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toshbar

Removing foreign made parts to immediately be compliant

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Question has been dumbed down and re-asked in post 6, and again dumbed down further in post 10.

Edited by toshbar

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This is entirely fictitious:

 

Lets say there was an ATF agent at the range checking everyone's guns for 922r compliance....yes this is far fetched, but the setup is needed for my question.

 

For example purposes only, lets say my gun has 12 imported parts on it, three of which are the bolt and bolt carrier which also includes has the gas piston that is attached. Before the ATF agent gets to me, I need to be down to 10 foreign made parts to be in compliance with the law.

 

Can I simply remove the bolt carrier/bolt/gas piston from the gun and be compliant since the gun now only has 9 imported parts connected to it?

 

And replace it with what? There is no such thing of a USA made bolt or bolt carrier for the Saiga, 922r deals in the replacement of parts when you attach a hi-cap mag or a PG onto the rifle....

 

Just an FYI and ATF agent can not inspect your rifle if it is compliant or not unless you are using it in a commission of a crime, or you get into a confrontation and the PD are called out, then the police may look at your rifle and if they determine that it is in fact that it is not compliant then they may contact ATF to investigate. ATF agents do not go to the range just to check peoples rifles, because if they did all they had to do is to walk around a gun show and on display they can see rifles that are not compliant. If they are smart they will pass by because the burden of proof that you are the one that did the conversion and it not being compliant lies on them.... As long as you keep your mouth shut you can not prove a thing...

 

My suggestion get compliant...............

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If you have made a decision to be non-compliant, I don't think dismantling your gun at the range is going to do you much good. You're just going to draw attention to yourself. In fact, it just sounds silly. I would suggest being in compliance, and if you don't do that then prepare to live with the consequences.

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You guys are totally skirting the question presented.

 

Let me simplify this for you.

If I have a gun that contains 2 more foreign parts than is allowed, and I remove those parts, it is compliant, isn't it?

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You guys are totally skirting the question presented.

 

Let me simplify this for you.

If I have a gun that contains 2 more foreign parts than is allowed, and I remove those parts, it is compliant, isn't it?

 

No, let me simplify my answer for you. I don't give advise on how to skirt the law. I know you are trying to make it seem as though you are trying to, in a sense, come into compliance. But it's obvious you want this compliance to happen on the spur of the moment as you are about to get caught, or store your gun in a different level of compliance than you intend to use it. Good luck with that. You're on your own there, buddy.

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922r deals in the replacement of parts when you attach a hi-cap mag or a PG onto the rifle....

I just read the verbage, and it has nothing to do with replacing parts. It only states that a rifle cannot have more than 10 foreign parts.

 

 

No, let me simplify my answer for you. I don't give advise on how to skirt the law. I know you are trying to make it seem as though you are trying to, in a sense, come into compliance. But it's obvious you want this compliance to happen on the spur of the moment as you are about to get caught, or store your gun in a different level of compliance than you intend to use it. Good luck with that. You're on your own there, buddy.

 

It doesn't get much 'simpler' than No, and this was never simplified, you went off on a tangent instead.

 

I already am compliant. THERE, now that we got that out of the way I'll ask the question a third time and dumb it down a little more.

 

Please remove any prior ideas/concepts/situations/and examples gained from my posts above from your mind before reading the next line.

 

 

 

Instead of replacing foreign parts with domestic parts to make a rifle comply with 922®, can you just take the foreign parts off?

 

I'll ask it again, in explicit terms.

 

If I buy a Saiga 7.62x39 rifle brand new, and then remove the (1)Stock, (2)Forward hand guard, (3)Hammer, (4)Trigger, (5)Disconnector, and then insert one(1) thirty (30) round detachable box magazine of foreign manufacture, will the rifle be in compliance with 18 USC 922R?

Edited by toshbar

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What do you do with the parts?

 

They get stored in case I want to go back to using 10 round magazines. 922R has no constructive intent, so you are allowed to have a 10 foreign parts gun AND foreign made magazines that are to be used in other 7 foreign parts guns.

 

 

 

On second thought, I've made up my mind to go ahead and make all my saigas comply with 922R and replace all the furniture with US made so I won't have to worry about it.

 

You guys can further discuss the subject, but I won't be replying unless someone specifically asks me one by name.

Edited by toshbar

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922r deals in the replacement of parts when you attach a hi-cap mag or a PG onto the rifle....

I just read the verbage, and it has nothing to do with replacing parts. It only states that a rifle cannot have more than 10 foreign parts.

 

 

Of course it does read it again, it clearly states that you have to change out the parts and gives you a list of the parts that you have to use in order to be compliant with, i.e., receiver - bolt - barrel - trigger group and so forth. What, you think they are saying that you can change it out with any parts like foreign parts if this is the case then why does 922r exist... All of us have told you no you can not do it and you will not be compliant... So just let us know how it works out for you......

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Of course it does read it again, it clearly states that you have to change out the parts and gives you a list of the parts that you have to use in order to be compliant with, i.e., receiver - bolt - barrel - trigger group and so forth.

 

False. It states that the rifle cannot have more than 10 foreign parts. It reads nothing about replacing parts. The idea of using US made parts is inferred from having to NOT use foreign parts.

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Of course it does read it again, it clearly states that you have to change out the parts and gives you a list of the parts that you have to use in order to be compliant with, i.e., receiver - bolt - barrel - trigger group and so forth.

 

False. It states that the rifle cannot have more than 10 foreign parts. It reads nothing about replacing parts. The idea of using US made parts is inferred from having to NOT use foreign parts.

 

OK I guess NOBODY here knows what they are talking about, go ahead and read what you want, we are telling you the way it is..........

 

Educate yourself bro......... http://www.victorinc.com/SKS-FAQ.html#_Toc167103936 The information here is from a well known guy on the net with 922r compliance. He asks BATFE directly with letters from this entity ........

 

LIKE I SAID GOOD LUCK TO YOU!!!!!!!!

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LIKE I SAID GOOD LUCK TO YOU!!!!!!!!

 

I need no luck when I comply with the law......actually, we all could get in a mess like Brian Aitken did.

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As noted earlier, 922r regulates how many imported parts can be used.

 

If your imported firearm only has 10 parts total then it's in compliance.

 

So if you remove the handguards and buttstock and "do not have them readily available" for installation (which would constitute constuctive intent) then sure you can remove an imported part from the equation. You'd be hard pressed to be sure you don't have the parts anywhere that could be construed as "possession". Not anywhere in or on property that you own or control.

 

So from a purely academic question if you meet at least these criteria a judge might drop the charges. An agent will simply arrest you, confiscate the weapon, and let the courts answer your question definitively. Personally, I don't want to go there.

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I need no luck when I comply with the law......

 

 

Yes, which is why lawyers are unnecessary...

 

Actually, since the question is so simple and you are so familiar with 922r, why ask at all? Is it rhetorical?

Edited by BobAsh
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I need no luck when I comply with the law......

 

 

Yes, which is why lawyers are unnecessary...

 

Actually, since the question is so simple and you are so familiar with 922r, why ask at all? Is it rhetorical?

 

+ 1

 

BOBASH,

We don't need no stinking badges.... :lolol:

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If I buy a Saiga 7.62x39 rifle brand new, and then remove the (1)Stock, (2)Forward hand guard, (3)Hammer, (4)Trigger, (5)Disconnector, and then insert one(1) thirty (30) round detachable box magazine of foreign manufacture, will the rifle be in compliance with USC 922R?

 

Actually I find this question amusing; are you asking if an incomplete parts kit can be considered a rifle under 922r?

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If I buy a Saiga 7.62x39 rifle brand new, and then remove the (1)Stock, (2)Forward hand guard, (3)Hammer, (4)Trigger, (5)Disconnector, and then insert one(1) thirty (30) round detachable box magazine of foreign manufacture, will the rifle be in compliance with USC 922R?

 

Actually I find this question amusing; are you asking if an incomplete parts kit can be considered a rifle under 922r?

 

It's not a 'parts kit' if there is a receiver in the equation. There is actually a 'firearm' there with the rest of the parts attached.

 

 

Glad to see some interest here.

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if you have five apples in a basket and take two apples away how any apples do you have?...........

Edited by madmax4x4

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if you have five apples in a basket and take two apples away how any apples do you have?...........

 

This is probably the easiest way to explain it.

 

922 doesn't regulate how many apples have to be in the basket, just that there can't be more than 10 grown out of the country.

Edited by toshbar

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I understand what you are trying to say, but think about this. If the Saiga was built in the USA from all US parts in pistol grip configuration, it would be legal. Now the purpose of 922 means that if an imported Saiga has only 10 imported parts, & the rest of the parts are made in the USA, then the gun is considered made in the USA, & legal to own with a pistol grip & hi cap mag. So if you just remove enough enough foreign parts & don't replace them with anything, your gun will still be 100% Russian made. You will not have any US parts, so the gun could not be considered "made in the USA". That's the purpose of 922, to have enough US parts to consider the gun American made. But a hi cap mag alone is 3 US parts. GARY N4KVE

Edited by N4KVE

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If I buy a Saiga 7.62x39 rifle brand new, and then remove the (1)Stock, (2)Forward hand guard, (3)Hammer, (4)Trigger, (5)Disconnector, and then insert one(1) thirty (30) round detachable box magazine of foreign manufacture, will the rifle be in compliance with 18 USC 922R?

First, you would NOT be compliant. 10 Russian-made parts, plus 3 foreign-made magazine parts does not equal '10 or fewer foreign-made parts'.

 

Second, what's the point of a rifle that cannot be fired? You need the FCG to have a working firearm, and without a stock of some kind, you cannot control the weapon even if you could fire it.

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Actually, its a VERY GOOD question.

 

I have a few MAKs that I have replaced the FCG's on, and installed chinese wood, so that they look as much like pre ban as possible.

 

And, with those parts, and a foreign magazine, they have more parts than are legal for 922R.

 

But, insert a USA mag, and they are fine in the parts count.

 

If there is no magazine, it also does not have the needed parts.

 

I don't see how a crime is committed without insertion of a foreign made mag, when it is still operable as a single shot, or with a low cap mag.

 

And the "Constructive Posession" cases I have seen have all been internal rulings, and not written laws. Can anyone show me that law that states, posessing an AR, with a rifle upper, and a pistol upper, is actually illegal?

 

Or has it just been declared that way by the ATF?

 

Thats the scary line about "Constructive Posession", Is having pipe, a pipe threader, and end caps found in every plumbing shop automatically a count of posessing bomb making materials?

 

It is if they decide to charge you, even in the case you have never attempted to make a pipe bomb.

 

I would like to see a ruling letter from the ATF on this, any takers?

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LoL! I am away for months and one of the 1st threads I read is yet another 922R scheme that attempts to dismiss popular convention.

 

My advise is to test your own theory! Simpley go to a large Gun Show with your rifle non-compliant, but with the bolt out, show it to one of the every handy BATF Agents and then opt him your legal theory. All good theories must be tested in real world applications to have any meaning and since you seem to be the only one that sees the logic of this one, that makes you the prime person to conduct this test!

 

Let us all know how it goes... :blues:

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"My advise is to test your own theory! Simpley go to a large Gun Show with your rifle non-compliant, but with the bolt out, show it to one of the every handy BATF Agents and then opt him your legal theory. All good theories must be tested in real world applications to have any meaning and since you seem to be the only one that sees the logic of this one, that makes you the prime person to conduct this test!"

 

 

After a bit of research, I think the person showing the ATF agent would be fine, as long as he did not "Possess" the parts needed to fully assemble the weapon into completed form.

 

It can't work any other way, you have a parts count, and all that matters is getting it below that count, for an assembled weapon to be compliant, remove the parts, and do not possess them, and its not even a complete weapon, let alone something that could violate 922R.

 

The key word however, is POSSESS.

 

 

So, to answer the OP's original question.

 

 

"Lets say there was an ATF agent at the range checking everyone's guns for 922r compliance....yes this is far fetched, but the setup is needed for my question.

 

For example purposes only, lets say my gun has 12 imported parts on it, three of which are the bolt and bolt carrier which also includes has the gas piston that is attached. Before the ATF agent gets to me, I need to be down to 10 foreign made parts to be in compliance with the law.

 

Can I simply remove the bolt carrier/bolt/gas piston from the gun and be compliant since the gun now only has 9 imported parts connected to it?"

 

 

NO, you cannot simply remove the parts and be compliant.

 

Because you would be posessing all the components needed on or about your person, to assemble a weapon, that is construed as constructive posession, and there have been rulings to uphold this interpretation of the law.

 

 

IF, on the other hand, you did not posess all the parts needed to assemble the weapon into a functional firearm, you should be legal.

 

 

Laws are not "Grey" which is the whole problem with rulings like "Constructive Posession", that is completely grey, and it makes the posessor guilty of a crime, in this case, assembly into a non compliant weapon, regarding 922R, even though the posessor has not yet comitted the offense of assembling them into a firearm. The government has nicely done you a favor, and ruled you have the intention, even though you haven't done so.

 

Sounds a bit like "The Minority Report", as they can mystically delve into your mind, and know you were going to commit the crime.

 

 

To simplify further.

 

All parts to assemble a non 922 compliant weapon in your posession = Illegal.

 

Not enough parts to assemble a non 922 compliant weapon in your posession = Legal.

 

And also to the OP, if you are going to ask questions like this, at least have the stones to stick around and bear the grief until its answered.

 

Was that really so hard?

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And also to the OP, if you are going to ask questions like this, at least have the stones to stick around and bear the grief until its answered.

 

Was that really so hard?

 

Stones? I've been sticking around and reading each new reply, I just have nothing further to say.

 

Yes, it was that easy.

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