Paulyski, I need some advice.

[Frosty 9]

Hello,

 

I have recently changed the stock on my S12. I changed it to the Tapco AR collapsible with Saw grip. My S12 is still unconverted. Reason being I held one at a local gun show and it felt very comfortable. Below is the new stock........

 

 

My S12 has 3 ports and they are all visible, they are a little small but the gun functions just fine.

 

Keep in mind that I am able to shoot 7/8's oz reloads all the time before the new stock.

 

I was running everything (reloads, factory 1oz loads and everything else) through the gun..........never any failures to eject. As soon as I put on the new stock that has the grip built into it would fire but almost eject and jam the fired shell into the top of the breech. When I put the factory stock back on all the problems went away.

 

I did this twice just thinking it was a fluke or something but as soon as I added the new stock back to failing to eject. Now it would not do it all the time, maybe once every magazine.

 

A friend of mine who weighs in at about 285 lbs can shoot it with the new stock and not have any FTE's....... But as soon as its my turn it goes back to FTE.

 

My guess is that the new stock is soaking up so much recoil that its causing the intermittent FTE. Yes, I have pulled in the stock as tight as possible and removed the rubber butt pad..........still the same FTE once a magazine or so.

 

 

I have wondered about drilling my ports ....but the gun runs perfect with the factory stock.

 

Drilling the ports seems a little excessive (since the gun runs perfect bone stock)......... but it is easier to reload and shoot with the new stock...............do you see my conundrum .

 

 

Best

Frosty

Edited December 24, 2010 by Frosty

[Paulyski 2,227]

Wow. I see my name at the top of the forum.

Hey bro.

 

What ammo were you using with the FTEs?

The reloads?

 

Anyhow, have you cheched the ports ever?

 

Your issue is odd, but I could see the slight difference in the angle of the stock & the fact that your pistol grip does somewhat change the dynamics of the gun making a very slight difference in how the forces are directed as the carrier trys to move back.

 

The fact that you say your much larger friend has no problems makes me think that him being able to hold the gun firmer may just be the difference.

 

I did most of the fixes before opening my personal gun's ports to 3/32.

 

Right before I did, I needed to keep a tight shoulder weld to make it cycle "reliably".

Also, it actually needed to "warm up" a mag or so before it would run well.

 

This was right on the borderline of being properly gassed.

The porting made it all perfect.

 

You can try the extractor slot fix, bolt & carrier polish/profile, polish your rails, & tune the extractor, which may all get you there.

However, once the ports are right, you will not believe the difference.

Then go out & shoot one handed all day long.

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=51183

[Bayoupiper 738]

Paulyski is an expert in gay sex remorse, not S-12 diagnostics!

 

 

 

 

[Paulyski 2,227]

Paulyski is an expert in gay sex remorse, not S-12 diagnostics!

 

 

 

 

I'm flattered

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Those Tapco stocks flex a lot and the pad absorbs energy that would be better put to use cycling the action. Remove the pad and pull the weapon into your shoulder tightly when firing. Report back....

[Paulyski 2,227]

Those Tapco stocks flex a lot and the pad absorbs energy that would be better put to use cycling the action. Remove the pad and pull the weapon into your shoulder tightly when firing. Report back....

also, everything makes a rather straight line from the barrel to one's shoulder with the factory stock, resulting in less diffusion of force.

 

I still like the idea of guns running without needing to be held right.

God forbid, a person may want need to reach over a wall, or around a corner & shoot one handed some time.

Edited December 24, 2010 by Paulyski

[Frosty 9]

The ammo I was using was Winchester 1oz factory loads. These same shells run all the time with the factory stock but FTE with the new stock. Remington bulk packs and Federal bulk packs go through with absolutely no problems.

 

Reloads have been 18.1 to 18.7 grains of TiteWAD and 7/8 oz and 1oz and up to 1 1/8. All run just fine with the factory stock.

The 1 oz and the 7/8 reloads give some trouble with the new stock.

 

I even tried Red Dot powder and switched primers......same FTE with the new stock but normal functioning with the factory stock.

 

As far as my ports I measured them when I first got them and they were .78 or .83, they are a mixture of sizes actually. But either way the gun ran everything from day one factory and reloads included.

 

 

Best

 

Frosty

Edited December 24, 2010 by Frosty

[Paulyski 2,227]

That winchester is just a touch too weak to run reliably in a stock gun.

(this is according to Tom Cole of Cadiz)

 

The old 4 port guns were a little different.

Edited December 24, 2010 by Paulyski

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Those Tapco stocks flex a lot and the pad absorbs energy that would be better put to use cycling the action. Remove the pad and pull the weapon into your shoulder tightly when firing. Report back....

also, everything makes a rather straight line from the barrel to one's shoulder with the factory stock, resulting in less diffusion of force.

 

I still like the idea of guns running without needing to be held right.

God forbid, a person may want need to reach over a wall, or around a corner & shoot one handed some time.

I agree, these weapons need work to be 100% with nearly any ammo. I can rest mine on my nuts and it doesn't fail It was no where near close to reliable with light stuff before I reworked it.

[harleypap 1]

I have the tapco stock on mine fte on 2 with low brass are you talking setting 1 or 2?

[Frosty 9]

Paulyski, I have already polished the bolt, hammer, rails, carrier underside.

 

I can even load on a closed bolt now with no problem. I am also running an MD Arms VPlug on setting 5 (open all the way).

 

You are probably right about the recooil dynamics changing with the stock and pistol grip.

 

Evil, I did remove the rubber pad, and it was the same FTE with one or two rounds per magazine. Sometimes 3 rounds at times.

 

Going back to the factory stock has seemed to always get rid of the FTE.

 

I agree the new stock does flex some and the sliding stock does have some play in it no matter the length setting.

 

I want to make something clear. It will fire. The carrier will recoil back but not far enough to knock out the fired shell. The shell is HALF ejected and the mouth of the shell is rammed into the top of the barrel.

 

Evil did you open up your ports?

Edited December 24, 2010 by Frosty

[Paulyski 2,227]

Yes he did.

[Bean.223 365]

Paulyski is an expert in gay sex remorse, not S-12 diagnostics!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pauly for advice?? whats the world coming to!!! :haha:

[Paulyski 2,227]

Paulyski is an expert in gay sex remorse, not S-12 diagnostics!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pauly for advice?? whats the world coming to!!! :haha:

Every time I see the top of the main forum I feel like I just found this on my ass.

 

[Frosty 9]

I think that I will just go back to bone stock configuration.

 

My own "I wanna make it different" caught my ass. Somethings you can manipulate, some you cannot. Live and learn.

 

Just like my Glocks never been touched. Totally stock and they are dependable......everytime.

 

Both of my S12's run perfect with everything I have loaded in them. Why mess with it when it is running just fine?

 

I really like the new stocks (I have two S12's so I have two of these tapco stocks........kinda sucks.....but I will use them on something else) they are comfortable.

 

I may someday open up the ports but they seem to be running just fine in BONE STOCK configuration.

 

I do have 2 MD Arms Flash hiders on the way.............that will look nice.

 

 

By the way Paulyski I did not mean for this much attention to be called upon you..............lighted hearted and in good nature as it maybe.

 

Best

 

Frosty

Edited December 25, 2010 by Frosty

[Paulyski 2,227]

 

By the way Paulyski I did not mean for this much attention to be called upon you..............lighted hearted and in good nature as it maybe.

 

Best

 

Frosty

Just friendly needling.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Paulyski, I have already polished the bolt, hammer, rails, carrier underside.

 

I can even load on a closed bolt now with no problem. I am also running an MD Arms VPlug on setting 5 (open all the way).

 

You are probably right about the recooil dynamics changing with the stock and pistol grip.

 

Evil, I did remove the rubber pad, and it was the same FTE with one or two rounds per magazine. Sometimes 3 rounds at times.

 

Going back to the factory stock has seemed to always get rid of the FTE.

 

I agree the new stock does flex some and the sliding stock does have some play in it no matter the length setting.

 

I want to make something clear. It will fire. The carrier will recoil back but not far enough to knock out the fired shell. The shell is HALF ejected and the mouth of the shell is rammed into the top of the barrel.

 

Evil did you open up your ports?

Yes, 4 @ .093"

 

JMO but I would modify that MD plug to be more 'open' instead of having such a narrow path for the gas to enter the block. I don't have one, but I think the aftermarket plugs look somewhat restrictive even on the most open setting. I use the stock plug.

[Parson Julabee Jones 32]

Mine is also unconverted, and out of the box, it was as faithful as a Collie dog. However, within a short time, I had it festooned with just about everything a body can hang upon an S12. And FTE's were commonplace. I started then, a regimen of removal and replacement of the various things I had added thereunto. Each time I removed something, it did better, and one day, it occurred to me that it had been some time since the gun had experienced a failure. So going out, I started a 20 round drum, and the gun failed repeatedly.

 

I cleaned the gun. It ran much better. I removed the TAPCO stock and it ran even better. So good, that I removed the stock stock and added the TAPCO back again. It ran okay then. But then came another day when I wanted to frolic with my S12, and once again, it began to exhibit failures to fire.

 

So....I removed my MDarms V-plug, and replaced the OEM plug. And now? Well, once again, it runs just fine. Its unfortunate that I plan to fool around with it later today....although I hope it continues to function properly, I'm not particularly sanguine about it.

 

And yeah, I had polished everything polishable, in fact with the exception of the flash hiders you're adding, my gun might almost be a carbon copy of yours (based upon your description). Well, I haven't as yet polished the lower portion of the chamber throat, but I figure to get that done today when I feel up to pushing through the snow to my shop.

 

Anyhow, with your permission, I'll be following your adventures as you deal with then dismiss this current conundrum.

 

Thanks....I am and remain sincerely yours,

 

PJJ

 

 

[Frosty 9]

PJJ,

 

Yes, mine is bone stock out of the box. The only thing I added was a MD Arms gas plug to both S12's. I never even tried the stock plug.

 

Well I did as I said I would. I have literally returned the original factory stock back to its proper place.........upon the gun. As my experience has measured so it will in no doubt be running back to normal.

 

 

 

Best

 

 

Frosty