TexasTech 32 Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Make no mistake this panic scare by the Blog in connection with the Shot Show was put together with the intent to scare the hell out of the consumers to pad the suppliers pockets. Anybody else thinks different than u walk around like the guy in the picture below. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saiga875 10 Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Make no mistake this panic scare by the Blog in connection with the Shot Show was put together with the intent to scare the hell out of the consumers to pad the suppliers pockets. Anybody else thinks different than u walk around like the guy in the picture below. Yeah, I'm gonna say no to that idea. I think he genuinely heard what he said BUT then decided to extrapolate what that means because lawyers think they're smarter than everyone else. It was not an unreasonable assumption but it was still an assumption and should not have been posted on the blog. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mscottrogers 56 Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 At least there are ALOt MORE S12 OWNERS out there now. That should bring more accessories for us in the long run. I remember my first conversion and making my own rail. Now I have a choice of atleast 4 manufacturers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaKen 338 Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 At least there are ALOt MORE S12 OWNERS out there now. That should bring more accessories for us in the long run. I remember my first conversion and making my own rail. Now I have a choice of atleast 4 manufacturers AND STILL NO CHAOS MINI DRUM!!!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vintagedude88 16 Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 The backfire to all this Saiga panic is that eventually it will be set in peoples minds that Saigas are unavailable so rather than considering it, consumers will look towards other guns instead. This happening while the factory is actually still producing and tries to tell the public, "Hey we were just kidding, come on back." Thats when you might see another reduction in Saiga prices in efforts to attract attention to the buying public. Either that or Will's show on the Discovery Channel winds up being a big hit and everyone will be searching on the net about Saigas and the price might go up again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BiggSean 0 Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Guess what, they finally posted the study: http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/012611-study-on-importality-of-certain-shotguns.pdf It discusses the importability of shotguns as it applies to the Gun Control act of 1968. I haven't read through it any thorough detail, but it appears that the Saiga is safe because it does not have any of the restricted features in its currently imported condition. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mscottrogers 56 Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) copied, pasted from sharkbit's thread, you won' t like this at all Yes you are right we can not import anything above 5 rounds for a shotgun mag, this study is saying the entire shotgun is now considered non sporting because it will take a US mag above 5 rounds, that is why the MD20 is pictured. Yes the MD20 can still be made and yes we can still convert but they will change the importability of the shotgun. below states that they will consider that practical shooting (3 GUN) may be a sport but.......will not consider it in this study While the number of members reported for USPSA is similar to the membership for other shotgun shooting organizations,6 the working group ultimately determined that it was not appropriate to use this shotgun study to determine whether practical shooting is "sporting" under § 925(d)(3). A change in ATF's position on practical shooting has potential implications for rifle and handgun classifications as well. Therefore, the working group believes that a more thorough and complete assessment is necessary before ATF can consider practical shooting as a generally recognized sporting purpose. below states how congress got worried about how shotguns were, at the time, all considered to be sporting, so they did another study,,,,,, THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART this study found that military shotguns were converted to sporting condition and imported, so the study looked specifically at that...... The 1998 study was conducted after "members of Congress and others expressed concern that rifles being imported were essentially the same as semiautomatic assault rifles previously determined to be nonimportable" under the 1989 study.24 Specifically, many firearms found to be nonimportable under the 1989 study were later modified to meet the standards outlined in the study. These firearms were then legally imported into the country under section 925(d)(3). ATF commissioned the 1998 study on the sporting suitability of semiautomatic rifles to address concerns regarding these modified firearms so we get here The 1998 study identified the firearms in question and determined that the rifles shared an important feature—the ability to accept a large capacity magazine that was originally designed for military firearms. The report then referred to such rifles as Large Capacity Military Magazine rifles or "LCMM rifles."25 which brings the next point.. you tubing mag dumps killed us The study noted that after 1989, ATF refused to allow importation of firearms that had any of the identified non-sporting features, but made an exception for firearms that possessed only a detachable magazine. Relying on the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, the 1998 study noted that Congress "sent a strong signal that firearms with the ability to expel large amounts of ammunition quickly are not sporting."26 The study concluded by adopting the standards set forth in the 1989 study and by reiterating the previous determination that large capacity magazines are a military feature that bar firearms from importation under section 925(d)(3). So this is the new study by the MAN To conduct this study, the working group reviewed current shooting sports and the sporting suitability of common shotguns and shotgun features. At the outset, the working group recognized the importance of acknowledging the inherent differences between rifles, handguns and shotguns. and this which defines sporting shotguns The 1989 and 1998 studies examined particular features and made sporting suitability determinations based on the generally accepted sporting purposes of rifles. These studies served as useful references because, in recent years, manufacturers have produced shotguns with features traditionally found only on rifles. These features are typically used by military or law enforcement personnel and provide little or no advantage to sportsmen. They started to grow a brain here As stated above, Congress recognized the difficulty in legislating a fixed meaning and therefore gave the Attorney General the responsibility to make such determinations. As a result, the working group did not simply accept the proposition that sporting events were limited to hunting and traditional trap and skeet target shooting. In determining whether an activity is now generally accepted as a sporting purpose, the working group considered a broad range of shooting activities. giving us hope here The working group also considered "practical shooting" competitions. Practical shooting events generally measure a shooter's accuracy and speed in identifying and hitting targets while negotiating obstacle-laden shooting courses. In these competitions, the targets are generally stationary and the shooter is mobile, as opposed to clay target shooting where the targets are moving at high speeds mimicking birds in flight. Practical shooting consist of rifle, shotgun and handgun competitions, as well as "3-Gun" competitions utilizing all three types of firearm on one course. The events are often organized by local or national shooting organizations and attempt to categorize shooters by skill level in order to ensure competitiveness within the respective divisions. The working group examined participation in and popularity of practical shooting events as governed under formal rules such as those of the United States Practical Shooting Association (USPSA) and International Practical Shooting Confederation (IPSC) to see if it is appropriate to consider these events a legitimate "sporting purpose" under section 925(d)(3). Give us the big kiss here Because a determination on the sporting purpose of practical shooting events should be made only after an in-depth study of those events, the working group determined that it was not appropriate to use this shotgun study to make a definitive conclusion as to whether practical shooting events are "sporting" for purposes of section 925(d)(3). Any such study must include rifles, shotguns and handguns because practical shooting events use all of these firearms, and a change in position by ATF on practical shooting or "police/combat-type" competitions may have an impact on the sporting suitability of rifles and handguns. Further, while it is clear that shotguns are used at certain practical shooting events, it is unclear whether shotgun use is so prevalent that it is "generally recognized" as a sporting purpose. If shotgun use is not sufficiently popular at such events, practical shooting would have no effect on any sporting suitability determination of shotguns. Therefore, it would be impractical to make a determination based upon one component or aspect of the practical shooting competitions. told us they loved us here The final step in our review involved an evaluation of shotguns to determine a "type" of firearm that is "generally recognized as particularly suitable or readily adaptable to sporting purposes." neglected any lube here Whereas rifles vary greatly in size, function, caliber and design, historically, there is less variation in shotgun design. However, in the past several years, ATF has witnessed increasingly diverse shotgun design. Much of this is due to the fact that some manufacturers are now applying rifle designs and features to shotguns. This has resulted in a type of shotgun that has features or characteristics that are based on tactical and military firearms. Following a review of numerous shotguns, literature, and industry advertisements, the working group determined that the following shotgun features and design characteristics are particularly suitable for the military or law enforcement, and therefore, offer little or no advantage to the sportsman. and rammed it home here Therefore, we recognized that any shotgun with one or more of these features represent a "type" of firearm that is not "generally recognized as particularly suitable or readily adaptable to sporting purposes" and may not be imported under section 925(d)(3). Then spit on our back here (4) Magazine over 5 rounds, or a Drum Magazine. The 1989 Study recognized that virtually all modern military firearms are designed to accept large, detachable magazines. The 1989 Study noted that this feature provides soldiers with a large ammunition supply and the ability to reload rapidly. The 1998 Study concurred with this and found that, for rifles, the ability to accept a detachable large capacity magazine was not a sporting feature. The majority of shotguns on the market today contain an integral "tube" magazine. However, certain shotguns utilize removable box magazine like those commonly used for rifles. That last statement in their words will kill the IMPORTABILITY of the saiga 12. Gentlemen, we have met the enemy it it is us. Our exuberance with making the S12 fun and putting it on Youtube may have killed us. here they rub it in a little These speed loaders are designed to be preloaded with shotgun shells and can reload a shotgun with a tube-type magazine in less time than it takes to change a detachable magazine. However, the working group determined that magazines capable of holding large amounts of ammunition, regardless of type, are particularly designed and most suitable for military and law enforcement applications. Will this make our guns illegal,,,,NO. Will they come take them away,,,, NO. But we won't be able to get them anymore in the future,,,,, unless they come in "repair part kits without the receive rand barrel. Which all can be made here. I hope I'm wrong, but the writing is right there.....yes this is a study but hopefully they won't do anything about it. I'm hoping they are scared to do anything about banning stuff, although this might sneak though as an import ban Edited January 28, 2011 by utahhandyman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yooper 8 Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 damn. that sucks. hopefully they wont do anything about it. but the ATF likes interfereing in whatever way they can. at least they didnt make them illegal or label them DD's. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yooper 8 Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) what do you guys think about trying to submit this too a newstation for some media coverage. i think the atf would be less likely to do anything if they had more open public opposition. or do you think it would backfire? some people get scared at this stuff........ stupid gunshy people........ CNN and MSNBC would support the atf and try to get it banned. i dont support this idea either way, i just want to know what everyone else thinks, so dont call me crazy or anything lol. Edited January 28, 2011 by yooper14 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mscottrogers 56 Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 check over here http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=62491 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
captainchemical 11 Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 Could they be working toward making any modifications to the s12 illegal? They seem to be listing very specific things as evil. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ZM 1306 2 Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 Dear God, please let this just be about bayo lugs on pump guns.... Even if it is we need to stand up and tell them to F-off, it is not saiga owners on the block yet why let them get close and infringe on other gun owners. I want a full auto, but because most people said "i don't own full auto" i have to shell out more money than i have to get a old and increasingly rare gun! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
theorangeplanet 968 Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 Dear God, please let this just be about bayo lugs on pump guns.... Even if it is we need to stand up and tell them to F-off, it is not saiga owners on the block yet why let them get close and infringe on other gun owners. I want a full auto, but because most people said "i don't own full auto" i have to shell out more money than i have to get a old and increasingly rare gun! Congratulations on your first post being a pointless one revivng an old and outdated thread from almost an entire year ago. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tokinshitload 12 Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) Way to bring it back from the dead! I still say buy now! The BATF could pull a rabbit out of their ass like the rail revision any time they want,and pull the plug on importation. Edited January 8, 2012 by xacex Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ZM 1306 2 Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 The point of my post was not for the year old topic, it was that people were willing toss out the bayonet shotgun enthusiasts to delay a perceived treat on there guns. It don't matter what is in your gun safe if its gun related you should back it up, not double step and be happy that you still got yours for now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
theorangeplanet 968 Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 The point of my post was not for the year old topic, it was that people were willing toss out the bayonet shotgun enthusiasts to delay a perceived treat on there guns. It don't matter what is in your gun safe if its gun related you should back it up, not double step and be happy that you still got yours for now. You go, girl. Welcome to the forums. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
roachtron 49 Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=7180 Shotgun Importation Protections. Prohibits the Department of Justice from requiring imported shotguns to meet a “sporting purposes” test that theBureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) has used to prohibit the importation of shotguns with one or more features disliked by the Agency, such as adjustable stocks, extended magazine tubes, etc. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FORKLIFT352 63 Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 ZM1306 has a valid point. ..all be it late. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ZM 1306 2 Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 The point is not late, it will always apply. People have in the past done the same thing, and will again in the future. Keep this in mind and work together dont be willing to sacrifice others to survive another day. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tunnelrat 10 Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) Dear God, please let this just be about bayo lugs on pump guns.... AMEN!!! Most Saiga owners have alot of cash wrapped up in thier guns.....They cant just take them from you can they? No they won't. I went through this with my Street Sweeper. The original import study was done in 1989. The reclassification became official on Feb 28th, 1994. They gave until May 2001 to register your shotgun, tax exempt - over 7 years. If the Saiga goes down the same way, you will get a letter in the mail something to this effect: No CLEO is needed, just the photo and the fingerprint cards. Pay attention to this box: This is important because you can SBS it tax free, since the weapon will be a DD, and barrel length will be moot. This is what I did with my Street Sweeper, and it was approved. If there is an "upside" to the possible reclassification this would be it. Anyway, it will probably be a while before we see any results of the new study. I feel like it is coming down the pike eventually, given that the precedent is already set...so, it's just a matter of time. Edited January 23, 2012 by tunnelrat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
roachtron 49 Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 This is all a bullshit lie, a law was already passed preventing this. http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=7180. Shotgun Importation Protections. Prohibits the Department of Justice from requiring imported shotguns to meet a “sporting purposes” test that theBureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) has used to prohibit the importation of shotguns with one or more features disliked by the Agency, such as adjustable stocks, extended magazine tubes, etc. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 STOP!!! Read the dates! This topic is over a year old!!! This is no longer a concern, please move along. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tunnelrat 10 Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 STOP!!! Read the dates! This topic is over a year old!!! This is no longer a concern, please move along. You're right about the importation...won't stop them from reclassifying them as DD's though!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 STOP!!! Read the dates! This topic is over a year old!!! This is no longer a concern, please move along. You're right about the importation...won't stop them from reclassifying them as DD's though!! Well, I kinda welcome that, I've always wanted an SBS for free... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alpha Kilo 42 Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Dear God, please let this just be about bayo lugs on pump guns.... AMEN!!! Most Saiga owners have alot of cash wrapped up in thier guns.....They cant just take them from you can they? No they won't. I went through this with my Street Sweeper. The original import study was done in 1989. The reclassification became official on Feb 28th, 1994. They gave until May 2001 to register your shotgun, tax exempt - over 7 years. If the Saiga goes down the same way, you will get a letter in the mail something to this effect: No CLEO is needed, just the photo and the fingerprint cards. Pay attention to this box: This is important because you can SBS it tax free, since the weapon will be a DD, and barrel length will be moot. This is what I did with my Street Sweeper, and it was approved. If there is an "upside" to the possible reclassification this would be it. Anyway, it will probably be a while before we see any results of the new study. I feel like it is coming down the pike eventually, given that the precedent is already set...so, it's just a matter of time. You sir, are a GENIUS!!!!!! That made it worth reading this whole necro-thread and thinking it was happening all over again! Thanks for sharing that and shame on anyone that skimmed over it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wolf88 1 Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Shit I was reading that and at a glance it said January 22nd (today) I was gettin worried thanks for the scare... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tommygunner 13 Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) I think the BATF was more concerned with the Akdal MKA 1919 . It is a 12 ga shotgun Imported from Turkey designed around the AR platform with pistol grips supressor ect. Weapons like that can be classified as a DD The sagia as imported is a sporting gun. Sporting stock no pistol grip no supressor ect. That is how they have gotten aroung the imported DD classification. The arguement is there for the saiga being a sporting arm. I have a freezer full of ducks geese chuckar and partridge to prove that. Problem both guns are imported by RAAC. So because of the AR 12 the BATF may take another look at the saigas. But I dont think they can ban Sagia shotguns as imported unless the law is changed. As for conversions after they get here as long as the parts meet the letter of the law as written there is nothing they can do. It takes congress to change the laws that affect Saigas. So dont worry too much guys. Big brother may be knocking at the door but we can still persuade him to go away. Edited January 23, 2012 by tommygunner Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) I think the BATF was more concerned with the Akdal MKA 1919 . It is a 12 ga shotgun Imported from Turkey designed around the AR platform with pistol grips supressor ect. Weapons like that can be classified as a DD The sagia as imported is a sporting gun. Sporting stock no pistol grip no supressor ect. That is how they have gotten aroung the imported DD classification. The arguement is there for the saiga being a sporting arm. I have a freezer full of ducks geese chuckar and partridge to prove that. Problem both guns are imported by RAAC. So because of the AR 12 the BATF may take another look at the saigas. But I dont think they can ban Sagia shotguns as imported unless the law is changed. As for conversions after they get here as long as the parts meet the letter of the law as written there is nothing they can do. It takes congress to change the laws that affect Saigas. So dont worry too much guys. Big brother may be knocking at the door but we can still persuade him to go away. Uh, yeah, we know what an Akdal MKA 1919 is... and the law HAS been changed in the past year (since this thread was started) pistol grips don't matter anymore and it doesn't come with a suppressor. Suppressors are NRA items anyway and there are suppressors available for the S-12 as well... Edited January 23, 2012 by Caged Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Caged_Bird 474 Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 NFA, my stupid phone won't let me edit... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 NOT THIS SHIT AGAIN Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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