gunsrfun4me 0 Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 I bought a 223 Saiga and had the Conversion done by a very good company,but unfortunately the gun is not reliable. The cartridge gets pinched sideways at an angle by the bolt face at least 1 out of 10 times. I am using several different Israeli Steel Galil magazines that work just fine in my inexpensive Galil rifle made by Century. I would like to use those same steel mags and not have to buy Orlite mags. Please help me learn by answering some questions: 1. Is this a common problem with Saiga / Galil Conversions ? 2. What causes this problem? 3. What are all the options to fix it? 4. Can this gun ever be made into a super reliable weapon, or do these 223 conversions never get as reliable as the 7.62x39 guns? My 7.62x39 rifle has never ever jammed. 5. Does everyone have to install a "Bullet Guide" to make a 223 Saiga rifle work reliably,or are those only needed to let the gun use Orlite Magazines? I would prefer to use the Steel mags I already have a bunch of,but I don't mind paying more for mags that will make this gun work reliably. 6. Are Israeli steel magazines the best or are there any other high capacity alternatives besides Orlite? 7. What about those Tapco Galil Mags, do you guys think that would fix it or is this a bigger problem? 8. Are there any other Steel Magazine alternatives? Thanks in advance for any helpful replys Quote Link to post Share on other sites
antinwo 57 Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 Does it do it with all of your mags? Plastic or metal mags? I would start out by looking at the feed lips if running metal. Bent/smashed feed lips can cause problems. I have had a couple of cheap ass metal mags for my bushmaster and I have had the damn cartridge wedged sideways up on top of the bolt carrier before. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 (edited) 5. Does everyone have to install a "Bullet Guide" to make a 223 Saiga rifle work reliably,or are those only needed to let the gun use Orlite Magazines? I would prefer to use the Steel mags I already have a bunch of,but I don't mind paying more for mags that will make this gun work reliably. Yes you need a bullet guide to lift the front of the bullet to get into the chamber.. The Century WASR-2 and WASR-3 have the bullet guide in them.. as most standard AK47's do also.. The other option is to buy US made mags.. but they are hit or miss also.. and report back after you put that in.. Albert Edited January 1, 2011 by YWHIC 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vulcan16 971 Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 No bullet guide and I only use Surefire mags. Never had a FTF/FTE with them. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 (edited) It sounds like you don't have a bullet guide. Both the Galil steel mags and the Orlites will require one in order to work properly. My .223 Saiga is very reliable with one installed, and has yet to have a jam of any sort. As for what other magazines will work, please see this thread: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=61281&view=findpost&p=584861 I would steer clear of U.S.-made mags, none of which are milspec or have steel reinforcement in the lockup areas. The may feed fine at the range, but I wouldn't trust my life to something so flimsy. You are on the right track with the steel Galil mags. Edited January 1, 2011 by Jim Digriz 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Maurice Middleton 4 Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 I'm w/ GEO, I don't have a bullet guide in my .223 or my x39 and I run Surefire mags with zero problems. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted January 1, 2011 Report Share Posted January 1, 2011 Yes.. Surefires don't need a bullet guide.. but the OP has 223 steel mags.. Yes. JimD is also correct. +1 Al Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hemi348 1 Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 The feed ramp is not your first problem. The bolt is riding over the top of the round instead of stripping the back of the round. The back of the magazine needs to sit higher in the magwell. It wouldn't matter if you have a feed ramp or not, the bolt will continue to slam into the middle of the next round and cause this jam. Now after you get the rifle to properly strip the back of the next round you will need a feed ramp to keep the next round from slamming into the bottom of the chamber. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 The feed ramp is not your first problem. The bolt is riding over the top of the round instead of stripping the back of the round. The back of the magazine needs to sit higher in the magwell. It wouldn't matter if you have a feed ramp or not, the bolt will continue to slam into the middle of the next round and cause this jam. Now after you get the rifle to properly strip the back of the next round you will need a feed ramp to keep the next round from slamming into the bottom of the chamber. Do the mags sit into the magwell all the way?? Doe the mag snag on the 'intradiction tab' and not snap in.?? Bottom photos would help maybe.. Al Quote Link to post Share on other sites
leadslinger 37 Posted January 2, 2011 Report Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) i think the cheapest thing to do first would be to install a bullet guide...vey easy to do.... You will need it anyways and if you still decide to go with a surefire mag then you can trim the mag to work...also not a big mod to do. then look at how the mag sits if the problem persists. http://www.dinzagarms.com/downloads/223_mag_options.pdf Edited January 2, 2011 by leadslinger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eleutheros 0 Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 I bought a 223 Saiga and had the Conversion done by a very good company,but unfortunately the gun is not reliable. The cartridge gets pinched sideways at an angle by the bolt face at least 1 out of 10 times. I am using several different Israeli Steel Galil magazines that work just fine in my inexpensive Galil rifle made by Century. I would like to use those same steel mags and not have to buy Orlite mags. Please help me learn by answering some questions: 1. Is this a common problem with Saiga / Galil Conversions ? 2. What causes this problem? 3. What are all the options to fix it? 4. Can this gun ever be made into a super reliable weapon, or do these 223 conversions never get as reliable as the 7.62x39 guns? My 7.62x39 rifle has never ever jammed. 5. Does everyone have to install a "Bullet Guide" to make a 223 Saiga rifle work reliably,or are those only needed to let the gun use Orlite Magazines? I would prefer to use the Steel mags I already have a bunch of,but I don't mind paying more for mags that will make this gun work reliably. You absolutely must have a bullet guide to use Galil mags in a Saiga .223. The company that did your conversion failed to install the part that is indispensable for your rifle to use military mags. The factory mag and the Surefire mag don't need one because they have their own bullet guide molded on the mag. Do nothing else but buy and install Dinzag's bullet guide designed specifically for the Saiga .223 and your problem will be solved. There are two types available, depending on the trunnion (flat or rounded). Get the bullet guide kit that fits the shape of your rifle's trunnion (either 223FTK or 223RTK). http://www.dinzagarms.com/saiga_223/saiga_223.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bohound 281 Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 (edited) I don't know... I read this topic a bit this morning, and I was kind of interested. I went to the range... And had the same issue with one of my Galil steel mags. A round did not feed correctly, causing a jam. I cleared it and it didn't happen again. It did not happen with my modified (to work with my BG) Surefire, nor with my Tapco Galil mag (That I have been beating mercilessly-trying to find a fail point). I noticed also when I locked the steel Galil back in after clearing the malfunction that it was one of the tighter fitting ones in my magwell. I'll pay attention to it in the future, but I'm not sure what the feed issue was and if it's related. It was only one malfunction, and other steel Galils fed flawlessly today. It was a good day of shoosting. I'll post a pic of my mangled round if you'd like, but it looks the same as yours OP. Edited January 3, 2011 by bohound Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 (edited) I don't know... I read this topic a bit this morning, and I was kind of interested. I went to the range... And had the same issue with one of my Galil steel mags. A round did not feed correctly, causing a jam. I cleared it and it didn't happen again. It did not happen with my modified (to work with my BG) Surefire, nor with my Tapco Galil mag (That I have been beating mercilessly-trying to find a fail point). I noticed also when I locked the steel Galil back in after clearing the malfunction that it was one of the tighter fitting ones in my magwell. I'll pay attention to it in the future, but I'm not sure what the feed issue was and if it's related. It was only one malfunction, and other steel Galils fed flawlessly today. It was a good day of shoosting. I'll post a pic of my mangled round if you'd like, but it looks the same as yours OP. It may just be a bad magazine. You get that with surplus mags sometimes. When I identify one as bad - OK, it's only happened once so far - I remove the spring, fill it up with rolls of pennies until it reaches about the same weight as a fully loaded mag, and then tape it up. It becomes a safe mag for practicing around the house and such. I'll be interested whether you can reproduce the problem with another Galil steel. The Circle 10s and Weigers lift the bullet substantially above the lip of the bullet guide, so might be expected to be more reliable, but I'm pretty sure the Galil mags ought to work flawlessly if everything is in order. So far so good in my rifle, but my 5.45s get most of the work. They also are trusted more for home defense duty, since there are available newly-made normal-capacity milspec mags designed specifically for their magwell specs, not to mention that the 5.45 round itself is better designed for reliable feeding and extraction. Jim Edited January 3, 2011 by Jim Digriz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grendelz 61 Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 (edited) I bought a 223 Saiga and had the Conversion done by a very good company,but unfortunately the gun is not reliable. The cartridge gets pinched sideways at an angle by the bolt face at least 1 out of 10 times. I am using several different Israeli Steel Galil magazines that work just fine in my inexpensive Galil rifle made by Century. I would like to use those same steel mags and not have to buy Orlite mags. Please help me learn by answering some questions: 1. Is this a common problem with Saiga / Galil Conversions ? 2. What causes this problem? 3. What are all the options to fix it? 4. Can this gun ever be made into a super reliable weapon, or do these 223 conversions never get as reliable as the 7.62x39 guns? My 7.62x39 rifle has never ever jammed. 5. Does everyone have to install a "Bullet Guide" to make a 223 Saiga rifle work reliably,or are those only needed to let the gun use Orlite Magazines? I would prefer to use the Steel mags I already have a bunch of,but I don't mind paying more for mags that will make this gun work reliably. 6. Are Israeli steel magazines the best or are there any other high capacity alternatives besides Orlite? 7. What about those Tapco Galil Mags, do you guys think that would fix it or is this a bigger problem? 8. Are there any other Steel Magazine alternatives? Thanks in advance for any helpful replys Who is the good company that did the conversion? They did a conversion but no bullet guide? My 223 runs steel mags without an issue. But, I have bullet guide. almost forgot. Whoever did the work, will they warranty their work? Edited January 3, 2011 by grendelz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hemi348 1 Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 (edited) It appears the rifle already has a bullet guide installed on the rifle. Based on the picture the nose of the bullet is already in the chamber. The thing that is not right about the picture is the bolt is on top of the case instead of behind it. Any rifle that misses the back of the next round to be fed will have this jam, regardless of having a bullet guide. It is absolutely impossible to feed a round if the bolt misses the rim of cartridge. Save the image and take a closer look and you will see what I am talking about. Edited January 3, 2011 by Hemi348 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted January 3, 2011 Report Share Posted January 3, 2011 It appears the rifle already has a bullet guide installed on the rifle. Based on the picture the nose of the bullet is already in the chamber. The thing that is not right about the picture is the bolt is on top of the case instead of behind it. Any rifle that misses the back of the next round to be fed will have this jam, regardless of having a bullet guide. It is absolutely impossible to feed a round if the bolt misses the rim of cartridge. Save the image and take a closer look and you will see what I am talking about. An unobstructed picture would be helpful. It is possible that his particular Saiga 223s is one for which the Galil steels sit to low to work properly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
leadslinger 37 Posted January 4, 2011 Report Share Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) i saved the pic still couldn't see if the bullet guide was installed. never the less you are right sir the bullet is in the chamber and the bolt is on top of the bullet. Still i would insure there is a bullet guide as they really are a necessary mod. for reliability and convenience. next take the cover of and pull charging handle back and release to watch what happens with the round while using the galil mag. It most certainly appears as though the mag may be sitting low. Nothing can really be ascertained without watch what happens to the round while trying to charge it. try finding a mag that you know works then do some measuring to see what the difference may be. Did someone possibly mod the mag or file the mag latch? This will at least give you something to go on rather then us second guessing and causing you excessive expense. Edited January 4, 2011 by leadslinger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hemi348 1 Posted January 5, 2011 Report Share Posted January 5, 2011 i saved the pic still couldn't see if the bullet guide was installed. never the less you are right sir the bullet is in the chamber and the bolt is on top of the bullet. Still i would insure there is a bullet guide as they really are a necessary mod. for reliability and convenience. next take the cover of and pull charging handle back and release to watch what happens with the round while using the galil mag. It most certainly appears as though the mag may be sitting low. Nothing can really be ascertained without watch what happens to the round while trying to charge it. try finding a mag that you know works then do some measuring to see what the difference may be. Did someone possibly mod the mag or file the mag latch? This will at least give you something to go on rather then us second guessing and causing you excessive expense. x2 you definitely need to work the action and see what happens with some dummy rounds at home. Some more pictures at other angles would also be helpful for us. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
leadslinger 37 Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 did you get it figured out? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunsrfun4me 0 Posted January 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Thanks to all of you for the help. You guys are a great source of information. I'm sorry I was not informed enough when I first made my post to know it,but this rifle does have a Bullet Guide. "Hemi348" is correct when he says: "It appears the rifle already has a bullet guide installed on the rifle. Based on the picture the nose of the bullet is already in the chamber. The thing that is not right about the picture is the bolt is on top of the case instead of behind it. Any rifle that misses the back of the next round to be fed will have this jam, regardless of having a bullet guide. It is absolutely impossible to feed a round if the bolt misses the rim of cartridge." I have bought 8 Steel Galil Magazines,( four 35 round & four 50 round) but the Failure To Feed happens on all of them an average of one out of every ten rounds. So now that we know the gun does in fact have a B.G. and I have tried 8 different magazines what do you guys think is causing the problem and what is the fix? Thanks Again for any help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bohound 281 Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 I have bought 8 Steel Galil Magazines,( four 35 round & four 50 round) but the Failure To Feed happens on all of them an average of one out of every ten rounds. So now that we know the gun does in fact have a B.G. and I have tried 8 different magazines what do you guys think is causing the problem and what is the fix? Sell the 50 rounders (they're priced suprisingly high) and get either Orlites or C-10's with the money. Don't know what's causing your issue, some people's Saigas don't feed the steel Galil's consistantly. It's just hit or miss. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Shows us close-up pics of the bullet guide please. I bought my Saiga .223 from a guy who was an aircraft mechanic. He made his own bullet guides. Well, the one he made for my Saiga didn't work. I had issues similar to yours. I replaced it with a Dinzag bullet guide and it has worked flawlessly since then. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hemi348 1 Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 I have bought 8 Steel Galil Magazines,( four 35 round & four 50 round) but the Failure To Feed happens on all of them an average of one out of every ten rounds. So now that we know the gun does in fact have a B.G. and I have tried 8 different magazines what do you guys think is causing the problem and what is the fix? Sell the 50 rounders (they're priced suprisingly high) and get either Orlites or C-10's with the money. Don't know what's causing your issue, some people's Saigas don't feed the steel Galil's consistantly. It's just hit or miss. x2 I believe that the galil mags do sit lower than other magazine options, so replacing them could solve your problem. Just pick one up and see if it works. We don't want you to drop all those mags and your money if they are not the problem. Do the magazines rock back and forth after they are locked in by any chance? I used to have a wasr-10 that jammed the same way as your picture. I had a gunsmith add material to the magazine catch so that the magazine could lock into a higher position in the rear. This solved my problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 Do the magazines rock back and forth after they are locked in by any chance? My Galil steels do, but they still work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hemi348 1 Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Do the magazines rock back and forth after they are locked in by any chance? My Galil steels do, but they still work. I am sorry I should have been more clear. By rocking back and forth I mean from front to back rather than side to side. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 Do the magazines rock back and forth after they are locked in by any chance? My Galil steels do, but they still work. I am sorry I should have been more clear. By rocking back and forth I mean from front to back rather than side to side. They rock both ways. The front to back movement is not enough to be a problem in my rifle; it works either way. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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