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Paulyski and Evil..............I opened my ports.


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Hello,

 

Well I did it.

 

Knocked out the pins, one on top and the one on the bottom of the gas block.

 

Had the S12 in the barrel vise and knocked the gas block off with a very large flat punch.

 

This is a 3 port barrel.

 

My ports were as follows (just as I had suspected)...Out of all three ports only one would allow a 5/64 drill bit in.

The other two were only HALF WAY DRILLED into the barrel with a very small opening into the barrel itself almost 5/64.

It was a funnel shaped hole from the FACTORY!!

 

I drilled them all open to 5/64.

 

I then opened them up to 3/32.

 

I had to open up the gas block inlet. I did NOT get into the recess after the gas plug threads. I have seen others that have opened up their gas block inlets and they have cut into this recess. This to me is a big fat mistake. It just does no look right to me when others have done this.

 

I reassembled everything (including the Tapco stock with the grip that was giving me FTE's) and headed out with 150 rounds of factory and reloads combined.

 

I used a Factory 5 rounder as a baseline.

 

I loaded Federal 11/8 fed four rounds and jammed on the last round.........................that sinking feeling started.

I loaded Remington 11/8 fed and fired all five rounds no problems.

I loaded Winchester Universal 11/8 fed three rounds and jammed on the fourth round.

 

I stopped and pulled my receiver cover off and looked everything over...........no problems.

I pulled my carrier out and no problems.

 

I looked at my gas plug (MD Arms VPlug) setting.........................it was closed down one setting to #4.

I opened up the gas plug to setting #5.

 

The S12 then came alive and fed, fired and ejected everything out of the factory 5 round magazine.

I loaded up some of my low powered reloads. These are 7/8 oz with 17.3 grains of TiteWAD powder. They all fed, fired and ejected just fine. Normally they would have not even ejected with the NEW Tapco stock. With the ports opened up to 3/32 it was ejecting them two feet further than before the ports being opened up.

 

My rear trunnion is just fine. No metal deformation.

Yes, it has through time lost the paint from being hit by the bolt carrier. I have AK's that have the same level of carrier/trunnion contact. They are just fine.

 

I loaded up some 7/8 oz reloads with more powder in them 19.0 grains of TiteWAD. Huge difference.

Ejection was with more authority and very consistent in where it placed the empty hulls.

 

My gas system: Puck, Block and Gas plug were all clean when I started. I suspect that after 2 magazines (10 rounds) everything settled into place.

Yes, some may opine that I am still at the max setting on my gas plug.....BUT....it is now running with the NEW Tapco stock. When before it would FTE.

As I am sure that it will eventually be able to reduce the setting down to #4.

 

As I write this I just received TWO MD Arms Flash hiders.

As usual they are superb. Thank You Mike.

 

Thank You Paulyski and Evil.

 

 

 

Best

 

 

Frosty

Edited by Frosty
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Ugh, I'm going to have to give in and do this, with the light polishing and MD plug I can get about 97- 99% success rate with wallyworld fed rounds but I know my ports are only 5/64 and two of them are partially covered.

My gun will only eject the shells about 2 feet also.:ph34r:

Edited by Fumes
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Frosty,

I'm glad to have been of some help. Sounds like you had fun and walked away a proud man.... now where the hell is the video?

:unsure: LEMMEHE LEMMEHE!

 

When you said it was 'jamming' at first on setting 4, was it FTF or FTE?

 

Do it Fumes! If you open the ports.... it will run

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajOfy8fXJbA

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Great job Frosty......Did mine a few months ago and it makes a world of difference when tuning with either the gunfixr, md plug, or TAC Auto Plug. Have fun and start stock piling bulk birdshot for those mag dumps

 

J

:lolol: I think I have 1000 or so rounds of bulk ammo. It's nice to know that it was cheap, my weapon will run well with it, and it didn't cost much ;) As fast as I go through ammo, 100 rounds per minute, slugs and buckshot would break me.

Edited by evlblkwpnz
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Evil it was FTE on round 4.

I still have to open up the ports on S12 #2.

The flash hiders look exceptionally well made and they match color wise perfectly.

 

Fumes,

I was in the same spot as you. My S12's (I have Two S12's) ran 98-99% with anything I put in them. Reloads, Cheap Winchester Universal 1oz loads, Remington bulk packs, Federal bulk packs, Winchester bulk packs, Slugs, Buck shot, Estate bird shot (good stuff), Lellior and Bellot buck and slugs, Rio bird shot, Rio buck and slugs etc. Every once in a great while I would have a FTE.

 

All the birdshot for both guns HAD TO BE on Setting #5 MD Arms VPlug to run. So both guns are a little under gassed.

 

For the life of me I do not know how they both ran with their ports so small............but they did.

 

So for a long time I left them alone and I like the classic bird gun look anyway. A gun show comes to town and a gentlemen had an unconverted S12 but had a pistol grip and adjustable stock on it from Tapco. It was very comfortable to hold and easier than an unconverted S12 to a small degree.

 

I only experienced problems when I had installed this.....post-26540-0-63755200-1293635525_thumb.jpg

The reason I chose this is simple it is a purely screw on part. Plus its very comfortable. I have held a fully converted S12 by Tromix. It is nice but I like having a lot of clearance between the magazine and the trigger guard. I can get a good grip on the magazine if I need to.....that is just me though.

 

I can also engage the bolt hold open with my trigger finger as I bring the bolt back to prepare for another magazine insertion. I can do it with the factory stock but I have to adjust my grip just a little.

 

I only installed this on one S12 just to see how things would turn out. I immediately had FTE's up to 3 times in a 5 round factory magazine.

I knew it had to be the stock as it was the only thing I had changed. So as my previous thread pointed out for some advice and help I came to the same realization as you. I could let it be and sit on two stocks that cost me a total of $128 or "do the deed" as they say.

 

Deed is done and I am glad I did it.

Only after polishing everything and taking the angles off the hammer face and carrier bottom, not to mention polishing the rails too.

 

I will run more shot shells through this particular S12 with opened ports to give it the seal of approval. At least 200 more will satisfy me.

 

 

Best

 

 

Frosty

Edited by Frosty
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Forgot to mention...............................I can shoot it ONE handed now.

 

I wanted to see if I could do what Paulyski does.

 

I do have to keep a very firm grip on it though but I can do it.

 

I also tried to shoot it sideways. As if I was shooting around a corner. It worked but it needs to held firmly.

 

 

 

Best

 

 

Frosty

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is the bolt kissing the rear trunion with 3" 1 1/4 oz loads?

 

Yes,

 

Just as long as I turn down the gas on the plug. I have not tried any 1 1/4 oz loads yet. I am sure it would be fine.

Since it was trying to run on setting #4 with 7/8oz and 1oz loads with some success then it should be just fine.

 

That 1 1/4 load will produce more gas pressure so it will and should function the shotgun.

 

It may not be a "heavy load" to some but if it will run on a lower setting then all the better.

 

Where I live you find more 1oz and 1 1/8 oz shot shells for sale than any other.

 

The best part about these Saiga shotguns, is that you can easily tune what you are shooting so that it does not beat up the gun or your shoulder.

 

Best

 

 

Frosty

Edited by Frosty
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well, the bolt should NOT be kissing the rear trunion, especially with the light loads you seem to be running.

 

Id be careful if you havent even tried 1 1/4 oz 3" buckshot in it after upping your gas ports.

 

It sounds like its overgassed now, to me.

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is the bolt kissing the rear trunion with 3" 1 1/4 oz loads?

 

 

The best part about these Saiga shotguns, is that you can easily tune what you are shooting so that it does not beat up the gun or your shoulder.

 

Best

 

 

Frosty

 

That is why I mentioned about turning down the gas with the VPlug I have installed.

 

 

 

 

Best

 

Frosty

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put some lipstick or chalk on the rear trunion and fire the thing with 3" shells with the factory gas plug on setting one. if its kissing the rear trunion and leaving your marking product on the back of the bolt, its definately overgassed, and I hate to recommend doing it, but you probably should not shoot three inch shells, or get a buffer and install it.

 

the bolt is not supposed to make contact with the rear trunion in an AK pattern, and if it does from varying ammunitions, it is only supposed to just touch it every so often, not slam into it, or hit it every shot fired.

 

chances are, if you can fire low recoil rounds and the floor scraping birdshot 1 oz loads from walmart, its overgassed, and you should avoid the cannon rounds.

 

this is a russian combat shotgun. it was never intended to fire anything but stout loads. the lightest loads you should be cycling are federal 1 1/8oz walmart bulk pack.

 

cheap winchester and wolf shells just dont like to work usually. not enough oohmph to cycle the gun.

 

I see a lot of people around here lately gassing their guns up, and not even thinking about three inch shells and their rear trunion.

 

I dont post as much as I used to, but ask or look around. I know what Im talking about (well, most of the time). Even the folks that dont like me will admit it.I get a kick out of you new folks talking to me like you are instructing me. Its pretty funny.

 

Im glad you got your gun going, but remember what i said about the cannon rounds.

 

good luck and happy shooting!

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put some lipstick or chalk on the rear trunion and fire the thing with 3" shells with the factory gas plug on setting one. if its kissing the rear trunion and leaving your marking product on the back of the bolt, its definately overgassed, and I hate to recommend doing it, but you probably should not shoot three inch shells, or get a buffer and install it.

 

the bolt is not supposed to make contact with the rear trunion in an AK pattern, and if it does from varying ammunitions, it is only supposed to just touch it every so often, not slam into it, or hit it every shot fired.

 

chances are, if you can fire low recoil rounds and the floor scraping birdshot 1 oz loads from walmart, its overgassed, and you should avoid the cannon rounds.

 

this is a russian combat shotgun. it was never intended to fire anything but stout loads. the lightest loads you should be cycling are federal 1 1/8oz walmart bulk pack.

 

cheap winchester and wolf shells just dont like to work usually. not enough oohmph to cycle the gun.

 

I see a lot of people around here lately gassing their guns up, and not even thinking about three inch shells and their rear trunion.

 

I dont post as much as I used to, but ask or look around. I know what Im talking about (well, most of the time). Even the folks that dont like me will admit it.I get a kick out of you new folks talking to me like you are instructing me. Its pretty funny.

 

Im glad you got your gun going, but remember what i said about the cannon rounds.

 

good luck and happy shooting!

His gun with 3 ports at .093 has substantially less gas than yours with 4 at .075.

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what? dude, i have a 2001 with 3 ports, Im the original owner, never touched the fuckin thing, and a mandrel forged barrel on mine. some of my handloads would probably blow your newer gun up, and sure as shit shouldnt be fired down some winchester or mossberg junk pile without a +P spec barrel on it. Dont start with me Paul. In seven years here and working in the industry, I think I might know what Im talking about.

 

where you getting this four port shit from.(nevermind what makes you think you know what I have) that was a temporary fix the factory did for ONE MONTH about, and a lot of the distributors or retailers did without OKing it with the factory or importer first.

 

very few four port guns actually came from the factory that way..... FYI

 

 

if its kissing the rear trunion every shot, its overgassed. period.

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put some lipstick or chalk on the rear trunion and fire the thing with 3" shells with the factory gas plug on setting one. if its kissing the rear trunion and leaving your marking product on the back of the bolt, its definately overgassed, and I hate to recommend doing it, but you probably should not shoot three inch shells, or get a buffer and install it.

 

the bolt is not supposed to make contact with the rear trunion in an AK pattern, and if it does from varying ammunitions, it is only supposed to just touch it every so often, not slam into it, or hit it every shot fired.

 

chances are, if you can fire low recoil rounds and the floor scraping birdshot 1 oz loads from walmart, its overgassed, and you should avoid the cannon rounds.

 

this is a russian combat shotgun. it was never intended to fire anything but stout loads. the lightest loads you should be cycling are federal 1 1/8oz walmart bulk pack.

 

cheap winchester and wolf shells just dont like to work usually. not enough oohmph to cycle the gun.

 

I see a lot of people around here lately gassing their guns up, and not even thinking about three inch shells and their rear trunion.

 

I dont post as much as I used to, but ask or look around. I know what Im talking about (well, most of the time). Even the folks that dont like me will admit it.I get a kick out of you new folks talking to me like you are instructing me. Its pretty funny.

 

Im glad you got your gun going, but remember what i said about the cannon rounds.

 

good luck and happy shooting!

 

Thank you BVamp,

 

I will try the chalk and or lipstick method and see what is happening. That is a really good idea :smoke:.

 

I appreciate your advice. I need all I can get.

 

I need to make a correction about my function before I opened up my gas ports.

 

Once in a while would I have a failure to eject. I would have to say about 97%to 99% with all ammo. More often with my reloaded ammo.

 

NOTHING would eject on setting #1, slugs, heavy buck, or 3" magnums. Only setting #2 or #3 depending on the make of slug or heavy buck. So the gas was restricted somewhat.

 

So 100% function was there but only with the gas plug opened up past a point where it should have run just fine.

 

 

 

Best

 

Frosty

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Frosty, just check it. It probably is fine, but if you shoot like I do, and fire predominantly stout loads and 3", and you have a gas issue, it will screw the gun up over time.

 

like i said, it can touch it a little bit, but if its slamming into the rear trunion, that is a bad thing. in that case, just stick a buffer in it.

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what? dude, i have a 2001 with 3 ports, Im the original owner, never touched the fuckin thing, and a mandrel forged barrel on mine. some of my handloads would probably blow your newer gun up, and sure as shit shouldnt be fired down some winchester or mossberg junk pile without a +P spec barrel on it.

 

where you getting this four port shit from.(nevermind what makes you think you know what I have) that was a temporary fix the factory did for ONE MONTH about, and a lot of the distributors or retailers did without oking it with the factory or importer first.

 

very few four port guns actually came from the factory that way..... FYI

I thought you recently said you have fired over 12,000 rounds through yours without ever having touched anything?

 

Not trying to get into a pissing contest here, just going off the figures from the warranty repair center, which were posted to the forum in the past by your previous associate that you yourself agreed with.

 

I would love to go to Russia & speak spec with Mikail, but that's not in the budget. I go off of what I measure & see come around from the factory, & there seems to be a sever lack of consistency between guns.

 

I shoot a lot of 3" mag on setting 1 of my factory plug & don't eject too far, my trunnion's in tact with no noticable dings in it, just a light shadow of the rear of the bolt's shaft, but no imprints whatsoever & more importantly my carrier & pushrod are in great condition.

 

I've shot so much high brass that I wore down the tip of my Tapco disconnecter so thin, that a small piece separated creating a hanging shard that interfered with the FCG's proper functioning (I'll assume Tapco uses lousy steel compared to the Russians, but I haven't done a Rockwell test), but the carrier, trunnion & rod, are still good to go.

 

 

ETA;

NOTHING would eject on setting #1, slugs, heavy buck, or 3" magnums. Only setting #2 or #3 depending on the make of slug or heavy buck. So the gas was restricted somewhat.

I was there too when I first got mine, even after "break-in" & I had 3 unobstructed ports at approximately .080.

 

When it wouldn't reliably cycle 3" Remington Magnum 3" .00 buck on setting 1 of the factory plug & I had done all the other fixes, That's what sealed the deal for me.

Like I said, other than the very rare US mag induced issue, everything is tits on my personal gun.

 

Other's mileage may very, being as Russian inconsistency likely extends to raw materials & other areas of the manufacturing process.

Edited by Paulyski
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Frosty, just check it. It probably is fine, but if you shoot like I do, and fire predominantly stout loads and 3", and you have a gas issue, it will screw the gun up over time.

 

like i said, it can touch it a little bit, but if its slamming into the rear trunion, that is a bad thing. in that case, just stick a buffer in it.

 

Good deal,

 

I have looked and thought about getting a buffer for both of my S12's.

 

I seems like a good idea anyway. If it helps then all the better. Anything that will help is always appreciated.

 

I am off to reload some shot shells. I and a few friends are breaking some clays today.

 

Thanks guys.

 

 

Best

Frosty

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yeh....and I am still saying i havent touched anything in the gun, and its intentional. hell, I have a fairly uncommon gun, in that it came from the factory at 18 1/4" without threads. you can tell because when i first got it, the chroming showed on the muzzle.

 

however, i have dealt with many many of OTHER shotguns. in person, on the phone, email, this forum, cannot even count.

 

I just happen to like mine just the way it is. Ill get another one if i ever want to pistol grip one. I have a factory wood 308 stock on it, and a chaos piston. other than that, i havent even really CLEANED the damned thing....blame Bill Akins for that!

 

Im not sure what the problem is here, but Im not going there.

 

Just suggesting the dude checks his gun for overgassing.

 

ask the guys building the race guns about their guns. they overgas them intentionally to fire the light stuff and light slugs, and they TELL YOU not to shoot the heavy stuff in it.

 

these guns were never meant to fire 1oz light light loads. they dont even exist in europe. The Russians got pissed off when they changed to a military spec gas port arrangement (two ports) and the americans whined because they didnt function any more with the cheap crap loads we have here. They went to four ports VERY briefly, and then back to the three port arrangement after testing showed four ports is too much over time on the longer barreled guns with the military loads. The few four port guns that actually came from the factory (most out there with four ports, chances are it wasnt done by the factory) were only sent over the big pond to us because the americans were whining. And that is the actual real story about that whole ordeal a couple years ago. now that the factory has rearranged and the full staff has changed, i dont see why it cannot be told what ACTUALLY happened with that two and four port bullshit.

 

get a poly choke and crank it down if your gas ports and internals are in spec and you want to fire the crap shells and low recoil stuff, is my suggestion. If i do ever modify my personal weapon, it would be to permanently mount a poly choke on it for OAL of 18.5". the back pressure from a choke (which you should be using ANYWAY with birdshot) improves cycling with the light loads. Im wondering how many guns are overgassed out there because folks dont just put a choke on the damn thing for the cheap shells.

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Im not sure what the problem is here, but Im not going there.

 

Just suggesting the dude checks his gun for overgassing.

Nothing sinister I assure you.

 

I've been working on formulas to get the guns running optimally with the widest range of ammunition practical. I plan on making an SBS slowly & adjust it to differing barrel lengths, incrementally. including shortening the gas systems & going from there step by step, while slowly making adjustments along the way so I can have a solid formula to work with in the future.

 

Also, ideas on a few other issues to increase range of ammos usable, by addressing a couple key areas of failure to eliminate those issues.

It will be a long process, but it is rather intriguing to me I guess.

 

I'm still waiting for that one guy to come around and tell me his gun cycles winchester value pack on setting 1 & it's not overgassed, because that's how it came from the factory though. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

ask the guys building the race guns about their guns. they overgas them intentionally to fire the light stuff and light slugs, and they TELL YOU not to shoot the heavy stuff in it.

I couldn't agree with you more. to achieve the least amount of recoil they have to use reduced power springs in addition to larger ports & moving the gas system back & all their mid barrel comps. The balance is broken. There is a balance out there from what I've found. Race guns are like thoroughbred horses, fragile. However, gas CAN be tuned down if the guy didn't screw up while bringing the gas up, meaning extending the gas block's hole toward the breech & beyond the end of the gas plug, thus rendering whichever gas plug unable to regulate the gas properly.

 

 

And that is the actual real story about that whole ordeal a couple years ago. now that the factory has rearranged and the full staff has changed, i dont see why it cannot be told what ACTUALLY happened with that two and four port bullshit.

 

Customer demand won out I guess.

However, it does create a whole new American market & spark innovation for Americans to solve the various issues, which may be looked upon as a good thing, I suppose.

Edited by Paulyski
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I'm a new guy with a saiga. After reading about drilling out the ports, I'm wondering. What would be the issue if you only drilled out some of the ports. Say two instead of three? I think this would help avoid going too far and creating problems. What do you thihk?

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I'm a new guy with a saiga. After reading about drilling out the ports, I'm wondering. What would be the issue if you only drilled out some of the ports. Say two instead of three? I think this would help avoid going too far and creating problems. What do you thihk?

 

Have you polished everything?

Have you used a FACTORY magazine as a baseline for all your function testing?

Does it run in bone stock factory condition?

 

I ask this as it all NEEDS to be done to make sure you have ruled out everything before you drill ,........."do the deed".

 

 

I had personally thought of doing this myself.

 

I think it would be just fine. You could incrementally work your way up to full functionality.

 

Only thing is you would have to go through the entire process for each port or only twice if you drill only two at the beginning.

 

It is mainly how many times do you want to go through all that. As far I am concerned I would not mind it. I am a tinkerer at heart. As are many here on this board.

 

 

 

Best

 

Frosty

Edited by Frosty
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Frosty,

 

I noticed something about your "lite" loads. You stated they had 17.3 grains of TiteWAD and then you bumped it up to 19.0 grains. I bet the shells ejected with more authority! Depending on the WAD and hull that is a lot more pressure being generated. For example (published data):

 

7/8 oz. lead shot

Win Hull

Same primer

Same WAD

Titewad 17.0 grains: 1194fps, 7800psi

Titewad 19.5 grains: 1327fps, 10,600psi

 

I bet the gun came "alive," the PSI increase is about 25%. As you know the safe limit is 11,500 psi. I'd try that 19.0 grain load on the next restrictive gas setting for reliability and then recheck if the trunnion is still kissing anything.

 

FWIW my gun cycles 1oz loads at 1414fps and 7600psi on Gunfixer's -1 shouldered, +1 off shoulder.

 

Shoot safe my friend.

 

 

 

"The S12 then came alive and fed, fired and ejected everything out of the factory 5 round magazine.

I loaded up some of my low powered reloads. These are 7/8 oz with 17.3 grains of TiteWAD powder. They all fed, fired and ejected just fine. Normally they would have not even ejected with the NEW Tapco stock. With the ports opened up to 3/32 it was ejecting them two feet further than before the ports being opened up.

 

I loaded up some 7/8 oz reloads with more powder in them 19.0 grains of TiteWAD. Huge difference.

Ejection was with more authority and very consistent in where it placed the empty hulls.

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Frosty,

 

I noticed something about your "lite" loads. You stated they had 17.3 grains of TiteWAD and then you bumped it up to 19.0 grains. I bet the shells ejected with more authority! Depending on the WAD and hull that is a lot more pressure being generated. For example (published data):

 

7/8 oz. lead shot

Win Hull

Same primer

Same WAD

Titewad 17.0 grains: 1194fps, 7800psi

Titewad 19.5 grains: 1327fps, 10,600psi

 

I bet the gun came "alive," the PSI increase is about 25%. As you know the safe limit is 11,500 psi. I'd try that 19.0 grain load on the next restrictive gas setting for reliability and then recheck if the trunnion is still kissing anything.

 

FWIW my gun cycles 1oz loads at 1414fps and 7600psi on Gunfixer's -1 shouldered, +1 off shoulder.

 

Shoot safe my friend.

 

 

 

"The S12 then came alive and fed, fired and ejected everything out of the factory 5 round magazine.

I loaded up some of my low powered reloads. These are 7/8 oz with 17.3 grains of TiteWAD powder. They all fed, fired and ejected just fine. Normally they would have not even ejected with the NEW Tapco stock. With the ports opened up to 3/32 it was ejecting them two feet further than before the ports being opened up.

 

I loaded up some 7/8 oz reloads with more powder in them 19.0 grains of TiteWAD. Huge difference.

Ejection was with more authority and very consistent in where it placed the empty hulls.

 

Yes,

I completely agree. My "lite" loads :lolol: do have some oomph to them at the 19.0 grain level with TiteWAD. I only loaded about 50 of them trying to see if my S12's would run with that load of 7/8 oz and the new stock, as it was giving me fits of FTE. It was a test batch that is all.

 

The published data you posted is the same I used to stay within my reloading parameters using TiteWAD. It is now my favorite powder but I would like to try Clays next. Do you have any experience with Clays?

 

You are right the pressure increase is quick and high. I rarely shoot heavy loads of 1 1/4 or even to some a lite load of 1 1/8 oz. I practically never shoot buck or slugs. Most of my shot gunning 99% of the time is shooting clays.... (which I love).

 

I am going probably have a standard reload of 17.5 to 17.8 of TiteWAD and 7/8 or 1 oz of #8 or #9shot. I have been and will be using Cheddite primers.

 

Thank you for pointing out what you did. Does not hurt to remind anyone to be safe.

 

 

 

Best

 

Frosty

Edited by Frosty
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FWIW my gun cycles 1oz loads at 1414fps and 7600psi on Gunfixer's -1 shouldered, +1 off shoulder.

 

Shoot safe my friend.

 

 

What powder, wad, hull and primer are you using for that load?

 

 

Best

 

Frosty

Edited by Frosty
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if the gun is now overgassed with ports drilled out simply install a $10 recoil buffer,job done.now you have a fun gun that shoots cheap birdshot for plinking and is reliable and fun and cheap to go out and play,or shoot 00 buck and slugs for wet work.best of both worlds.NOBODY likes a firearm that has FTE problems.

Edited by bigmegina
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