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"Looking out for us"??? Kinda like this: http://www.redstate.com/dhorowitz3/2010/10/05/the-nra-is-helping-preserve-the-anti-gun-democrat-majority/   Or perhaps like this: http://www.examiner.com/

Time for the U.S. built S12

I had no idea about most of those things. It is obvious that you know what you are talking about and these things are concerning. I guess to to me I just thought that they were our first line of defen

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Dear God, please let this just be about bayo lugs on pump guns....

AMEN!!!

 

 

Most Saiga owners have alot of cash wrapped up in thier guns.....They cant just take them from you can they?

Why yes they can if its a DD and you didn't register after the grace period. Oh yeah also a federal prison term for having an unregistered DD. Who knows whats really gonna go down just remember the skies the limit with the ATF. They can ban anything...

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"....regarding the importability of certain shotguns. ATF informed the audience at the ATF Townhall meeting that they wanted to ensure that they were properly and justly enforcing the requirements of a shotgun being for a "sporting purpose.""

 

Ugh. That screams "Saiga-12" to me.

 

If this ruling does effect the Saiga-12, I feel like this forum should protest the ruling along the lines of these guys in this picture:

 

fuck_that_shit.jpg

 

 

:lol:

 

 

 

Seriously though.... fuck that.

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Dear God, please let this just be about bayo lugs on pump guns....

AMEN!!!

 

 

Most Saiga owners have alot of cash wrapped up in thier guns.....They cant just take them from you can they?

Why yes they can if its a DD and you didn't register after the grace period. Oh yeah also a federal prison term for having an unregistered DD. Who knows whats really gonna go down just remember the skies the limit with the ATF. They can ban anything...

 

Oh, I would definetly register....but dont have a clue how to do it.....

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Can someone point these pencil pushers to the constitution and have them point out where the term sporting use is defined in the 2nd....anyone?

 

Absolutely, It is time to call your Congress Critters and ask them to rain in the BATF from passing unconstitutional ordnances.

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"....regarding the importability of certain shotguns. ATF informed the audience at the ATF Townhall meeting that they wanted to ensure that they were properly and justly enforcing the requirements of a shotgun being for a "sporting purpose.""

 

Ugh. That screams "Saiga-12" to me.

 

I'm still nervous...

 

OTOH, if you think about it, as it comes from Izhmash, it's a MonteCarlo stocked semi-automatic shotgun that holds five shells.

 

That's it. Functionally, no different than some Beretta, or Benelli, or some Turkish cheapo import with a tube mag.

 

All the stuff we do to them are after they have the magic number of U.S. parts and are no longer "imported".

 

So maybe now it is about some other shotgun. Or at worst, they'll just refuse further importation. The main problem is the thousands and thousands of Saiga's that have presumably come into the U.S. The ATF NFA branch examiners probably couldn't handle that much paperwork if they were declared DD's and they had an amnesty w/o any tax to show for it. (Which is how they legally have to do it I believe, otherwise it's unconstitutionally ex-post-facto law and taxes.)

 

Further, having that many Saiga owners getting an unwilling introduction into the NFA process, what if we all decide, "Hey...not so bad." (other than the $200 for the next one) and may kick off a whole slew of new NFA applications for SBR's, SBS's, DD's, AOW's, Suppressors, and maybe even start more MG's moving around despite the '86 freeze.

 

I'm not sure the ATF wants that. 011.gif

 

Further, if they do it NOW, after so many years worth of Saiga 12's have come in, it might lead to some embarrassing questions. It makes them look stupid and incompetent (well... more than usual anyway) if they claim they weren't aware of conversions and drums. And if they state they were aware, and felt the Saiga was a "problem" like the Streetsweeper and USAS-12 were, why didn't they act sooner? They look incompetent either way.

 

So I'm wondering if the Saiga just dosen't get a blind eye indefinitely.

 

So doing something else, like picking on the Chinese Win '97 trench gun repro's... Just another rumor within a rumor, but I could see them going after an easy target like that just for the make-work look-good factor. And all they're doing is pissing off a smaller subset of collectors and SASS/CAS types, rather than the whole black rifle/EBR community.

 

Also, Izhmash did cease production because they couldn't keep up QC, Molot was supposed to pick up the slack, and the U.S. distributors were supposedly switching around too. All of which means there was probably going to be a multi-month supply interruption in Saiga's anyway coming down the pipe.

Edited by AJ Dual
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"....regarding the importability of certain shotguns. ATF informed the audience at the ATF Townhall meeting that they wanted to ensure that they were properly and justly enforcing the requirements of a shotgun being for a "sporting purpose.""

 

Ugh. That screams "Saiga-12" to me.

 

I'm still nervous...

 

OTOH, if you think about it, as it comes from Izhmash, it's a MonteCarlo stocked semi-automatic shotgun that holds five shells.

 

That's it. Functionally, no different than some Beretta, or Benelli, or some Turkish cheapo import with a tube mag.

 

All the stuff we do to them are after they have the magic number of U.S. parts and are no longer "imported".

 

So maybe now it is about some other shotgun. Or at worst, they'll just refuse further importation. The main problem is the thousands and thousands of Saiga's that have presumably come into the U.S. The ATF NFA branch examiners probably couldn't handle that much paperwork if they were declared DD's and they had an amnesty w/o any tax to show for it. (Which is how they legally have to do it I believe, otherwise it's unconstitutionally ex-post-facto law and taxes.)

 

Further, having that many Saiga owners getting an unwilling introduction into the NFA process, what if we all decide, "Hey...not so bad." (other than the $200 for the next one) and may kick off a whole slew of new NFA applications for SBR's, SBS's, DD's, AOW's, Suppressors, and maybe even start more MG's moving around despite the '86 freeze.

 

I'm not sure the ATF wants that. 011.gif

 

Further, if they do it NOW, after so many years worth of Saiga 12's have come in, it might lead to some embarrassing questions. It makes them look stupid and incompetent (well... more than usual anyway) if they claim they weren't aware of conversions and drums. And if they state they were aware, and felt the Saiga was a "problem" like the Streetsweeper and USAS-12 were, why didn't they act sooner? They look incompetent either way.

 

So I'm wondering if the Saiga just dosen't get a blind eye indefinitely.

 

So doing something else, like picking on the Chinese Win '97 trench gun repro's... Just another rumor within a rumor, but I could see them going after an easy target like that just for the make-work look-good factor. And all they're doing is pissing off a smaller subset of collectors and SASS/CAS types, rather than the whole black rifle/EBR community.

 

Also, Izhmash did cease production because they couldn't keep up QC, Molot was supposed to pick up the slack, and the U.S. distributors were supposedly switching around too. All of which means there was probably going to be a multi-month supply interruption in Saiga's anyway coming down the pipe.

 

 

 

Those are some really, really good points AJ. I'm with you, I really doubt the ATF would call out the S-12 after it's been available for so long. I guess all we can really do is wait out the weekend and figure out if they're willing to create an unnecessary shitstorm eh?

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I'm trying not to get too worked up over this until we actually hear what it is all about.

 

Getting angry and finger pointing or saying "I told you so" at this point does no good. At least clarification will come on Monday.

 

Regardless of what they say, it is still all crap. This is what comes of an overly powerful executive branch of government.

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I'm trying not to get too worked up over this until we actually hear what it is all about.

 

Getting angry and finger pointing or saying "I told you so" at this point does no good. At least clarification will come on Monday.

 

Regardless of what they say, it is still all crap. This is what comes of an overly powerful executive branch of government.

 

 

 

Agreed. Playing the blame game does nothing, though it's only natural to vent frustration and anger at something or someone.

 

 

We must wait until Monday! By all means though, If I could afford a couple more S-12's right now, I'd buy 'em tomorrow :)

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The ATF seriously needs to be disbanded and replaced with something better. They really are criminals that do whatever they want. Let's put the EPA in charge of this, seriously. At least they recognize their boundaries.

 

Would have been better if you had ended your message after the word "disbanded".

;-)

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Convenient timing, as Izhmash is going tits-up, with Molot picking up the slack

 

 

Actually Izhmash acquired Molot a while ago, but Molot may become independant again due to the restructing of Izhmash this time around. Molot might also go under the control of Tula instead. It remains to be seen.

 

 

 

 

 

Z

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I doubt it will go DD. At the most it will go to the no import list with the dragunov and what is here will be the last.

 

Still all we know it is about the importability of a shotgun. Everything else is speculation.

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The ATF seriously needs to be disbanded and replaced with something better. They really are criminals that do whatever they want. Let's put the EPA in charge of this, seriously. At least they recognize their boundaries.

Ever try to repo an old gas station?

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No sense in getting worked up or jumping to conclusions until there is some official word.

 

So doing something else, like picking on the Chinese Win '97 trench gun repro's... Just another rumor within a rumor, but I could see them going after an easy target like that just for the make-work look-good factor. And all they're doing is pissing off a smaller subset of collectors and SASS/CAS types, rather than the whole black rifle/EBR community.

 

I've been eying these trench guns for a while, so I may have to run out and find one if it concerns them. A few things though. They import two models the trench gun configuration and the configuration sans heat shield and bayonet lug. CAS tend to get the latter so I'm not sure they would be devastated if the other configuration is still allowed.

 

Also I don't think the S12 community is nearly as broad as the whole "black rifle EBR" community. I have no way of knowing if how the S12 community compares to the CSA community in terms of size, and political clout.

 

 

The states, on a balance, have done a very good job at progressing the RKBA in the state legislatures over the past decade or so (see e.g. explosion of shall issue states). On the federal level we have won some important court cases. I wish we could get some federal legislation pushed through to further ameliorate the situation. Its a shame the senate wasn't wrested from the liberals along with the house to give us a better shot. Hopefully 2012 can finish what got started in 2010 (and not just for RKBA but that's another story).

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While we have reason to be concerned,a few guys on another gun board who know people at the BATFE are claiming that it is an import ban of some sort of trench gun replicas that were imported with bayo lugs.

 

Between this and the hicap mag frenzy there won't be a Saiga or high cap handgun mag left for sale in the entire country. :rolleyes:

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Well.... not to be a complete asshole, but....

 

Where the fuck is GAYVar and their superhero second amendment politician sharry preid when we need them? :rolleyes:

 

Ooops.... silly me. GAYVar has a stockpile of highly sought after potential DDs now. See how that works?

 

ETA: .... and what were some of you saying about me buying so many MD-20s?

 

:angel:

post-22401-0-10074100-1295578831_thumb.jpg

Edited by evlblkwpnz
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Maybe its just about this:

 

http://www.freerepub...s/2629647/posts

 

I can't get that link to open, but another candidate is those Turkish AR pattern shotguns that have started coming in. Is this what you were trying to post?

 

No, I was just linking an article that talks about the ATF ruling on pistol grip shotguns. I just noticed that was a thread already on the subject:

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=61761

 

They never came out with an official word on that, did they? Just a tech letter, which doesn't really mean much. I could be way off, I need to do some more reading.

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If it is about the Norinco trench guns it shows just how asinine the law is. I'd love to see someone attempt to explain with a straight face why we need to prevent one of the below pictured guns from being imported while the other one is just fine. Pretty silly stuff. I'm glad my taxes are going to fund an agency so it can make such important and critical decision and distinctions.

 

350px-97_and_Norinco.jpg

 

I'm going to have to source one of these. I saw two at the shop I was at the other day and thought about getting one but they weren't the trench gun configuration so I bought something else instead.

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