banshee 69 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) http://blog.princela...gun-importation From the Prince Law Offices. Today, the ATF announced at the 2011 SHOT Show that a new ruling would be issued on Monday, January 24, 2011, regarding the importability of certain shotguns. ATF informed the audience at the ATF Townhall meeting that they wanted to ensure that they were properly and justly enforcing the requirements of a shotgun being for a "sporting purpose." This is definitely concerning given the huge demand for certain shotguns like the Saiga platform, which has seen a noticeable increase in demand. While ATF would not comment on which shotguns will be named in this ruling, I would not be surprised to hear that the Saiga is going to be mentioned in the ruling, given the large capacity magazines and feeding devices that are now available. Some may remember that ATF determined that the USAS-12 was a Destructive Device because it had "no sporting purpose," and had a barrel diameter of more than 1/2 inch. The determination that it had no sporting purpose was largely because of the semi-automatic shotgun having large magazine and drum feeding devices, for which, ATF said there would be no sporting purpose. When I inquired whether this ruling would encompass any DD determinations, the response was that it would not; however, I believe the affect will be that certain US-made shotguns may end up becoming DD's by this new ruling. Edited January 20, 2011 by Banshee Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KC913 324 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Already posted in S12 forum. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=62170 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 I predicted this when the first 10rd magazines came out and asked them to make their mags under 10rds specifically because I didn't want my Saigas to become Destructive Devices. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XXasdf 29 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Well like I posted in the other thread looks like were boned. No DD determination from what the link states but who knows when it comes to the ATF. Most likely an import restriction that would bar the S12 from entering the US. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chevyman097 2,579 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Well hell, I knew I shoulda got a s12 a long time ago. I hope its not as bad as it sounds. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Well like I posted in the other thread looks like were boned. No DD determination from what the link states but who knows when it comes to the ATF. Most likely an import restriction that would bar the S12 from entering the US. The USAS-12 Streetsweeper were banned by FIAT without any official oversite. This will be one of Obama and Holder's fascists gifts to the nation before they are thrown out. You will see that I am right only once it is to late. Decide now fellers, they will decalare your Saiga 12s as DDs and you will be required to enter their Nazi registration scheme. Are you gonna register? When my USAS-12 was declared a DD I was out of the country and came back to find a shotgun sitting in my gunsafe in storage was a restricted item out of the grace period! I sawed up my $1200 USAS-12 and sold it as a parts kit for $800. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
banshee 69 Posted January 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Well like I posted in the other thread looks like were boned. No DD determination from what the link states but who knows when it comes to the ATF. Most likely an import restriction that would bar the S12 from entering the US. The USAS-12 Streetsweeper were banned by FIAT without any official oversite. This will be one of Obama and Holder's fascists gifts to the nation before they are thrown out. You will see that I am right only once it is to late. Decide now fellers, they will decalare your Saiga 12s as DDs and you will be required to enter their Nazi registration scheme. Are you gonna register? I don't agree with it, but you don't really have a choice. IF it is not registered it will forever be contraband. I also don't think any firearm is worth a $10,000 fine and 10 years in prison 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fumes 84 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 So what's the bottom line? If you own an S12 right now you'd have to register it as a DD in order to legally keep it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stink Star 13 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 i hope it doesnt come to that... IL doesnt have any provisions for DD's or things like SBR's so i will be forced to sell it Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Boba Debt 350 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Hmmm. I wonder if I should raise the price on the S-12 I'm selling 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gunfanatic 221 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 I doubt it will go DD. At the most it will go to the no import list with the dragunov and what is here will be the last. Still all we know it is about the importability of a shotgun. Everything else is speculation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
David Mark 2,452 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Hmmm. I wonder if I should raise the price on the S-12 I'm selling Yeah, let's not think about all the forum business members this might adversely effect and all the jobs it might cost. Let's think about how it could benefit us. Asshole. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kliegl 304 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 You cannot constitutionally make something that was legal to own, illegal. It would be a violation of the ex post facto law rule. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) I doubt it will go DD. At the most it will go to the no import list with the dragunov and what is here will be the last. Still all we know it is about the importability of a shotgun. Everything else is speculation. You cannot constitutionally make something that was legal to own, illegal. It would be a violation of the ex post facto law rule. some of you " n00bs" need to look up the history of the USAS-12 which was banned by fiat without a vote or even a good explanation by a LESS LIBERAL ADMINISTRATION! Edited January 21, 2011 by SOPMOD Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sumsky 115 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 ATF is not going to ban importation of Saigas. What they will do is make it mandatory to pay the $200 Tax Stamp if any mods are done to the Gun. Just another way to get more cash. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kliegl 304 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 I doubt it will go DD. At the most it will go to the no import list with the dragunov and what is here will be the last. Still all we know it is about the importability of a shotgun. Everything else is speculation. You cannot constitutionally make something that was legal to own, illegal. It would be a violation of the ex post facto law rule. some of you " n00bs" need to look up the history of the USAS-12 which was banned by fiat without a vote or even a good explanation by a LESS LIBERAL ADMINISTRATION! You'll note that I said constitutionally.....noob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
volkov 318 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 anyone know the number of USAS's in america vs Saiga-12s? I have no idea but I reckon that if there are enough the little cowards won't bother DDing them.. at least not until they've restricted importation for a few years. Once again pathetic though and without any logic. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigsal 757 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Hmmm. I wonder if I should raise the price on the S-12 I'm selling yeah Im really shocked no one is paying top-$ for your saiga 12 boba.... its almost as if all the stuff you did to it TOOK VALUE AWAY from the original shotgun... Seriously though guys, it was fun while it lasted... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackback 135 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) Does an a 12ga's status as an SBS supersede any DD declaration? Or is it vice versa? This is along the logic of MG status trumping SBR/SBS as a firearm can only be in one NFA category. Edited January 21, 2011 by 690gr Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 My prediction is the S-12 will be declared "unsporting" and moved to the no-import list. The current ones will remain in circulation but the value will likely spike (except for Boba's) 8 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigsal 757 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 My prediction is the S-12 will be declared "unsporting" and moved to the no-import list. The current ones will remain in circulation but the value will likely spike (except for Boba's) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Or perhaps the ATF is going against the grain and allowing Vepr-12s realizing that they allowed the Saiga as sporting thus the Vepr should be allowed as well? One can dream 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackback 135 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 My prediction is the S-12 will be declared "unsporting" and moved to the no-import list. The current ones will remain in circulation but the value will likely spike (except for Boba's) Makes me wonder if Mossberg, Remington, Benelli USA, et al. lobby for a ruling like this as their expensive tacticals were being outsold by a relatively cheap Russian import. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
454496 71 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 So far we know it is Shotgun and Importation Nothing about DD but we will see Monday. Could be enforcing the 922r? I though I heard that S12's will not made anymore because of bankruptcy? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
volkov 318 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) terrible news.. I had hoped to one day have like 5 of em =( and I really don't see them stopping at import.. maybe temporarily.. Edited January 21, 2011 by volkov Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 So far we know it is Shotgun and Importation Nothing about DD but we will see Monday. Could be enforcing the 922r? I though I heard that S12's will not made anymore because of bankruptcy? Heck they could simply be recognizing shooting sports as sporting. Remember they allowed temporary Importing of shotguns for a sporting event not even a year ago. Less doom and gloom until something bad happens. OK? Vepr-12s allowed over for shooting event 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 My prediction is the S-12 will be declared "unsporting" and moved to the no-import list. The current ones will remain in circulation but the value will likely spike (except for Boba's) Makes me wonder if Mossberg, Remington, Benelli USA, et al. lobby for a ruling like this as their expensive tacticals were being outsold by a relatively cheap Russian import. I wouldn't put it past them. I remember when Arizona was debating it's constitutional carry law last year, some of the biggest financial supporters to its opposition were CCW instructors who were about to have their pockets a whole lot lighter. Not to mention the machine gun owners who cringe at the idea of the Hughes Amendment being repealed or the infamous sell outs like Bill Ruger or just the usual fear-mongering local gun shop owner trying to hock overpriced 33rd Glock mags. I guess people take for granted that gun dealers, instructors, manufacturers, etc. are supporters of the 2A because of the usual stickers in their windows and all. But the reality is, they're typically greedy scum just like anyone else. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 What I don't get is what's up with the 5 day early tease? So far we know it is Shotgun and Importation Nothing about DD but we will see Monday. Could be enforcing the 922r? I though I heard that S12's will not made anymore because of bankruptcy? Heck they could simply be recognizing shooting sports as sporting. Remember they allowed temporary Importing of shotguns for a sporting event not even a year ago. Less doom and gloom until something bad happens. OK? Vepr-12s allowed over for shooting event With an announcement being made at SHOT, os all places, one may think you have a point. They usually don't give us time to slap some lube on before they bend us over. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackback 135 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 My prediction is the S-12 will be declared "unsporting" and moved to the no-import list. The current ones will remain in circulation but the value will likely spike (except for Boba's) Makes me wonder if Mossberg, Remington, Benelli USA, et al. lobby for a ruling like this as their expensive tacticals were being outsold by a relatively cheap Russian import. I wouldn't put it past them. I remember when Arizona was debating it's constitutional carry law last year, some of the biggest financial supporters to its opposition were CCW instructors who were about to have their pockets a whole lot lighter. Not to mention the machine gun owners who cringe at the idea of the Hughes Amendment being repealed or the infamous sell outs like Bill Ruger or just the usual fear-mongering local gun shop owner trying to hock overpriced 33rd Glock mags. I guess people take for granted that gun dealers, instructors, manufacturers, etc. are supporters of the 2A because of the usual stickers in their windows and all. But the reality is, they're typically greedy scum just like anyone else. Now that you put it like that you got me thinking... All businesses lobby to protect/enhance their interests and income streams from/by the external influences of our lawmakers at all levels of gov't. From the CCW instructors at the state level to the manufacturers at the national level... you know if you just ask yourself que bono Lt. "who benefits" and just follow the money the likely parties become more apparent in almost all things. Ya know... I stated a hunch above... now I am really beginning to wonder. IIRC the S-12 is the only mag fed non-NFA popular shotgun sold in the USA, none of the listed companies make a mag fed. The saiga platform can be tailored to fill so many rolls from HD, competition race gun, LEO, plinking, hunting, skeet(ok maybe not really well) .... and the biggest of them all... military (home of multimillion dollar multiyear contracts). The saiga is gaining more and more converts everyday.... taking sales from the big boys and potentially screwing up their big time contracts. Now it has a weakness, its imported which subjects it to that "sporting" clause"... hmmm... if you can't build a better product for less... knock your competitor out of the race. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
physicsnerd 139 Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 So far we know it is Shotgun and Importation Nothing about DD but we will see Monday. Could be enforcing the 922r? I though I heard that S12's will not made anymore because of bankruptcy? Heck they could simply be recognizing shooting sports as sporting. Remember they allowed temporary Importing of shotguns for a sporting event not even a year ago. Less doom and gloom until something bad happens. OK? Vepr-12s allowed over for shooting event I'm going to echo what I said in the other thread on this topic. We need to wait to see what the actual ruling is. There is no sense getting worked up when we don't know about what to be worked up. This reminds me of a time my mom sent me an internet forward. She was really worked up and upset. I looked into it and it turned out to be completely made up. It frustrated me enough that I called her from work to tell her that it was important to focus your energies where they can be the most useful. Getting upset over mythical things (like her email forward) just distracted her from things that were more important. If it turns out to be bad news on Monday then we have a reason to be upset. At this point we're putting the cart before the horse. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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