better control

[Ogar Lumox 1]

Aluminum can also be used as a backer for filling holes. An oxy-acetylene tourch would work too. If you can weld good with a tourch you can run TIG.

[frick 3]

If you aren't getting full penetration with your MIG, you need more heat, and copper makes a far better backer than aluminum, you wont end up with "AlumaSteel" gunk on the back of the weld, though AL is usable.

 

Tig is superior for filling, but, a longer weld time, more heat poured into the area, possibly softening the receiver more.

 

Enough heat with the MIG, a quick "SPUT" of a weld, and you are done, in less than half a second, grinding wise, are you using a mini grinder? Even a dremel? A radial flap wheel should buff that tiny spot clean in about 10 seconds, even on a small mini grinder.

 

I am considering a full conversion, and I really think I am going to leave the original FCG holes intact, and plugged, rather than welding them up. Why? Because in a relatively small amount of time, you could easily return it to a sporting configuration.

[skiboatsp 111]

If you aren't getting full penetration with your MIG, you need more heat, and copper makes a far better backer than aluminum, you wont end up with "AlumaSteel" gunk on the back of the weld, though AL is usable.

 

Tig is superior for filling, but, a longer weld time, more heat poured into the area, possibly softening the receiver more.

 

Enough heat with the MIG, a quick "SPUT" of a weld, and you are done, in less than half a second, grinding wise, are you using a mini grinder? Even a dremel? A radial flap wheel should buff that tiny spot clean in about 10 seconds, even on a small mini grinder.

 

I am considering a full conversion, and I really think I am going to leave the original FCG holes intact, and plugged, rather than welding them up. Why? Because in a relatively small amount of time, you could easily return it to a sporting configuration.

 

Why? Because in a relatively small amount of time, you could easily return it to a sporting configuration. ???

 

To dress the welds properly.....so you cannot tell it's welded it takes more than a few minutes.

Edited January 14, 2011 by saigatechusa

[6500rpm 670]

+1^^^. In either MIG/ TIG as long as you use shielding gass you shouldn't get splatter. You're essentially just filling a VERY SMALL hole. Penetration shouldn't be an issue. You can pick up a $10 air angle grinder with an abrasive disc from Harbor Freight and dress the weld spot in just a few minutes and still have a $10 angle grinder to do all kinds of stupid shit around the house. Welding and dressing those 4 little holes is less than an hour job for me and believe me, I'm no expert and I'm using cheap shit HF equipment.

[macaholic 5]

If you aren't getting full penetration with your MIG, you need more heat, and copper makes a far better backer than aluminum, you wont end up with "AlumaSteel" gunk on the back of the weld, though AL is usable.

 

Tig is superior for filling, but, a longer weld time, more heat poured into the area, possibly softening the receiver more.

 

Enough heat with the MIG, a quick "SPUT" of a weld, and you are done, in less than half a second, grinding wise, are you using a mini grinder? Even a dremel? A radial flap wheel should buff that tiny spot clean in about 10 seconds, even on a small mini grinder.

 

I am considering a full conversion, and I really think I am going to leave the original FCG holes intact, and plugged, rather than welding them up. Why? Because in a relatively small amount of time, you could easily return it to a sporting configuration.

 

 

I'm thinking of doing the same thing. Not because I want to be able to go back to sporter configuration, but because the holes in the sides of the reciever aren't that big of a deal, and I may not want to go through all the filing and grinding. I'm a perfectionist with my work, and I can see myself going crazy over this operation. I do plan to weld the holes in the underside, and from there, I will make my final decission concerning the holes in the sides of the reciever. As we speak, CGW still has the gun and Vickey said it's at the engraver, so I hope to see it some time soon. .

Edited January 15, 2011 by macaholic

[DrewBone 1]

Welding, by definition, is the manipulation of molten metal, be it steel, SS, aluminum, titanium, etc., and as such requires a certain level of skill. training and experience to be undertaken properly. Welding also requires the understanding of ALL the hand welding processes, the unique characteristics of each material whether ferrous or non ferrous in nature, and the ability to recognize what's going on in front of you and adapt on the fly to ever changing conditions. Some history...

 

From the beginning there was oxy-acet...a long gone welding art form which has been used for welding steels, brazing, soft and silver soldering, and lastly the cutting of ferrous materials. It's overly impinging flame is hard to prevent from scourching the surrounding work areas and is a rather dirty process besides...and even though in the early years of aviation this process was used to weld aluminum, todays results with TIG are a far cry above oxy-acet. All shops have some form of oxy-acet rig in their inventory.

 

Next came arc/stick welding and this was all fine and good for many years, although somewhat limited to the materials that could be soundly welded. Out of position welding was/is difficult without a decent level of skill, there's the slow deposition of filler material, and of course the cleanup of chipping slag and splatter from the surrounding area. Again, most shops will have a stick rig be it plug in or mobile unit.

 

MIG in it's inception was designed for rapid deposition of filler material with little or no cleanup, and is ideally suited for production applications and the occassional "small job." Sure, .030" filler wire can be used for thinner material but once you start talking 10' butt weld seams on .062" aluminum you've entered a different realm, one of which will require the use of fixtures, other clamping devices and automated equipment. Also, the training required to "successfully" weld MIG is much less than is required of the other processes unless one is undertaking in-position vertical up/overhead welding of SS, lead, and aluminum. Most of todays shops will have a MIG welder on hand due to it's less skill required and less cleanup equating to less time overall spent of fab/repair.

 

TIG was invented to allow a welding operator full control over this manipulation of metal on virtually any ferrous or non ferrous material and in any position be it vertical, overhead, 6G, etc. This is the cat's meow of welding, as there is NO other hand welding process that the operator has such control over, with a rheostat foot pedal to control amperage and hand applying of filler material. Not all shops will have a TIG rig because of the skill required to TIG properly, which reminds me of this...during my late high school years one of my vocational welding instructors gathered us all around him one day when we were starting our TIG training and he told us..."Listen f**kers, there are only two kinds of TIG welds, excellent and sh*t." And damn, was he right, but after years of experience I find that those words hold true to ALL the welding processes as well.

 

Welding is indeed an art form; it cannot be gleened overnight nor from a book nor from some socalled "exspurt" down at the local Shell station...it is a learned skill that takes years to obtain, and even so, there are some people who will never get their "hand" no matter how hard they try due to things like a lack of hand/eye coordination, etc. Those who feel they can buy a HF POS MIG welder and in two minutes weld a doorchock together then go out and weld a 16,000 lb. tow receiver on a friends pickup truck have another thing coming and had better have a decent amount of liability/homeowners insurance LOL. Anyway...

 

...back to the subject of filling those pesky 4 holes in the Saiga receiver; to me, MIG is overkill unless you have the proper backup [copper/aluminum] along with a decent machine and skills that are worth a damn. Otherwise you're looking at possible overheating, overpenetrating, and adding too much material. Too much material ='s too much grinding which ='s a tough job keeping an equal surface. It's a very fine line between the afformentioned believe me and over the years of seeing internet weld jobs I sometimes shutter at what I see...that along with the many weld failures I have witnessed over the years undertaken by backyard and garage "welders." TIG would be the way to go, as there is a very limited heat affected zone as compared to MIG, and as always with TIG you have mucho control over the outcome, that is of course, if you know what you're doing. And if one has no access to a good welder nor the skills to do the job themselves, it's time for the nylon plugs and call it a day before you screw things up but good.

 

As always, this is just my opinion, gathered from 33 years in the industry and 25 years of employ with Grumman/Northrop-Grumman as a welder/fabricator ;-)

[Paulyski 2,227]

I would avoid oxy/gas on Saiga parts unless it's being used for heat treating.

 

In addition to massive heat transfer due to the length of time it takes a 6,500 degree flame to heat steel as opposed to a 10,000+ degree arc depending on process & amperage, many of the steels, such as 30-HRA are so close to being a stainless alloy that oxidation doesn't want to occur with gas.

This makes achieving good fusion rather difficult.

 

As for whether to even do it at all or not, It's a matter of personal preference.

If one knows what they're doing, many would argue that increases the value of the firearm.

However, as we all know, "value" and "worth" are rather subjective concepts.

 

That being said, other than for Saigas, my Victor J-100 is still my favorite out of my MIG, ARC, TIG, & oxy/gas outfits.

I think it's just because I like to play with fire.

 

[rq375 1]

I backedup the holes with pre-82 pennies held with needle-nose vice grips and welded the holes with a MIG using .023 wire, worked great.

[skiboatsp 111]

Increases the value if you can't easily see it's been modified.

 

I've seen some really rough jobs and this is why I say the finish work cannot be rushed.

 

I spot mine with dykem or a sharpe, then grind to just flush without touching the reciever, then file untill smooth.

 

This assures you won't see any evidence of repair. The reciever is flat and smooth.

[macaholic 5]

Increases the value if you can't easily see it's been modified.

 

I've seen some really rough jobs and this is why I say the finish work cannot be rushed.

 

I spot mine with dykem or a sharpe, then grind to just flush without touching the reciever, then file untill smooth.

 

This assures you won't see any evidence of repair. The reciever is flat and smooth.

 

I do it the same way with a die grinder then I file down flush with a fine machinest file. The only problem I have is the weld not filling the hole completely. When I lay the bead down, it covers the hole but when I get the weld filed down flush, I can almost always see a hair line of the other half of the hole. I am using a Miller MIG welder on #2 setting so I believe the heat is high enough. I don't want to burn a bigger hole due to too high a heat setting. I just got finished with my first Saiga-12 conversion and I chose to weld the holes on the sides of the reciever. It was every bit the pain in the ass I thought it would be, but I got through it okay. The welds are solid and I am going to finish the gun in Dura coat matt black. I finished it for now in some flat laquer black spray paint so I could put it together and test fire. The gun runs fantastic! I only painted the reciever because it's a brand new gun, and everything matches perfectly. The welds on the side left a very slight hairline shadow on one side of the hole, but they are solid and penetrated completely. I plan to use Durafill for cosmetics before I apply the final Duracoat. I am not going to weld the side holes on my other Saiga-12 though. I just don't want to go through all the hassle again.

Edited February 25, 2011 by macaholic

[macaholic 5]

I backedup the holes with pre-82 pennies held with needle-nose vice grips and welded the holes with a MIG using .023 wire, worked great.

 

When you grind the weld down flush, can you see an outline of one side of the hole on any of your welds?

Edited February 24, 2011 by macaholic

[skiboatsp 111]

I backedup the holes with pre-82 pennies held with needle-nose vice grips and welded the holes with a MIG using .023 wire, worked great.

 

When you grind the weld down flush, can you see an outline of one side of the hole on any of your welds?

 

If I spend enough time no.

 

After hearing from you I can see you are much the same a perfectionist as myself.

 

To do it right it takes more than a few minutes

 

Be sure to post pics when your finished!

[rq375 1]

I backedup the holes with pre-82 pennies held with needle-nose vice grips and welded the holes with a MIG using .023 wire, worked great.

 

When you grind the weld down flush, can you see an outline of one side of the hole on any of your welds?

 

 

strike the arc on the edge of the hole, not the copper, them bring the puddle around to fill= no outline. If you see the outline of the origional hole you have to do it again, the wire melted and created a plug but did not fuse with surrounding metal (receiver) and can fall out.