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I am here to learn, share knowledge and engage in firearms discussion in a mature manner. I am not at all interested in getting into bickering, fights and making enemies. I try to treat people online

You know I am happy somebody refinished your rifle properly but you are by far the most classless dude I have run across in eons. There is absolutely no reason for you to take a dig at a rifle you adm

Now Spets that is classy and civil. Detente accepted. If you really don't mind I would prefer to stay in the kool aid club if for no other reason to make it easier for others that are interested in fe

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is anyone else as "weirded out" by the bolt rebounding like that as I am? :unsure:

 

I am with you... watching the bolt bounce on the receiver.... how long before something breaks or gets worn down?

 

Hey! Don't question it! It's the superior, 800 year old Czech gun engineering! :lolol:

Is it the bolt that's bouncing or just the carrier? The bolt on my Saiga .223 can move back almost 1/4" before the bolt starts turning. I imagine the Czechs like tighter tolerances, so that could make it a bigger issue in the vz. 58 design. Otherwise, the steel-on-steel contact wouldn't worry me much.

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I was looking at the vz's from the same website that Spet bought them from but I was a little jittery about warranty issues (if something goes wrong, who do I deal with?) and the fact that I am poor as dirt. I am glad that Czechpoint is taking care of you. I fondled one at the gunshop and it is a sexy little thing. Is there any forum that really is informative about vz's? I looked around but they are usually "Hey, look, I bought this gun" and then they cut and past stuff from Czechpoint's website.

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I was looking at the vz's from the same website that Spet bought them from but I was a little jittery about warranty issues (if something goes wrong, who do I deal with?) and the fact that I am poor as dirt. I am glad that Czechpoint is taking care of you. I fondled one at the gunshop and it is a sexy little thing. Is there any forum that really is informative about vz's? I looked around but they are usually "Hey, look, I bought this gun" and then they cut and past stuff from Czechpoint's website.

 

I believe that Czechpoint warranties all vz58s which come into the country with new new D-Technik receivers and barrels, including the ones which were marketed by CZ-USA (CZ-USA's warranty page refers you to Czechpoint for warranty on their vz58s and vz62s). As far as forums, posted on this one: http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?board=67.0

This Canadian forums was recommended to me before: http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=129

 

Neit Arms makes some awesome upgrades for them, such as a bolt release button, extended/ambi mag release, ambi safety, etc.

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Well I just joined the club by ordering a century from classic arms. Maybe joining as the branch of the family on the wrong side of the tracks but still close kin. Got it with the wood furniture.

 

So mine has a U.S. receiver, U.S. barrel. Maybe U.S. wood? Reading through the thread it sounded like some were saying the internals and fire control group are lesser parts? Why would that be, seems to be most all that have left from their part kits.

 

Is my century 922 kosher?

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Well I just joined the club by ordering a century from classic arms. Maybe joining as the branch of the family on the wrong side of the tracks but still close kin. Got it with the wood furniture.

 

So mine has a U.S. receiver, U.S. barrel. Maybe U.S. wood? Reading through the thread it sounded like some were saying the internals and fire control group are lesser parts? Why would that be, seems to be most all that have left from their part kits.

 

Is my century 922 kosher?

It's likely compliant in part due to the use of some cheap plastic internals/FCG parts..

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Well I just joined the club by ordering a century from classic arms. Maybe joining as the branch of the family on the wrong side of the tracks but still close kin. Got it with the wood furniture.

 

So mine has a U.S. receiver, U.S. barrel. Maybe U.S. wood? Reading through the thread it sounded like some were saying the internals and fire control group are lesser parts? Why would that be, seems to be most all that have left from their part kits.

 

Is my century 922 kosher?

 

When it comes to Century vzs, the US made receiver and barrel are going to be your "lesser parts". That barrel will probably only last ~10,000 rds, vs ~30,000 rds for a proper, chrome-lined, mil spec barrel. It's actually the Czechpoint guns that have polymer triggers, but everyone says that they don't break.

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Geez give a guy who does not shit golden goose eggs a break. I know it has the hated name CENTURY but they didn't go down to Lowes and buy a piece of PVC pipe for a barrel or contract with some dirt floor machine shop in the Swat Valley of Pakistan for a receiver. I did a little research and not many folks that have bought the recent ones are bad mouthing them. Everyone that gave feedback at J & G gave it a five star. Fact is several that own it and the pricier czech imports claim the Century outshoots. SHOCK!!! BLASPHEMY !!!

 

This is who makes the receiver. They also make FAL receivers. Not exactly joe's garage guys.

 

http://www.northcountryeng.com/

 

Green Mountain makes the barrels. I don't hear too much about them churning out a bad product.

 

http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/OutdoorResources

 

Everything else is Czech military parts kits.

 

I don't know if Century has their infamous monkeys slamming them together but it wouldn't be unheard of them contracting that task out to people with a mild pot instead of a harsh hallucinogenic meth habit.

 

Chrome line barrels aren't the be all end all of of everything. Plenty, maybe most, rifles do not have them. All the legendary arms like Garand and M14 and 1911s and .. do. Whoops. No they do not. Well all the high end target rifles do. Whoops caught telling more lies. Yes they are easier to clean and last longer but I doubt I will ever shoot it down to a shiny shotgun bore.

 

Besides for 370 it has to beat your run of the mill WASR 10 wouldn't you think?

 

Can't we all just get along?

Edited by rocinante
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Don't be so defensive! LOL

 

I've yet to handle a Century kit-built weapon that doesn't feel cheap and shoddy, but I also never seen or handled one of these VZ2008s of theirs. A local shop here stocks on all the Century crap (other than the vz2008s) and they do seem to sell like hot-cakes. In fact, these guys have stopped carrying higher tier weapons, because it seems that most people are happy paying less for Century models. Mostly, people just want to plink and fuck around, and are perfectly happy with their Century and IOInc AKs, DPMS and Olympic M4geries, etc. I prefer to spend a bit more and get a higher quality tool, but to each his own.

Edited by SpetsnazGRU
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Well Spetsnaz I sincerely hope I do not have any issues like you did with your higher tier weapon. To each his own. right? right.

 

In all these years, I seem to be the only one to have had this issue with a Czechpoint weapon. The weapon is from an early run, when they cold-blued the magwell (after widening it for double-stack mags), instead of painting it like they do now. It looks like the weapon was stored (by the retailer) in humid conditions (they are in the South) without maintenance for a few years. Any way, that rifle is now at Czechpoint, being restored to new condition (magwell refinished, with bolt carrier and recoil spring replaced) and should be shipped back to me by the end of next week. Doesn't Century Arms warranty last only 1 year and start when the weapon leaves the factory? You better not have any issues!

Edited by SpetsnazGRU
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Geez give a guy who does not shit golden goose eggs a break. I know it has the hated name CENTURY but they didn't go down to Lowes and buy a piece of PVC pipe for a barrel or contract with some dirt floor machine shop in the Swat Valley of Pakistan for a receiver. I did a little research and not many folks that have bought the recent ones are bad mouthing them. Everyone that gave feedback at J & G gave it a five star. Fact is several that own it and the pricier czech imports claim the Century outshoots. SHOCK!!! BLASPHEMY !!!

 

This is who makes the receiver. They also make FAL receivers. Not exactly joe's garage guys.

 

http://www.northcountryeng.com/

 

Green Mountain makes the barrels. I don't hear too much about them churning out a bad product.

 

http://www.gmrifleba...utdoorResources

 

Everything else is Czech military parts kits.

 

I don't know if Century has their infamous monkeys slamming them together but it wouldn't be unheard of them contracting that task out to people with a mild pot instead of a harsh hallucinogenic meth habit.

 

Chrome line barrels aren't the be all end all of of everything. Plenty, maybe most, rifles do not have them. All the legendary arms like Garand and M14 and 1911s and .. do. Whoops. No they do not. Well all the high end target rifles do. Whoops caught telling more lies. Yes they are easier to clean and last longer but I doubt I will ever shoot it down to a shiny shotgun bore.

 

Besides for 370 it has to beat your run of the mill WASR 10 wouldn't you think?

 

Can't we all just get along?

 

Hm. This is interesting. Let me know how the VZ-2008 works for you. I may be interested in one if it does not have the issues like the other Century guns out there (I do not have a lot of money right now and the price is appealing).

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I got my rifle in last night. First impressions are very favorable. It definitely feels lighter than my saiga and points real nice and feels balanced. The receiver and barrel look great, nicely machined and black parkerized. Sights look straight. This may sound odd but even the rock and lock feels easier. This one had the wood stock and they look new. I wonder where they came from and if they are czech because the underside of the hand guards still had cosmoline on them. I removed the hand guards to install a MAKO set. I boogered up the wood on the upper hand guard trying to get it off until I figured out how to really do it. The metal does not come apart. Grip or better yet put in a vise the metal ends and twist the wood off. So easy a caveman can do it. The MAKO stuff seemed solid and I put a red dot on it and a pistol grip. I am outfitting this one for my teenage son and he had me order a very long front pistol grip which totally interferes with the magazine. I told him so but being a doting dad makes you agree to dumb stuff sometimes. He really likes the look of the czechpoint polymer stock set so I ordered one for him. Not too bad, 50 including the butt pad and cheek rest. Hopefully the length of pull will be a little longer because the current stock has that commie tucked in too tight feel. Also ordered 4 more magazine. Got a muzzle brake on the way. I guess it is a testament to all the good reviews I have read on the rifle and my own compulsive nature that I ordered so much stuff without even seeing or firing the gun first. I ordered a folder with the resin stocks from jgsales. At 380 shipped how could I go wrong?

 

Hopefully I will be able to take it to the indoor range soon just to sight in the red dot and get a general impression. IMHO YMMV FWIW YADA YADA I believe I got a nice gun.

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I got my rifle in last night. First impressions are very favorable. It definitely feels lighter than my saiga and points real nice and feels balanced. The receiver and barrel look great, nicely machined and black parkerized. Sights look straight. This may sound odd but even the rock and lock feels easier. This one had the wood stock and they look new. I wonder where they came from and if they are czech because the underside of the hand guards still had cosmoline on them. I removed the hand guards to install a MAKO set. I boogered up the wood on the upper hand guard trying to get it off until I figured out how to really do it. The metal does not come apart. Grip or better yet put in a vise the metal ends and twist the wood off. So easy a caveman can do it. The MAKO stuff seemed solid and I put a red dot on it and a pistol grip. I am outfitting this one for my teenage son and he had me order a very long front pistol grip which totally interferes with the magazine. I told him so but being a doting dad makes you agree to dumb stuff sometimes. He really likes the look of the czechpoint polymer stock set so I ordered one for him. Not too bad, 50 including the butt pad and cheek rest. Hopefully the length of pull will be a little longer because the current stock has that commie tucked in too tight feel. Also ordered 4 more magazine. Got a muzzle brake on the way. I guess it is a testament to all the good reviews I have read on the rifle and my own compulsive nature that I ordered so much stuff without even seeing or firing the gun first. I ordered a folder with the resin stocks from jgsales. At 380 shipped how could I go wrong?

 

Hopefully I will be able to take it to the indoor range soon just to sight in the red dot and get a general impression. IMHO YMMV FWIW YADA YADA I believe I got a nice gun.

 

I'm not a fan of the Mako railed handguard. I plan on going with the Neit Arms piston cover for optics mounting. It sits low enough for co-witness. Which optic did you mount, any way?

 

Not a fan of VFGs either. On AKs and vz58's, that's what the mag is for. With the Mako HG, VFG and optic, you might end up putting too much weight on the front, making the rifle less balanced.

 

The polymer stock that you are talking about, is the Dragunov, "thumb-hole" type, right? I don't think that these look right on fighting carbines with 16" barrels. I plan on getting the wire folder. Getting the Mako pistol grip. I like the AK version.

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I'm not a fan of the Mako railed handguard. I plan on going with the Neit Arms piston cover for optics mounting. It sits low enough for co-witness. Which optic did you mount, any way?

Personally, for red dot, fast reaction optics, I like a forward mounting.

 

Not a fan of VFGs either. On AKs and vz58's, that's what the mag is for. With the Mako HG, VFG and optic, you might end up putting too much weight on the front, making the rifle less balanced.
Clearly, that was not the original design intent of either the AK or the VZ58, is just a common usage.

 

One which frankly I disapprove of on these platforms. AK mag mounting and stability being less rigid then a mag-well type firearm, this is an invitation to feeding problems. Also, despite what people "like," having your hands so close together makes the firearm harder to control quickly. Then there is the admittedly unlikely issue of a chamber failure and having just the thin sheet metal, or plastic, of the mag to protect your hand.

 

The polymer stock that you are talking about, is the Dragunov, "thumb-hole" type, right? I don't think that these look right on fighting carbines with 16" barrels. I plan on getting the wire folder. Getting the Mako pistol grip. I like the AK version.

Each to his own...you say Sigh-Ga, I say Say-ga... :lolol:

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I'm not a fan of the Mako railed handguard. I plan on going with the Neit Arms piston cover for optics mounting. It sits low enough for co-witness. Which optic did you mount, any way?

Personally, for red dot, fast reaction optics, I like a forward mounting.

 

So do I. That's why I want a Neit Arms piston cover rail. It sits lower than other options and allows for co-witness with the irons. It's like Ultimak for vz58s. I have an Ultimak with Aimpoint Micro on my SGL21 (main go-to gun).

 

Not a fan of VFGs either. On AKs and vz58's, that's what the mag is for. With the Mako HG, VFG and optic, you might end up putting too much weight on the front, making the rifle less balanced.

 

Clearly, that was not the original design intent of either the AK or the VZ58, is just a common usage.

 

Are you sure about that?

 

One which frankly I disapprove of on these platforms. AK mag mounting and stability being less rigid then a mag-well type firearm, this is an invitation to feeding problems. Also, despite what people "like," having your hands so close together makes the firearm harder to control quickly. Then there is the admittedly unlikely issue of a chamber failure and having just the thin sheet metal, or plastic, of the mag to protect your hand.

 

AKs are designed to feed reliably from wobbly mags. Personally, I've never had a feeding failure with my SGL. I believe that it's much more of an issue with Saiga shotguns. You can also learn to control the weapon well using this hold, if you don't make it too front-heavy and thus, unbalanced. It makes mag changed ultra fast too. I just think that VFGs looks silly on AKs too. Well, that Magpul AFG is not too bad...

 

The polymer stock that you are talking about, is the Dragunov, "thumb-hole" type, right? I don't think that these look right on fighting carbines with 16" barrels. I plan on getting the wire folder. Getting the Mako pistol grip. I like the AK version.

Each to his own...you say Sigh-Ga, I say Say-ga... :lolol:

 

Well, I do say it the right way and you do say it the wrong way. :)

Edited by SpetsnazGRU
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Are you sure about that?

Absolutely, the front hand guard should be a big clue of where the designer intended you to grip the rifle and the fact that all AKs that were designed to be used with a vertical handguard, came from the factory with a vertical handguard.

 

AKs are designed to feed reliably from wobbly mags...

It is a design weakness, not a feature; the dimples being inadequate to stabilize the mag.

 

If you want to see this corrected, try an AK built with AK Builder double rails, much more stable! The fact that it is not more problematic then it is, is thanks largely to fact that all of the guns tolerances are loose. In short, they generally feed well, under a variety of poor conditions. But a wobbly mag does not in anyway contribute positively to this and it is little starry eyed to try to pass this off as a feature.

 

As to the Sigh-Ga, vs Say-ga debate and your assertion that you say it, "the right way." You say it like a European and I say it like an American. If you are a European, you are in America trying to correct the whole nation to your pronunciation. Which is as contentious as is futile.

 

If you are an American, you are just posing. Frankly, I am just happy being who I am. :angel:

 

There many brand names that have regional pronunciations, just try going world-wide and ordering a "Coke."

Edited by Azrial
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Meh, there's no "proper" pronunciation. Some people pronounce it like a crappy antiquated game system, some pronounce it like the Russians - since the first time I heard the word pronounced was by an Izhmash representative on a video about the Saiga-12, I pronounce it the way I heard it - and I'm entirely certain that doesn't make me a poser.

 

Back to vz. 58s, I still want one, badly, but have blown my boomstick budget for months to come. I hope the Century cheapies are still so cheap in a few months when I can afford to spend more money. The rifles with wood furniture are very attractive.

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Back to vz. 58s, I still want one, badly, but have blown my boomstick budget for months to come.

 

I went through my toy gun box and sold a lot and bought a lot. My intentions was to sit on the cash but right now I am still 8 bucks ahead.

 

Per holding the mag as a grip I started this poll on the highroad. It is evenly split between yes and no. Some good, some absurd, statements of support one way or the other.

 

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=572800&highlight=mag+hold

 

I too was a little resistant to vertical grips but have found a stubby is great because it doesn't interfere with anything. I hate the long tacticool grip my kid picked out but he is a kid so whatever. On the shotgun with a drum the vertical grip allows my arm to go out more in a raised level while holding the hand guard the drum would be in the way of my arm.

 

Whether a particular arm was designed for or originally came with some feature is irrelevant. Using that logic no one would be using rails, red dots, ace stocks, etc, etc, etc on an AK. I have seen plenty of CD players in cars that didn't even have radios as options when they were built. The Romanians designed a stock with a built in vertical grip.

 

On this vz I have a chinese aimpoint clone on a cantilever mount. We had it on the SKS I just sold and it has always performed well except for blowing off the cheap lens covers. It sits a little high so I think I will get him a little lower mount. On my saiga rifle I just got a primary arms microdot. If I like it I'll put one on my folder vz.

Edited by rocinante
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Are you sure about that?

Absolutely, the front hand guard should be a big clue of where the designer intended you to grip the rifle and the fact that all AKs that were designed to be used with a vertical handguard, came from the factory with a vertical handguard.

 

AKs are designed to feed reliably from wobbly mags...

It is a design weakness, not a feature; the dimples being inadequate to stabilize the mag.

 

If you want to see this corrected, try an AK built with AK Builder double rails, much more stable! The fact that it is not more problematic then it is, is thanks largely to fact that all of the guns tolerances are loose. In short, they generally feed well, under a variety of poor conditions. But a wobbly mag does not in anyway contribute positively to this and it is little starry eyed to try to pass this off as a feature.

 

As to the Sigh-Ga, vs Say-ga debate and your assertion that you say it, "the right way." You say it like a European and I say it like an American. If you are a European, you are in America trying to correct the whole nation to your pronunciation. Which is as contentious as is futile.

 

If you are an American, you are just posing. Frankly, I am just happy being who I am. :angel:

 

There many brand names that have regional pronunciations, just try going world-wide and ordering a "Coke."

 

I was in no way asserting that mag wobble was a positive feature, only that the system was designed to compensate for its presence. I've seen rifle and mag combinations which produced terrible wobble, but as long as the mag locked in, it was still feeding 100%.

 

As far as the mag hold being part of the design... what made me think that it might have been, is the fact that whenever I shoot AKs with women or small-statued men who are new to the weapon, I noticed that they naturally tend to grab the mag and find the handguard hold to be very uncomfortable and unnatural. Well, the thing is, MK himself is like 5 ft tall and most post WW2 famine Soviet soldiers at that time were rather small statued. I just connected those dots.

 

By the way, my first language is Russian. The Saiga brand is not yet common enough in the US to have formed a common "regional pronunciation". Many people here do, in fact, pronounce it as "Sigh-ga". Most variations in pronunciations of foreign word form on the basis of the original word featuring a sound that's too hard to pronounce for the non-native speakers. For instance, another Russian-originated word: "bistro". There is just simply no way for a non-Russian speaker to correctly pronounce the first syllable of that word, because it features a sound which doesn't exist in the English language. Yet, both syllables in "Saiga" exist in Engish: sigh, sight, sign, Saigon, science, gun, gushing, guard, etc.

 

I myself, do not use the 100% percent correct Russian pronunciation of Saiga these days. I pronounce it with the stress on the first syllable, because it putting the stress on the last syllable is pretty unnatural in English.

 

Look, it's not big deal or nothing. I am not trying to be smug. It's just that people around me, including my gun dealers, do ask me how to pronounce these things and I am always happy to "educate" them. Saiga is just easier to pronounce close to the Russian pronunciation. Much easier than "Makarov" and "Tokarev". The last syllable in "Tokarev" is another one of those that doesn't have an equivalent in the English language.

 

It's all good tho.

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No, I believe that SpetsnazGRU is using the correct pronunciation! I just don't see the point in trying to correct everyone else. But, it was nice chatting with him about it!

 

As to VFG comment, I was saying these rifles were obviously not designed to be grabbed by the mag when firing. You are of course welcome to fire yours anyway you wish. When it comes to modifying the firearm, this is Saiga12.com and the sky and your bank account is the limit!

 

Speaking of modification, I am waiting to look at the two mags side by side. I would like to compair the two to see how difficult it would be to modify the Vz58 to work with the AK. Unless it were very easy it would not be worthwhile of course to attempt to modify stick mags, but one of the AK drums might be fun.

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Back to vz. 58s, I still want one, badly, but have blown my boomstick budget for months to come.

 

I went through my toy gun box and sold a lot and bought a lot. My intentions was to sit on the cash but right now I am still 8 bucks ahead.

 

Per holding the mag as a grip I started this poll on the highroad. It is evenly split between yes and no. Some good, some absurd, statements of support one way or the other.

 

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=572800&highlight=mag+hold

 

I too was a little resistant to vertical grips but have found a stubby is great because it doesn't interfere with anything. I hate the long tacticool grip my kid picked out but he is a kid so whatever. On the shotgun with a drum the vertical grip allows my arm to go out more in a raised level while holding the hand guard the drum would be in the way of my arm.

 

Whether a particular arm was designed for or originally came with some feature is irrelevant. Using that logic no one would be using rails, red dots, ace stocks, etc, etc, etc on an AK. I have seen plenty of CD players in cars that didn't even have radios as options when they were built. The Romanians designed a stock with a built in vertical grip.

 

On this vz I have a chinese aimpoint clone on a cantilever mount. We had it on the SKS I just sold and it has always performed well except for blowing off the cheap lens covers. It sits a little high so I think I will get him a little lower mount. On my saiga rifle I just got a primary arms microdot. If I like it I'll put one on my folder vz.

 

I have a VFG on my S12 too. I am not really arguing against accessorising AKs. The most prominent example of an AK with a VFG "built-in" is the Hungarian AMD65. I think that that gun looks very silly, but that's a personal preference.

 

I used to have a Primary Arms Microdot on my SGL, before that Aimpoint Micro R-1 sale on MidwayUSA. It's a good sight for the money.

 

I just got a VLTOR offset flashlight mount that I put on my Ultimak (with a Surefire G2 LED). It's a pretty light combo, which doesn't unbalance the weapon too much.

Here are some pics:

 

post-10789-0-64945600-1297540605_thumb.jpg post-10789-0-88468600-1297540619_thumb.jpg

 

post-10789-0-28149400-1297540627_thumb.jpg

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No, I believe that SpetsnazGRU is using the correct pronunciation! I just don't see the point in trying to correct everyone else. But, it was nice chatting with him about it!

 

As to VFG comment, I was saying these rifles were obviously not designed to be grabbed by the mag when firing. You are of course welcome to fire yours anyway you wish. When it comes to modifying the firearm, this is Saiga12.com and the sky and your bank account is the limit!

 

Speaking of modification, I am waiting to look at the two mags side by side. I would like to compair the two to see how difficult it would be to modify the Vz58 to work with the AK. Unless it were very easy it would not be worthwhile of course to attempt to modify stick mags, but one of the AK drums might be fun.

 

Azrial, I don't usually go around correcting people on their pronunciation of "Saiga", unless they ask me to. For some reason, I just thought that, with Saigas being his livelyhood, Will (from Red Jacket) would be pronouncing it differently. Personal expectations... My bad.

 

A lot of guys from Spetsnaz and OMON do hold the rifle by the mag. It's a matter of personal preference with them.

 

As far as modifying AK mags, I heard of at least one guy who did a drum. It seems to me, like you would have to add (weld on) some material to the mags.

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There is a company somewhere that produces vz. 58 drums that are identical to the Chinese AK drums, but with a vz. 58 specific feed tower - I do not believe these work to activate the LRBHO. The only place I've seen them for sale was on a Czech website for about 200 EUR. I do not believe anybody has imported them into the US. An AK drum would be a challenge to modify, and would definitely require lots of measuring, a high degree of machining skill, and lots of patience. Since the vz. 58 mags are aluminum, the just-weld-the-shit-together method is right out.

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There is a company somewhere that produces vz. 58 drums that are identical to the Chinese AK drums, but with a vz. 58 specific feed tower - I do not believe these work to activate the LRBHO. The only place I've seen them for sale was on a Czech website for about 200 EUR. ...

 

About $150USD, plus shipping. I doubt that it would be worthwhile to try and make them. Plus you say that they are aluminum!

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