Introducing the u308 20 round Magazine

[Mephis 82]

Gentlemen,

 

I'd like as many of you as possible to chime in for me on the rear lug discussion. I can only get my hands on so many S308s to measure. How much wobble is everyone seeing? I have about .020" on our Uinta rifle. The more input I get, the better I can make this product. Also, if we make the rear lugs a little too big, and you had to file them down by hand, would that be an issue for you? Let me know what you see in your particular weapon, we value user input.

 

Measuring it out on my gun, it seems to be pretty much exactly 1mm of excess play between the bottom of the tab and the magazine release.

 

Filing a magazine to fit isn't an issue at all. I'd MUCH prefer to have to fit magazines to the gun.

 

Specing things out, from the bottom of the receiver to the top of the mag catch on my gun is exactly 0.210" at the highest point(Middle sides) and 0.290" at the lowest(Front of the catch). The excessive play comes out to 0.04". The magazine's tab appears to be 0.200" but I'm not exactly certain where lockup is coming from, or where you should measure.

 

If you need anything else let me know, I'll make sure to frequently check this thread.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Tombs

[BallzFast 4]

the 20rd mag i got from uinta has 0 front to back play and only very slight side to side play. i am very pleased with my purchase.

[timy 1,185]

Had range time today with 6 new out of wrapper mags. 1 of 6 did a fail to feed on 2nd and 7th round. Reloaded and it worked as others. Mine fit tighter than regular AK mags in other weapons. Used 2 rifles. Will still emory and silicone enternals, as done with all resin based mags. Will use these mags in a saiga mag converted Vepr. Top of front lip has to be filed an 1/8 inch to work correctly, yet still work in a Saiga. Easiest mag style to do this. Shot 1,000 rds today, 200 silver bear, 300 wolf, and 500 german surplus. Only issue was 2rds on mag mentioned before. Of 2 rifles used, fit was the same in both. Not any more wobble than a Fal or M1A. P.S. 2 8rd factory mags that came with my weapons wobble at least twice as much as these did.

 

 

 

Holy crab apple!! 1000 rounds makes me feel less than adequate! Anyway, I did 40 rounds through 2 mags and had no issues. I ran American Eagle (at 14.00 per 20) five rounds per loading to get the mags in and out several times. The magazines are loose, looser than I'd like, but it didn't affect function any this time around. Dunno what wobble is on a FAL or M1A but it sounds substantial. I plan on trying to tighten these things up a bit but they did work as is with my limited shooting.

 

I was mainly running my 223 (100 rounds of PMC) and it worked fine except I had a double fire on one occasion when I was doing a slow squeeze. Uh oh! Please help. I've only run a couple of hundred rounds through it since the conversion and this was the first glitch. Still, I'm not licensed for a selective fire weapon and I'd rather not go to prison.

 

This link explains what is probably going on, as well as the kind of trigger pulls that will be more or less likely to produce doubles due to hammer follow.

 

Thanks, I briefly looked at the link (no time right now) and am wondering if I'm competent enough to do this kind of precision work. I'll try to run it again this weekend and see if I can intentionally get it to happen again. If it does, the rifle is out of service until I can resolve the issue.

[jimdigriz 580]

Thanks, I briefly looked at the link (no time right now) and am wondering if I'm competent enough to do this kind of precision work. I'll try to run it again this weekend and see if I can intentionally get it to happen again. If it does, the rifle is out of service until I can resolve the issue.

 

The Tapco G2 is notorious for this. I got tired of it and have begun trying alternatives. Looking at the RSA trigger now.

[timy 1,185]

Gentlemen,

 

I'd like as many of you as possible to chime in for me on the rear lug discussion. I can only get my hands on so many S308s to measure. How much wobble is everyone seeing? I have about .020" on our Uinta rifle. The more input I get, the better I can make this product. Also, if we make the rear lugs a little too big, and you had to file them down by hand, would that be an issue for you? Let me know what you see in your particular weapon, we value user input.

 

I PMed Uinta on this site suggesting a bit more meat on the lug and didn't get a response but my issue is the same as post #30 in this thread. It appears the angle of the lug is my problem because it touches the release lever when starting insertion but once in place there is a definite gap between the lug and lever when pushing up slightly on the mag. Limited range time (40 rounds/2 mags) didn't reveal any function problems but I would prefer a tighter fit. I can try to measure wobble later but am out of time for now.

 

I too would have no problem filing a bit to get a "custom" fit. Seeing as some have a good fit as is, I don't think you would have to add much. I realize tolerances seem to be varying a lot between different rifles here but am mainly concerned with fit on my own, of course.

[Mephis 82]

I just played around with them for about 3 more hours...

 

Always ALWAYS feeds from the right side of the mag perfectly. Hardly ever will feed from the left side of the magazine. Russian mag's top is 1.1" wide, Uinta mag's top is 1.06" wide. I'm guessing it's staggering shells too narrow.

 

I really can't figure this one out, I've tried tightening it up everywhere and boosting the spring pressure. Nothing helps. Factory russian 8 rounder works every time.

 

 

Try this, set the gun straight up on the butt and cycle rounds, it'll never pick up the left side round. That drastically worsens the problem.

 

At this point I'm wondering if I could add some metal to the bottom of the bolt, and if so, how much. It's like it needs more of a feed foot. Then again, still doesn't explain why only Uinta mags have an issue.

 

 

Update

 

Just tried an AGP 10 round saiga 12 mag spring in it. Low and behold, it'll feed no matter what you do to it. It limits capacity to 16 rounds but there's no possible way to make it not feed. So it looks like all these mags need is a MUCH beefier spring in them. Just remember, the factory 8 rounder has a spring of the same size in it... To move only 8 rounds. You need a lot more spring in there to make up for tolerance issues.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Tombs

[Mephis 82]

Here's a detailed picture of the exact type of malfunction to expect.

 

 

 

Even more annoying than that, eventually the bolt just starts riding over rounds without even moving them.

 

 

As shown there, I set the BHO after racking it about 5 times and being unable to pick a round up.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Tombs

[MaxTheRabbit 0]

Always ALWAYS feeds from the right side of the mag perfectly. Hardly ever will feed from the left side of the magazine. Russian mag's top is 1.1" wide, Uinta mag's top is 1.06" wide. I'm guessing it's staggering shells too narrow.

 

...

 

Update

 

Just tried an AGP 10 round saiga 12 mag spring in it. Low and behold, it'll feed no matter what you do to it. It limits capacity to 16 rounds but there's no possible way to make it not feed. So it looks like all these mags need is a MUCH beefier spring in them. Just remember, the factory 8 rounder has a spring of the same size in it... To move only 8 rounds. You need a lot more spring in there to make up for tolerance issues.

 

You know come to think of it all my malfs were when feeding from the left side of the mag as well. Interesting.

 

BTW I had my 3rd lug refinished by RAA a couple years back.

 

My opinion based off my own experiences and others' is that Tombs is correct and the spring is indeed too weak.

 

ETA: I bet that the 3rd lug (even when properly finished) is bumping the rounds down in the mag when recoiling and that little bit of extra distance to overcome is too much for the mag spring.

Edited March 19, 2011 by MaxTheRabbit

[Mephis 82]

Bought a couple surefire 20 round mags at the gun show today.

 

Not a single malfunction, exceptionally ROCK SOLID lockup. They also make the rounds ride much higher in the receiver and the bolt has no problem stripping them off, no matter what angle you put the rifle at, or whether you put force on the magazine. The springs in the surefire mags are at least twice as strong, and the magazine body doesn't pinch the follower what so ever, even empty.

 

Looks like the Uinta design is just faulty. I initially figured it was an issue with the rifle, but since the factory mag and surefire mags work, it is most certainly an issue with Uinta only.

Really breaking it down, the magazine is dimensionally too small. Using a dial caliper it seems just about everything is equally shrunk. Maybe the polymer they're using shrinks after popping out of the mold? I notice it does pinch the follower quiet a bit, in all 3 of the magazines, adding a weak spring and poor lockup into the mix makes it amazing they work in the first place. I didn't notice these issues until I used a magazine that worked properly, I just assumed they were normal. I'm currently building up the lug on the back of the magazines and looking for a replacement spring for them, I really want them to work because they're a lot nicer looking and feeling than surefires are.

 

I really hate to knock on them because they're making an honest effort here, but if someone is using this weapon for self defense, this is a pretty serious issue.

 

You know come to think of it all my malfs were when feeding from the left side of the mag as well. Interesting.

 

BTW I had my 3rd lug refinished by RAA a couple years back.

 

My opinion based off my own experiences and others' is that Tombs is correct and the spring is indeed too weak.

 

ETA: I bet that the 3rd lug (even when properly finished) is bumping the rounds down in the mag when recoiling and that little bit of extra distance to overcome is too much for the mag spring.

 

 

I have my 3rd lug taken down as much as it safely can be a mirror polished. I did that after noticing it nearly gashing a hole in brass cased ammo.

 

It feeds the same now as it did before I tuned up the lug. I don't think it's a contributing factor. I believe it's more that the over-all dimensions of the magazine are too narrow both inside and outside. Meaning that when it tries to load a round from the left side, it(the bolt) pushes the magazine away and slips off the back of the shell casing.

 

0.10" difference in width measured from the back, and top of the magazine around the feed lips... It's 0.10" thinner than either the surefire or the factory mag.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Tombs

[MrClean4Hire 0]

Here's a detailed picture of the exact type of malfunction to expect.

 

 

 

Even more annoying than that, eventually the bolt just starts riding over rounds without even moving them.

 

 

As shown there, I set the BHO after racking it about 5 times and being unable to pick a round up.

 

 

This is exactly what m.ine are doing.

 

I bought 12 of these mags.

 

.and yes they wobble quite a bit in both of my rifles.

[MaxTheRabbit 0]

In my gun surefires did the exact same thing as the uintas did. Only csspecs and OEM work for me.

[BallzFast 4]

odd that my uintas mag does not wobble left,right,front or back and all rounds feed perfect.

[Ruffian72 548]

For those who don't tinker, Saiga's CAN be a pain. My 308's don't like Surefire's without a lot of mag tuning, and forget the 25's all together, cut'm down to 20's and did certain filings and do work now. Got 2 ProMag, these really needed internal sanding and some fitting. Was a tester for csspec, 1st mag wobbled like a drunkin squid (sailor) , yet never failed to function. Front tab was a little high, yet still use it, and all gotten in production have been tight. What can drive you nuts is different mag production runs can even vary. Mold and chemical mix in resin mags. Yesterday a bud brought over his just purchased 10 production model. My mags are loose in his weapon, except a couple 25 rd Surefires I hadn't the chance to modify. So production runs of weapons can vary also, mine are 06, and 07 models. It's the mixing and matching and fine tuning. Gotta love this.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Ruffian72

[Ruffian72 548]

Do believe all mag builders want to put out a good product, too much time and money to bring to production. Mike's MD 20 is fine example, did a little overmold and let you know some fitting might be needed. With the rifles, each production run can vary fit for mags and drive user and producer nuts.

[Mephis 82]

Anyone think it'd hurt to add a few thousandths to the bottom of the front of the bolt so it had more of a feed foot to it?

[MrClean4Hire 0]

In my gun surefires did the exact same thing as the uintas did. Only csspecs and OEM work for me.

 

 

I have SGM 25s that run fine and are tight.

 

You just never know.

[jacksmad1 2]

I have 2 Surefire 25 mags and I also just bought 3 Uinta 20 mags. Just got through testing the Uinta mags today for the first time. I am not having any feed problems with either brand. They both fit snugly and have no problems feeding. I have an AK that has had feed problems with a couple of mags and it is always a bear to diagnose what the real cause of the malfunction is.

 

Everyone needs to be aware of "stacked tolerances". It can be the rifle and the mags or just one or the other. If your rifle is on the edge of its manufacturing tolerance and you get a mag that is on the edge of its tolerances, but with each being within their respective tolerances, but just barely, the "stacked tolerances" of the rifle and mag could cause the FTF. Just because a certain mag does work in your particular rifle does not necessarily mean your rifle is correct. All it means is that your rifle can function with that mag. It also does not necessarily mean that mag is within tolerance either, it just means that the mag works in your rifle.

 

I believe Uinta makes a good product and that they are listening to all of us and working on their manufacturing process and design to ensure that their mags will work with as many rifles as is possible for any manufacturer. Let's face it, Saiga's are great rifles, but how many of our rifles are bone stock anymore? Even if they were, do you really believe they are all built to exactly the same dimensions? As long as Uinta is standing behind their product and are willing to work with everyone that has an issue, let's give them the support any startup needs. Our other choice is to continue to pay a single manufacturer any price they think the market will bear for their mags. I would prefer to see some competition to help drive the prices down for all of us so we can continue to enjoy this addiction.

 

 

Just my

[Mephis 82]

That's why I'm considering adding more meat to the bottom of the bolt to aid in feeding. It could be raised to the height of the 3rd lug it appears, without having issues. But really it'd only need the thickness of a credit card added.

 

Uinta may be sending me some springs, and I also think that'll make up for tolerance issues across most rifles.

 

And so far, building up the lug with super glue worked. I filed it back to where I wanted it and fitted each of the magazines to the gun. Amazingly the super glue isn't breaking or chipping, so that might end up working out well.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Tombs

[Ruffian72 548]

That's why I'm considering adding more meat to the bottom of the bolt to aid in feeding. It could be raised to the height of the 3rd lug it appears, without having issues. But really it'd only need the thickness of a credit card added.

 

Uinta may be sending me some springs, and I also think that'll make up for tolerance issues across most rifles.

 

And so far, building up the lug with super glue worked. I filed it back to where I wanted it and fitted each of the magazines to the gun. Amazingly the super glue isn't breaking or chipping, so that might end up working out well.

Great way to fix that problem, until you are for sure. Not a permanent alteration, just enough to see what it needs.

[Mephis 82]

I took my 3rd lug down even more and it seemed to decrease the frequency of issues.

 

I think they'll be alright once I have stronger springs.

[MrClean4Hire 0]

I sent Unitas an email describing my problem a few days ago.

 

Anyone know how long it usually takes them to reply?

[Uinta R&D 0]

I sent you an IM and an email on Sat.

[timy 1,185]

I sent you an IM and an email on Sat.

 

I sent this one a while back (to Uinta, not you specifically) and never received an answer. I suppose I could post it here since it's only my opinion of what needs to be done and I'm not into ranting and raving. Just trying to help.

 

 

Sent 24 February 2011 - 12:56 AM

 

Just thought I'd let you know....I'm having the same problems as gnugung as far as hand cycling rounds through the U308. When I push up on the mag they cycle fine by hand. When I do push up on it, the release lever doesn't even touch the locking tab though. I would strongly recommend modifying the mold to make the locking tab protrude a bit farther down. The same distance as the factory mag would be great.

 

I compared the U308 with the factory mag and the difference is noticeable to the naked eye. I didn't even have to measure anything. If you're worried about getting it a bit too long, don't. MD Arms ran a poll here on their 20 round drum for the S12 as to filing to fit or taking a chance with excess wobble and the overwhelming majority preferred a little filing.

 

I really believe you should make this change ASAP in order to avoid complaints about feeding issues.

 

Good luck,

Tim

[Mephis 82]

I sent you an IM and an email on Sat.

 

I sent this one a while back (to Uinta, not you specifically) and never received an answer. I suppose I could post it here since it's only my opinion of what needs to be done and I'm not into ranting and raving. Just trying to help.

 

 

Sent 24 February 2011 - 12:56 AM

 

Just thought I'd let you know....I'm having the same problems as gnugung as far as hand cycling rounds through the U308. When I push up on the mag they cycle fine by hand. When I do push up on it, the release lever doesn't even touch the locking tab though. I would strongly recommend modifying the mold to make the locking tab protrude a bit farther down. The same distance as the factory mag would be great.

 

I compared the U308 with the factory mag and the difference is noticeable to the naked eye. I didn't even have to measure anything. If you're worried about getting it a bit too long, don't. MD Arms ran a poll here on their 20 round drum for the S12 as to filing to fit or taking a chance with excess wobble and the overwhelming majority preferred a little filing.

 

I really believe you should make this change ASAP in order to avoid complaints about feeding issues.

 

Good luck,

Tim

 

 

I can tell you right now the feeding issue isn't from wobble, while forcing the mag to fit better helps, there's too much internal friction and not enough spring to over-come the 3rd lug pushing shells down. That said, I built up my tabs on my magazines. They need to be wider some how though to really cut down on the wobble, because building up the tab only helps a tiny bit. If they were wider it might also vastly improve reliability, as it seems they're pinching the follower.

 

If it was due to the rear lug alone, putting my AGP 10(saiga 12) round spring in it wouldn't have had any effect... When it made it just as reliable as the factory magazine.

Edited March 22, 2011 by Tombs

[timy 1,185]

 

I can tell you right now the feeding issue isn't from wobble, while forcing the mag to fit better helps, there's too much internal friction and not enough spring to over-come the 3rd lug pushing shells down. That said, I built up my tabs on my magazines. They need to be wider some how though to really cut down on the wobble, because building up the tab only helps a tiny bit. If they were wider it might also vastly improve reliability, as it seems they're pinching the follower.

 

If it was due to the rear lug alone, putting my AGP 10(saiga 12) round spring in it wouldn't have had any effect... When it made it just as reliable as the factory magazine.

 

I can sympathize with your problem but I'm not having it as bad as you are. I admittedly have limited rounds through the mags (20 each in two different ones) but they worked fine at the range doing so. My problem is excessive wobble side to side and front to back plus when I tried to hand cycle like gnugung did, I had the same problem as he did. Just pulling the trigger, they have had no issues as of yet.

 

I'm not sure I follow you when you say "pinching the follower". Do you mean that the mag is flexing/warping and causing the follower to bind? If so, wow!

 

Anyway, even though Uinta doesn't seem to care to respond to me one way or another (maybe I have internet breath) I plan on keeping the mags and doing what I can to tighten them up some. They function for me as is, it's just a matter of irritation that they are so loose.

 

Good luck with yours.

Tim

[evergreenkid29 14]

Have you guys tryed using JB Weld to build your lugs on the magazines for a lasting fix, Once it hardens you can sand it file it shape it ect..

[Mephis 82]

Have you guys tryed using JB Weld to build your lugs on the magazines for a lasting fix, Once it hardens you can sand it file it shape it ect..

 

 

I used plain old super glue. Not sure what it was exactly but it was extremely hard to file, and any and all attempts to chip it off with a knife don't seem to work.

 

So far it isn't denting or looking like it's going to break off. I didn't know JB weld dries hard? I tried epoxy and it dried rather soft. I guess I'll look into JB weld if this doesn't work out.

 

 

Anyone have any opinions on doing the old "promag fix" with these if they're binding on me? You know, wedge something in them and boil them for a few seconds.

[timy 1,185]

Have you guys tryed using JB Weld to build your lugs on the magazines for a lasting fix, Once it hardens you can sand it file it shape it ect..

 

I have some and plan on using it when time permits. Right now I'm working on a wooden stock and hand guards for my 223. I was wondering whether drilling a couple of small (tiny) holes in the lug would give the JB some extra grip. File to fit and a little black paint for aesthetic reasons and hopefully I'll be good to go.

[Mephis 82]

Have you guys tryed using JB Weld to build your lugs on the magazines for a lasting fix, Once it hardens you can sand it file it shape it ect..

 

I have some and plan on using it when time permits. Right now I'm working on a wooden stock and hand guards for my 223. I was wondering whether drilling a couple of small (tiny) holes in the lug would give the JB some extra grip. File to fit and a little black paint for aesthetic reasons and hopefully I'll be good to go.

 

 

I wouldn't drill into that tab. If anything just hit it lightly with some course sandpaper to rough it up before trying to put some sort of glue/JB weld on.

[timy 1,185]

Have you guys tryed using JB Weld to build your lugs on the magazines for a lasting fix, Once it hardens you can sand it file it shape it ect..

 

I have some and plan on using it when time permits. Right now I'm working on a wooden stock and hand guards for my 223. I was wondering whether drilling a couple of small (tiny) holes in the lug would give the JB some extra grip. File to fit and a little black paint for aesthetic reasons and hopefully I'll be good to go.

 

 

I wouldn't drill into that tab. If anything just hit it lightly with some course sandpaper to rough it up before trying to put some sort of glue/JB weld on.

 

You're probably right. Roughen it up it is.