AJ Dual 43 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 http://blog.princelaw.com/2011/1/20/atf-to-issue-new-ruling-on-monday-regarding-new-restrictions-on-shotgun-importation This... does not sound good. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
raleighsaiga 81 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 This sucks. I have an E-TAC build on the way. Unfortunately, NC does not really have a legal way for private citizens to own NFA weapons (despite the fact that the ATA will approve your tax stamp). I can't think of anything other than the Saiga that this could be about. I guess we'll just have to see what they say in four days. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
swells08 128 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Can someone point these pencil pushers to the constitution and have them point out where the term sporting use is defined in the 2nd....anyone? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AJ Dual 43 Posted January 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) Can someone point these pencil pushers to the constitution and have them point out where the term sporting use is defined in the 2nd....anyone? Unfortunately, they're going to operate under the authority given to them and the Sec. of the Treasury by the '68 GCA until the SCOTUS makes them stop. Unfortunately, assuming you've got the "perfect plaintiff and case", it'll take years to get to them, and further assuming we get two plaintiffs in two different districts with two different decisions to create a conflict. And there's no guarantee even with the current court's makeup that they'd rule in our favor. They may decide that the "sporting purposes" clause is valid on imports under commerce or other Federal powers, but if someone stateside decided to do it, they then had the protection of the 2A and the Heller vs. D.C. case etc. Then maybe someone will make a mag/drum fed semi-auto shotgun again someday. If this is about shutting off the Saiga supply, or declaring them DD's, I have to wonder if the timing has anything to do with the Izhmash plant stopping production, and the major U.S. Importers switching around, so getting in the gap before the other makers in Russia pick up the slack. Or, maybe we get "lucky" and it's just a bit more parts-count B.S. or some such thing and we can still have our evil converted Saigas, maybe just with a tad more effort. Edited January 20, 2011 by AJ Dual Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Time for the U.S. built S12 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Outside_Portland 0 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) 3-gun is a sport. I'm kind of a stand-out around these parts for being more liberal then most....but this is ridiculous. How did pistol grips become an issue? A lot of shooters prefer traditional stocks and not because they desire a less functional weapon. There's a real debate over their effectiveness. The real reason for this change will not be to limit crime but to control the gun culture by making sure that we don't have access to "cool" guns and get all excited about them. Edited January 20, 2011 by Outside_Portland 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MaloDave 19 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Glad I am getting mine now. I may pick up a second Saiga 12 this weekend. Just in Case! Malodave 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nattyiceking 33 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 What the fuck is a destructive device? How do they define it, and why can't I own one? Land of the "Free" Home of the Slave. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Boy, oh boy.... Guess I picked a perfect time to start a business centering around the S-12 platform. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nicklebon 27 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) This sucks. I have an E-TAC build on the way. Unfortunately, NC does not really have a legal way for private citizens to own NFA weapons (despite the fact that the ATA will approve your tax stamp). I can't think of anything other than the Saiga that this could be about. I guess we'll just have to see what they say in four days. That's not exactly true. Roy Cooper, attorney general, is on record saying that he believes folks using trusts are skirting NC law, BUT there is no NC case law supporting this stance yet. So using a trust for NFA will leave in a questionable place legally. That said, there are plenty of sheriffs that will sign off just not, assuming your name is accurate, Donnie Harrison. As I was told by the folks over at the PDHSC ... "If you want a suppressor bad enough just move out of Wake county." Cooper has asked sheriffs not sign off but many still do and their signature leaves the holder with zero questions on their legal position to own NFA items. Edited January 20, 2011 by nicklebon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AJ Dual 43 Posted January 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 3-gun is a sport. I'm kind of a stand-out around these parts for being more liberal then most....but this is ridiculous. How did pistol grips become an issue? A lot of shooters prefer traditional stocks and not because they desire a less functional weapon. There's a real debate over their effectiveness. The real reason for this change will not be to limit crime but to control the gun culture by making sure that we don't have access to "cool" guns and get all excited about them. The ATF has flat-out said in the past things like (I paraphrase): "The use of a particular firearm in a military/police-style shooting competition is not sufficient cause for it to meet suitability under the sporting purposes clause of the GCA '68" etc. Which is essentially saying, "To the ATF/Treasury "Sporting Purposes" means:" 1. Fudd Guns. 2. Whatever we say it means. And as to the part in bold, you're right. That's ultimately the motivation behind most all gun control. They always go after "militaristic looking" guns, not for fear of what the next spree shooter might do, but because they're afraid it creates "militaristic thoughts" in the gun owning public. By definition in the 2A, and as upheld in Heller by the SCOTUS itself, the American people already ARE MILITARISTIC, as in a militia. Too late bitches Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Marrok857 51 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Hell a baseball bat is a destructive device, are they going to outlaw baseball? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Outside_Portland 0 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) Thanks for the clarification on the 3-gun issue. What does destructive device even mean when a criminal can make an SBS in five minutes with a hacksaw? BTW:how much will an import ban jack up the price? I wish someone made them here on the States. Edited January 20, 2011 by Outside_Portland Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sjgusmc21 850 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Well, glad I just received mine and finished its conversion. Guess I will have to buy a few drums for it next payday before they are illegal to. Paulski, man, I hope this isn't true as you just started your business! Not to mention, it is just wrong in the first place! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beefcakeb99 572 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 The BATFE is a modern day plague. It would serve all Americans to disband the group or law making thugs. It really seems to me like all they do is screw us out of the rights protected to us, with every swipe of a pen they make. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
psl sniper 963 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 how will this effect the ones already stateside? (aside from jacking up the price) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Anyone know when the last time a semi-automatic, mag-fed shotgun was used in a crime? (This is partially sarcastic, and partially honest) Time for the U.S. built S12 Agreed. I'm no businessman, and I don't know how much it would cost to get a company up and running to produce a US made S12...........but I'm sure they'd make a metric shit-ton of money if they did it. BTW:how much will an import ban jack up the price? I'm going to guess, and say a lot. Look at how much USAS-12's go for. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
psl sniper 963 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 guess its time to stock up on replacement parts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AJ Dual 43 Posted January 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) how will this effect the ones already stateside? (aside from jacking up the price) Well, worst case, they go DD like the USAS-12, and we get an amnesty period. However, AFAIK, there's a LOT more Saiga's stateside than there ever were Streetsweepers and USAS's. They may not be able to handle the paperwork, nor may they be too keen on popping thousands of American's cherries on the whole NFA experience. Who might just then decide "That wasn't so bad..." and then create whole new markets for SBS's, SBR's, suppressors, AOW's and even other DD's like the 40mm launchers. Also, in the link I posted above from PrinceLaw blog, they stated that it did not involve DD's. Of course, you can't trust the ATF further than you can throw the whole agency. Their usual MO is "It's legal until we say it's not anymore..." even with their official tech-branch clarification letters. So perhaps they may just ban further import. Convenient timing, as Izhmash is going tits-up, with Molot picking up the slack, and it seems and the U.S, importers were going to be playing musical chairs too. And of course, the announcement might not "be about anything being declared a DD" but they could announce some rule that indirectly forces our Saiga's to be DD's.. Best case scenario, this is about those stupid Taurus revolvers. Medium case, they just ban the Saiga from further import. Worst case, they declare them DD's and have a tax-free amnesty. Worst worst case, they freeze import, and declare the PG'd ones to be DD's and require they all be converted back and don't allow registrations, or require the $200 tax if you want a drum and PG. Edited January 20, 2011 by AJ Dual Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shadoh 16 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 What about the Xrail? Pretty much any tube fed shotgun can be high capacity. Or is it because ours uses a magazine? Hmm, street sweepers didnt use either but they got the axe. I guess its just because it looks nasty? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AJ Dual 43 Posted January 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) Well, the Streetsweeper was not helped by it's association with South Africa/Apartheid. Or just Cobray in general which already kind of had a "gangster weapon" reputation for the MAC clones they made. And just as FYI, totally unsubstantiated, but this may not have anything to do with the Saiga at all. There's now a rumor this has to do with shotguns that have bayonet lugs. Which might mean the Norinco Remington Model 12 clones in WWI guise might be the target. If that's the case, it's just make-work for the ATF to look busy. Low-hanging fruit and all that. Saying the bayonet lug is a military feature, and therefore "non-sporting". A bunch of CAS/SASS types would be pissed, but if this REALLY is what it's about, then I'll consider this dodging a huge bullet. (pun intended?) Edited January 20, 2011 by AJ Dual Quote Link to post Share on other sites
btr 15 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Dear God, please let this just be about bayo lugs on pump guns.... 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
raleighsaiga 81 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 This sucks. I have an E-TAC build on the way. Unfortunately, NC does not really have a legal way for private citizens to own NFA weapons (despite the fact that the ATA will approve your tax stamp). I can't think of anything other than the Saiga that this could be about. I guess we'll just have to see what they say in four days. That's not exactly true. Roy Cooper, attorney general, is on record saying that he believes folks using trusts are skirting NC law, BUT there is no NC case law supporting this stance yet. So using a trust for NFA will leave in a questionable place legally. That said, there are plenty of sheriffs that will sign off just not, assuming your name is accurate, Donnie Harrison. As I was told by the folks over at the PDHSC ... "If you want a suppressor bad enough just move out of Wake county." Cooper has asked sheriffs not sign off but many still do and their signature leaves the holder with zero questions on their legal position to own NFA items. That is not true. You are confusing federal (ATF) regulations with state law. Just because a sheriff signs off on your ATF paperwork does not protect you from prosecution for violating state law. Just because the ATF approves your trust/LLC/corporation paperwork does not protect you from prosecution for violating state law. In fact, the ATF is prevented by law to consider state laws in approving NFA tax stamps. They must approve or reject solely on the criteria spelled out in the NFA. The issue is that NCGS 14-288.8 has not been enforced against tax stamp holders to date. That does not mean it will NEVER be enforced. NCGS 14-288.8 is very clear about who can and can't own "destructive devices" in NC. It makes NO EXCEPTIONS for non-firearms related trusts, LLCs, or corporations. It likewise makes NO EXCEPTIONS for NFA tax stamp holders who do not also have a federal collectors license (which is limited to antiques and "curios"). http://www.ncga.stat...tatute=14-288.8 This is a Class F felony if you are convicted. Neither the ATF nor the sheriff can protect you from the court should a DA or the AG decide to reel in the owners of "destructive devices." I am not saying you SHOULD have a problem. In fact, I will be actively lobbying to allow all law-abiding NC citizens ownership of NFA weapons with ATF approval. It just isn't anywhere near legally solid, with or without NC CLEO sign-off. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
txhogslayer 0 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Darnit! I just got my S12! Hope I get the conversion parts post-haste! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scattergun10 125 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 They wouldn't be able to do anything with the S-12's and high cap mags/drums we already own though, right ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AJ Dual 43 Posted January 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) Dear God, please let this just be about bayo lugs on pump guns.... Praying here myself. I could kind of see the ATF just turning a blind eye towards the Saiga's. If they were to suddenly ban them or declare them DD's, they'd possibly have some embarrassing questions as to why they allowed so many thousands in before dropping the curtain on them. What suddenly made them so dangerous NOW? Also, with the '94 landslides over the AWB, and the '10 landslides in general, the ATF might be looking for an easy target to look busy/important on the Norinco trench-gun replicas, but be afraid to piss off all gun owners that much if they went after Saigas which are much more widely distributed etc. Also, since China/Norinco got banned from importing military pattern arms by Clinton E.O.... this might just be a "military pattern arm". Also, all the PG and drum mag conversions are being done to our Saiga's are all after-market. In their own bureaucratic minds, they may just not care about that, whereas the Stryker and USAS-12 were sold that way out of the box etc. Another thought, if it IS the Norinco trench replica, it could even just be some back-channel tit-for-tat way of sending a message to China during premier/dictator/president whatever-he-is Hu's visit. Someone in the State Dept. says Obama's feeling dissed, and asks if the ATF can come up with something that they can ban from China. They wouldn't be able to do anything with the S-12's and high cap mags/drums we already own though, right ? Probably not. If they do, it'll be an amnesty like the Stryker/Streetsweeper and USAS-12. A period of time to get a tax-free NFA Destructive Device registration. After that though, someone would have to pay the $200 tax once you sold it, and do the same NFA paperwork. Although again, the legal blog I linked to above states they say it's not about any DD's. So it could just be a ban from further import. Edited January 20, 2011 by AJ Dual Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XXasdf 29 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Most likely this is to specifically target the saiga12 platform. Which I'm sure many see as the most effective semi-auto 12ga platform out in the civilian market. I best go buy another S12 eh. This does not look good gentlemen, get em while you can. We lookin at NFA paper work to keep our saigas? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nicklebon 27 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 This sucks. I have an E-TAC build on the way. Unfortunately, NC does not really have a legal way for private citizens to own NFA weapons (despite the fact that the ATA will approve your tax stamp). I can't think of anything other than the Saiga that this could be about. I guess we'll just have to see what they say in four days. That's not exactly true. Roy Cooper, attorney general, is on record saying that he believes folks using trusts are skirting NC law, BUT there is no NC case law supporting this stance yet. So using a trust for NFA will leave in a questionable place legally. That said, there are plenty of sheriffs that will sign off just not, assuming your name is accurate, Donnie Harrison. As I was told by the folks over at the PDHSC ... "If you want a suppressor bad enough just move out of Wake county." Cooper has asked sheriffs not sign off but many still do and their signature leaves the holder with zero questions on their legal position to own NFA items. That is not true. You are confusing federal (ATF) regulations with state law. Just because a sheriff signs off on your ATF paperwork does not protect you from prosecution for violating state law. Just because the ATF approves your trust/LLC/corporation paperwork does not protect you from prosecution for violating state law. In fact, the ATF is prevented by law to consider state laws in approving NFA tax stamps. They must approve or reject solely on the criteria spelled out in the NFA. The issue is that NCGS 14-288.8 has not been enforced against tax stamp holders to date. That does not mean it will NEVER be enforced. NCGS 14-288.8 is very clear about who can and can't own "destructive devices" in NC. It makes NO EXCEPTIONS for non-firearms related trusts, LLCs, or corporations. It likewise makes NO EXCEPTIONS for NFA tax stamp holders who do not also have a federal collectors license (which is limited to antiques and "curios"). http://www.ncga.stat...tatute=14-288.8 This is a Class F felony if you are convicted. Neither the ATF nor the sheriff can protect you from the court should a DA or the AG decide to reel in the owners of "destructive devices." I am not saying you SHOULD have a problem. In fact, I will be actively lobbying to allow all law-abiding NC citizens ownership of NFA weapons with ATF approval. It just isn't anywhere near legally solid, with or without NC CLEO sign-off. The attorneys I spoke with while trying to pursue a suppressor disagree as does the NC NFA Defense Association. Each hold the position that CLEO sign off leaves the holder free and clear. Cooper's actively trying to pressure CLEOs not to sign also supports this stance. Regardless we both seem to live in Wake County and as previously mentioned we are screwed. Harrison won't even make an appointment to discuss the matter. Been there done that and bought the damned t-shirt. I actually voted for the democrat who against him in November out of spite. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beefcakeb99 572 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Dear God, please let this just be about bayo lugs on pump guns.... AMEN!!! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaKen 338 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Dear God, please let this just be about bayo lugs on pump guns.... AMEN!!! Most Saiga owners have alot of cash wrapped up in thier guns.....They cant just take them from you can they? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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