What is the ideal way to keep the Saiga loaded?

[TwentyNizzo 66]

Assuming you would like to use the S12 for home defense. Is it best to keep the magazine loaded to capacity with the bolt locked back? This comes back again to the topic of keeping springs compressed for long periods of time. I'm assuming the factory spring is very durable and wouldn't have any issues with cracking, etc.

 

Or is it better to do a fully loaded magazine on a closed bolt with safety off? Full magazine plus one in the chamber safety on?

 

My inclination would be towards the first option with the bolt locked back. No round deformation to deal with, just release the charging handle and go. I did have one time at the range though where I inserted a magazine, charged the bolt carrier, aimed, pulled the trigger and click. I got a sick feeling in my stomach. Checked the chamber and it was empty! The round had failed to strip off. I don't know if the mag wasn't seated properly or what, but it had me thinking. There definitely seems to be some advantage to having a round in the chamber from the start.

[Doug Hartley 526]

Probably the most important consideration to me would be who would have access to the gun. I know a guy who keeps his Saiga standing in a corner empty with a loaded mag on a high shelf near by. In a high crime area with no children in the house, cocked and locked might be the way to store your Saiga. If you have high quality shells in the gun, deformation should not be a problem but having a round in the chamber at least the first one will go off. 12 round mag downloaded 2 rounds, chamber empty, bolt closed, safety off would be my choice. Make sure no matter how you keep your gun you know how to get it in to action quick. Practice at the range starting in your stored mode and get good with it. You should be able to do it with your eyes closed in a dark place. Muscle memory is your friend because WTSHTF your mind will be busy with other things.

 

Doug

[DogMan 2,343]

Normally I would say leave the bolt held back. But in your case I think you really have to get to the bottom of why you had that one incident at the range or you're not going to have much confidence in your gun in a HD situation even if you start with one in the chamber. There was a reason that happened and if it were me I would try to replicate it and eliminate whatever the issue was for my own peace of mind.

[RichardC1967 81]

I keep mine bolt opened, next to the bed with a 5 rd mag of 00 buck and a 10 rd mag of Federal Wal-Mart brand within easy reach.. my bedroom is all the way in the back of the house, so if someone kicks in the door I have time to do what I gotta do.My current neighborhood isn't a bad place to live like my previous one was when I didn't even own a gun..

I

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

It will depend upon your state of course, and in many cases even your local or county level authorities, but I would also consider what type of magazine to use if I were you. Even in a lot of states with castle doctrine, there may not be civil immunity, or the decision on whether to call a shooting justified or not can lie with your local police or sheriff's department.

 

Last thing you want to do is "slay" some guy with a "20 round high capacity military style drum magazine AK-47 home-modified assault shotgun" in a place where the local sheriff gets to decide if your shooting is justified or not. It just doesn't look good. But of course in your jurisdiction you may very well be free to stop a home invader with a Howitzer so the above opinion may be worthless to you.

 

As for keeping it around the house? I'd say if there are no children around, loaded with a 5 round factory magazine, one in the chamber, safety on. I would say 5 round factory magazine not only for legal reasons, but the fact that of all S-12 magazines you can safely that Izzy magazines are the most reliable and issues with function will likely be with your gun. If you got the coin for an Izzy 8 get that instead.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Classy Kalashnikov

[YOT 3,743]

Very valid consideration, Classy. That's the way I'm is set for that exact reason.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

Normally I would say leave the bolt held back. But in your case I think you really have to get to the bottom of why you had that one incident at the range or you're not going to have much confidence in your gun in a HD situation even if you start with one in the chamber. There was a reason that happened and if it were me I would try to replicate it and eliminate whatever the issue was for my own peace of mind.

 

Huge +1 on this.

 

 

Even if you kept one in the chamber, and were "guaranteed" that one shot to fire......who's to say the bolt would strip the next round, given what happened at the range? Figuring that problem out would be my #1 priority, if I were going to count on a gun to potentially save my life, or the life of loved ones.

[Paulyski 2,227]

I keep one chambered with a slug on top to prevent deformation.

 

When I get to where I shoot, I always dump what I had loaded up at home as my first dump & I've never failed to clean out the Russian 8 HD mag.

[Parson Julabee Jones 32]

I store my S12 during the day, in the gun safe with bolt closed, no magazine, no round in the chamber. At night however, I place the gun beside the bed with a 10 round magazine, open bolt. I figure the daily alternating open/closed bolt will do more for the spring's longevity than most any other way.

 

And I fully grasp the point about the legal responsibility and culpability of a shooting rising with the round count in the magazine. But I have other guns with 7 or 8 rounds in the magazine (nor do I leave a round in the chamber on those), and I'd feel as if I were cheating myself to have fewer rounds than that in my Saiga.

 

It seems to me, just from reading and knowing a few HD guys, that if it should happen that you got into such a situation that LEO's would have any reason to count your guns, AND YOUR AMMO, you'd likely end up on the front page of the local (and maybe state) paper as a critter possessing very little in the way of redeeming value and no virtue. The headline "TEN EVIL BLACK GUNS (assault weapons) AND 13,000 ROUNDS OF AMMO SEIZED FROM POTENTIAL VIGILANTE AND MILITIA WANNABE", is what newspaper reporters' dreams are made of. I think that when our collections get bigger than one or two guns, and our stockpiles of ammo go over a few hundred rounds, we're taking a good deal more liability when shooting bad guys, warranted or not.

 

That's my observation and opinion, and should be taken with a grain of salt and a healthy dose of skepticism....

 

Parson Julabee Jones

[TwentyNizzo 66]

Normally I would say leave the bolt held back. But in your case I think you really have to get to the bottom of why you had that one incident at the range or you're not going to have much confidence in your gun in a HD situation even if you start with one in the chamber. There was a reason that happened and if it were me I would try to replicate it and eliminate whatever the issue was for my own peace of mind.

 

Huge +1 on this.

 

 

Even if you kept one in the chamber, and were "guaranteed" that one shot to fire......who's to say the bolt would strip the next round, given what happened at the range? Figuring that problem out would be my #1 priority, if I were going to count on a gun to potentially save my life, or the life of loved ones.

 

I'm suspecting that the mag wasn't fully seated in the shotgun somehow. It was the factory 5 rd mag with birdshot.

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

And I fully grasp the point about the legal responsibility and culpability of a shooting rising with the round count in the magazine. But I have other guns with 7 or 8 rounds in the magazine (nor do I leave a round in the chamber on those), and I'd feel as if I were cheating myself to have fewer rounds than that in my Saiga.

 

I understand what you're getting at. To clarify, think of the real definition of "high capacity" and not in the legal sense. For example, a pump shotgun will have a 5-8 round magazine, your typical 9mm may have 13-17 rounds, etc. The way I look at the Saiga is it was designed to be used with 8 round magazines, and comes imported with 5 round magazines.

 

Personally, when it comes to HD guns, I would say stick to within the parameters of how the weapon was designed. Police departments do the same thing, for example they will usually not allow any officer to carry a modified gun and they will typically stick to modern, standard design JHPs to eliminate the extra liability.

 

If your gun is designed for use with X round magazines, or has a fixed X round magazine, then it is simply being used as intended. Whether it's a Saiga with a 5/8, a Remmy with a 7 round tube mag, 9mm semi-auto with a 15rd magazine, etc.

 

Basically i would simply say it's a bad idea to have your HD guns stuffed with big drums or exotic ammo, etc.

[TwentyNizzo 66]

And I fully grasp the point about the legal responsibility and culpability of a shooting rising with the round count in the magazine. But I have other guns with 7 or 8 rounds in the magazine (nor do I leave a round in the chamber on those), and I'd feel as if I were cheating myself to have fewer rounds than that in my Saiga.

 

I understand what you're getting at. To clarify, think of the real definition of "high capacity" and not in the legal sense. For example, a pump shotgun will have a 5-8 round magazine, your typical 9mm may have 13-17 rounds, etc. The way I look at the Saiga is it was designed to be used with 8 round magazines, and comes imported with 5 round magazines.

 

Personally, when it comes to HD guns, I would say stick to within the parameters of how the weapon was designed. Police departments do the same thing, for example they will usually not allow any officer to carry a modified gun and they will typically stick to modern, standard design JHPs to eliminate the extra liability.

 

If your gun is designed for use with X round magazines, or has a fixed X round magazine, then it is simply being used as intended. Whether it's a Saiga with a 5/8, a Remmy with a 7 round tube mag, 9mm semi-auto with a 15rd magazine, etc.

 

Basically i would simply say it's a bad idea to have your HD guns stuffed with big drums or exotic ammo, etc.

 

Do you think there are any implications for using the factory 8 rounder since it cannot be imported with the shotgun?

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

Do you think there are any implications for using the factory 8 rounder since it cannot be imported with the shotgun?

 

It's very subjective so my opinion means little, but I would say that there are likely no implications to using an 8 round magazine. It is the magazine the gun was originally designed for, and the capacity is no greater than many standard, main stream shotguns marketed for home defense from Remington or Mossberg.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

And I fully grasp the point about the legal responsibility and culpability of a shooting rising with the round count in the magazine. But I have other guns with 7 or 8 rounds in the magazine (nor do I leave a round in the chamber on those), and I'd feel as if I were cheating myself to have fewer rounds than that in my Saiga.

 

I understand what you're getting at. To clarify, think of the real definition of "high capacity" and not in the legal sense. For example, a pump shotgun will have a 5-8 round magazine, your typical 9mm may have 13-17 rounds, etc. The way I look at the Saiga is it was designed to be used with 8 round magazines, and comes imported with 5 round magazines.

 

Personally, when it comes to HD guns, I would say stick to within the parameters of how the weapon was designed. Police departments do the same thing, for example they will usually not allow any officer to carry a modified gun and they will typically stick to modern, standard design JHPs to eliminate the extra liability.

 

If your gun is designed for use with X round magazines, or has a fixed X round magazine, then it is simply being used as intended. Whether it's a Saiga with a 5/8, a Remmy with a 7 round tube mag, 9mm semi-auto with a 15rd magazine, etc.

 

Basically i would simply say it's a bad idea to have your HD guns stuffed with big drums or exotic ammo, etc.

 

I agree.

 

I said something similar, in another thread awhile back, and got flak from some people. No worries, though. At the end of the day, no matter what anyone on the internet says, it's going to be your ass in the situation if ever (God forbid) you have to pull the trigger on someone to save your life.

 

Whoever it was that was giving me flak (I honestly can't remember who it was), seemed to be under the impression that since I didn't plan on using any "evil" guns for HD, meant that I simply wouldn't use said "evil" gun for HD. Not the case. If it came down to it, and all I had in reach was an S12 loaded with as many slugs as possible, lasers, a Chaos Porcupine on the muzzle and a decal on the handguard that said "I kill for fun"......I'd use it without hesitation. Because as they saying goes; "I'd rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6".

 

All of that being said, I still think it's in anyone's best interest to at least think about what they're using for HD, and what possible legal bullshit some cocksucker attorney can use against you. You may come off as "cool" on the internet, for saying "Fuck it. I got a .50BMG bolted to the side of my bed frame, for HD purposes!"..........but if you ever have to actually use it in an HD sitation.......you'll be burned alive in the court system .

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, back on topic..........If I were to use an S12 for HD, I'd personally leave the bolt locked back. If you're in a living situation where you can leave it leaned up near you bed, all you'd have to do is give the buttstock a bump on the ground and it will release the bolt!

 

I like Pauly's idea, too; leaving a slug on top of the mag to prevent deformation on a close bolt. Hadn't even thought of that. Good idea.

[Parson Julabee Jones 32]

"Basically i would simply say it's a bad idea to have your HD guns stuffed with big drums or exotic ammo, etc."

 

Yeah, all other things being equal, and given the highly negative and litigious nature of modern law enforcement tempered with the popularly perceived evil nature of assault weapons-like guns....I expect you're right.

 

But of course, not all things are equal, and some parts of the country are much more forgiving than others. In this area of the country, known to be inhabited by large numbers of red-necks, generally speaking, the law leans toward the intended victim, who killed the intruder in justified self-defense, etc.

 

However, even that evenhanded tolerance is negated if you SHOOT THE GUY IN THE BACK SEVERAL TIMES. One is advised to do his home defense diligence in the house, and with the intruder/bad guy facing you, as opposed to shot in the back, while running away and a quarter mile from your house.

 

PJJ

 

 

 

 

[DogMan 2,343]

I'm not sure but I think I've said this before on this forum. If you use any legal firearm in a legitimate self defense situation it doesn't matter about round count, black paint, or flying a jolly roger pirate flag on the end of the barrel. There is not a Godamned thing anybody can do to you. Yeah, they may want to, and they may try but they have absolutely no legal standing whatsoever. Now, if you are worried that it may be a questionable shooting on your part then maybe you have something to worry about.

[Skitterfish 10]

I hope that if I ever have to use any of my many firearms to defend my family that I get a jury of my "peers" instead of a jury of sheep.

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

All of that being said, I still think it's in anyone's best interest to at least think about what they're using for HD, and what possible legal bullshit some cocksucker attorney can use against you. You may come off as "cool" on the internet, for saying "Fuck it. I got a .50BMG bolted to the side of my bed frame, for HD purposes!"..........but if you ever have to actually use it in an HD sitation.......you'll be burned alive in the court system .

 

Yes, speaking of which, I have also seen a few things from some "experts" (I forget who, think it was Ayoob?) saying that another thing that is not advisable are those cool "gun show signs" you know the ones with a riddled silhouette saying "nothing here is worth dying for" or "never mind the dog, beware of owner" which a lot of times people just buy/get as a gag gift or something. But not realizing, that some attorneys/prosecutors can/have tried to use that as evidence that the guy was "looking for a fight"

 

Of course once again it all depends highly on a million variables

[msrdiver 42]

I've spoken with several LEO's and private security guards about defensive shooting situations in which they've been involved. Only one had been in a situation in which all his rounds were fired. Each person said most shootings end with a few shots being fired and then the bad guy (BG) flees or falls down.

 

Later, I served on the Grand Jury and tried to get the most information about shooting incidents as possible. Sure enough, in most cases, a few shots were fired and if the BG was hit he laid down and surrendered crying out for an ambulance. As time went by I found out that many of the BG guns only had a few rounds in them.

 

Aside from the legality and moral issues of owning a stolen gun, I sure am impressed with their street value. On the street for under $50 you could buy a Berretta 92 with 4 rounds or a S&W wheel gun with two rounds. Cabela's just can not compete wit da street. I detest theft and the fact that I'd be committing a felony has convinced me not to start my own BUY-BACK-PROGRAM. I'd need a whole other safe or three

 

So, if your shot shell has 8 or more projectiles and you have 5 in your gun, you should be OK against most thugs breaking into your home. If in doubt, keep a second magazine nearby.

 

Lastly, "when seconds count, the police are minutes away." So I say, half heartedly, go ahead and keep a 10 rounder in thar; you'll have plenty time to swap back the empty 5 rounder.

[DogMan 2,343]

All of that being said, I still think it's in anyone's best interest to at least think about what they're using for HD, and what possible legal bullshit some cocksucker attorney can use against you. You may come off as "cool" on the internet, for saying "Fuck it. I got a .50BMG bolted to the side of my bed frame, for HD purposes!"..........but if you ever have to actually use it in an HD sitation.......you'll be burned alive in the court system .

 

Yes, speaking of which, I have also seen a few things from some "experts" (I forget who, think it was Ayoob?) saying that another thing that is not advisable are those cool "gun show signs" you know the ones with a riddled silhouette saying "nothing here is worth dying for" or "never mind the dog, beware of owner" which a lot of times people just buy/get as a gag gift or something. But not realizing, that some attorneys/prosecutors can/have tried to use that as evidence that the guy was "looking for a fight"

 

Of course once again it all depends highly on a million variables

 

On the other hand, those signs could keep you from ever having to pull the trigger on someone, which is what they are designed to do. I have both of those signs you mentioned and there is at least one occasion where those signs may have saved two teenager's lives last summer. They had been lost in the woods all day and finally found my place and wanted water. They saw the sign about nothing in here worth dying for and decided not to climb the gate when they could not get anyone's attention (this is what they told me). I came out of my shop and saw them outside the gate. If they had been inside the 6 foot fence they could have come close to getting shot. Those signs protected me as much as them. I'm just saying I can't spend too much time worrying about all the "what ifs".

[Gibbles 23]

I bought some rounds that had a reinforced end thinking I would be GTG for closed bolt storage

 

I checked it after two weeks and it still fed that first round, two months, FTF.

 

Only part I don't like about open bolt storage, if it falls over, it will chamber the round about 50% of the time.

 

Storage with the safety half way up to clear the bolt still blocks the trigger though.

[AtlSaiga 25]

My S12 sits with a loaded mag and the bolt locked back - drop the bolt and hope you don't need to use it. I also don't have little ones running around. When it comes to security, there is no time for safes, keypads, dials, keys or locks.

 

I totally agree with the thread consensus, its probably best to keep HD tools simple and "normal." pulsing green lasers and the like, while awesome, are best saved for the safe queens.

Edited December 30, 2010 by AtlSaiga

[xbmxxx 5]

Ill leave my Saiga loaded with an open bolt hanging on the closet wall, and a Hipoint 9mm on my headboard loaded with hollows.

[YOT 3,743]

Where I work we are taught to use the acronym "SAFE".

 

S-Safety on a safe and clear weapon.

A-Action closed on a known empty chamber.

F-Five rounds in a box type magazine inserted into the weapon.

E-Erect or upright in the rack.

 

This is perfect for a weapon like an AK, Saiga, or AR that is apt to slam-fire if the chamber is left open with a magazine in the weapon, and the weapon is accidentally dropped or knocked over. I definitely don't want to take the chance of a slam-fire or negligent discharge in my own home because of wrongly thinking that I wouldn't have time to charge the gun in the event I need to use it.

 

ETA: That would be a good way of explaining the condition of your weapon in a court of law in the aftermath of actually using it, too. Also, if you were to have a ND or slam-fire and that round killed someone, you WILL have to explain it and defend yourself in court.

Edited February 3, 2011 by Yeoldetool