DogMan 2,343 Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 OK, I finally have to step in here and say something now. All these emotional comments that are assuming doom and gloom here are just totally uncalled for. I don't know what this "big announcement" is going to be but I suspect it's not going to be anything to do with Saigas. Of course I could be wrong but right now we don't know anything so there is no reason for anyone to be upset about anything YET. I don't think you seem to get it. Not just this particular scare. It's all of them. If there's nothing to be scared of, something is manufactured to be scared of. I'm talking about the fact that this is supposed to be the land of the free. Free to be free. Not free to fear the government's intrusion. Or free to lose everything because the government makes a snap decision that effects people without a vote being put to the people. That's not the definition of free that I was raised to have. The simple fact that this is even a concern is what annoys me. I was not referring to your comment, but the one from Matt that you quoted. It's just too premature to be that broken up about something that hasn't even happened. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 Shooter, what kind of legislation do you speak of??? These JBT's are in no legislative position. They are executive playing from the cuff types that really have no constitutional authority to be doing all of this "Legislation", "ruling", whatever. You get my point, eh? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madmax4x4 68 Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 The best part is the announcement will be so vague that everyone will be as confused about it as 922R and we will be hearing "a friend told me saiga 12's are illegal now" and "you now need 18 US made parts on every shotgun" or how about "your not allowed to have a pistol grip on a saiga 12 anymore" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigj480 203 Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 (edited) If it does go south, I just hope I still get my 2 guns from GoGun/E-TAC. Some would argue that that isn't the case Beef, the 1968 Gun Control Act is a legal statute and the ATF has the responsibility to determine "sporting" weapons classifications under this act. They would put forward that you can say what you want to about it being fair, or about it being far from the original intentions of the founders, but you cannot say the action is illegal or un-constiutional.... ...I wouldn't argue this, but some would. Something can be "legal", or even "legally" required, in the eyes of the gov and still be unconstitutional. Technically it's illegal if unconstitutional, but unfortunately we have to wait for the courts to deem it so before the law or, in this case, "ruling" to be overturned. Also, being "far from the original intentions of the founders" equals "illegal or un-constiutional". How can something defy the intent of the founders in respect to the constitution but somehow be constitutional? Because the government has misinterpreted the constitution or the intent? That is their mistake and has no actual bearing on weather something is constitutional. At this point, I don't blame the alphabet gang, I blame those who make them what they are. They do what is expected and required of them. Edited January 22, 2011 by bigj480 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
danklab 57 Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 (edited) I finally went and put some cash down on a S12 today. Have been planning it for months. Was just waiting on the tax return to do it. The guy at the gun shop, said he did not expect it to be Saiga rifles but maybe regarding the new Taraus Judge in 28 gauge pistol and the other shotgun caliber pistols. Hopefully that is the way of the issue, if it is a negative ruling. Maybe we are getting lucky and they are removing the USAS-12 from the DD list. That's a good point about the Judge. Technically you've got a shotgun there with a 2 inch barrel. A ruling against those would still suck shit, but I'd rather it be that than an s-12. edit: Can't remember the specifics on barrel diameter though. I think that's what makes the Judge ok right now. Edited January 22, 2011 by danklab 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macaholic 5 Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 (edited) My prediction is the S-12 will be declared "unsporting" and moved to the no-import list. The current ones will remain in circulation but the value will likely spike (except for Boba's) Makes me wonder if Mossberg, Remington, Benelli USA, et al. lobby for a ruling like this as their expensive tacticals were being outsold by a relatively cheap Russian import. I wouldn't put it past them. I remember when Arizona was debating it's constitutional carry law last year, some of the biggest financial supporters to its opposition were CCW instructors who were about to have their pockets a whole lot lighter. Not to mention the machine gun owners who cringe at the idea of the Hughes Amendment being repealed or the infamous sell outs like Bill Ruger or just the usual fear-mongering local gun shop owner trying to hock overpriced 33rd Glock mags. I guess people take for granted that gun dealers, instructors, manufacturers, etc. are supporters of the 2A because of the usual stickers in their windows and all. But the reality is, they're typically greedy scum just like anyone else. Holy Sh*t!! I thought I was the only one who felt that way! Edited January 22, 2011 by macaholic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macaholic 5 Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 (edited) There has to be something we can do to combat this type of nonsense! I mean what about the God all mighty NRA? And what about all of our newly elected Tea Party backed elected Republicans? It seems like we should have the ability to go on the offensive, and attack this along with every other gun ban sceme, that gets swept under the rug, after it passes without one vote through Congerss. I just do not believe that we are helpless in these maters. Edited January 22, 2011 by macaholic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stansplace 414 Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 Isn't there something we can do to combat this type of nonsense? I mean what about the God all mighty NRA? And what about all of our newly elected Tea Party backed elected Republicans? It seems like we should go on the offensive and attack this along with every other gun ban sceme that just gets swept under the rug. I just do not beleive that we are helpless in these maters. Classy, you want to field this one? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MT Predator 2,294 Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 (edited) I keep finding more of this on the net. ATF Ruling Looks like that Arsenal S12 at my local shop may have to be procured Monday. Edited January 22, 2011 by MT Predator Quote Link to post Share on other sites
454496 71 Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 Here is some information but I dont know if it has anything to do with shotgun importation. http://gunnuts.net/2011/01/21/shot-show-shotgun-update/ http://www.shootingillustrated.com/5012/shot-show-caleb-giddings/ (Dont know which post to post this on so it is on both) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stansplace 414 Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 I keep finding more of this on the net. ATF Ruling Looks like that Arsenal S12 at my local shop may have to be procured Monday. If it's still there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macaholic 5 Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 (edited) Hmmm. I wonder if I should raise the price on the S-12 I'm selling I hope you're being sarcastic. If not, then you'll end up on the "Go fuck yourself list" with many gun owners, if you're the type to profit-whore like that. "Free America", "Capitalism", yeah yeah yeah, I get it. But it's still a dick move, and it's why I won't ever spend a dime with those pieces of shit at Cheaper Than Dirt. I hope their place burns down. Selling PMags for like 60 fucking dollars and lying about why they jacked the price up. Fuckers. Well said Shooter! It's that greed driven outlook that screws all of us. We need to fight back legeslatively in these matters, rather than feed the monster through our own greed. Edited January 22, 2011 by macaholic 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yakdung 2,926 Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 (edited) I'm wondering if Kcompany will use its connections with Harry Reid to put a check on this. The articles below were written by BATFE head Andrew Traver. This will give you a little insight on his line of thinking. Doesn't look good from where I'm sitting. http://www.csmonitor...-antigun-zealot http://www.nbcchicag...y-69620227.html Yakdung Edited January 22, 2011 by yakdung 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 In case anyone from IL was wondering.... It appears to be OKAY to own DD's in our state, according to guntrustlawyer.com (of course all the rest of the fun stuff is banned) http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/states/illinois/ What is a "Class 9 DD", anyone? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393 Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 (edited) There has to be something we can do to combat this type of nonsense! I mean what about the God all mighty NRA? The NRA is important and backs a lot of money in the pro-gun movement, however they have taken a very soft stance on pretty much every issue. The two biggest decisions - McDonald and Heller, were both discouraged by the NRA. In fact, the NRA warned Gura not to take Heller to the Supreme Court. Many of the ongoing victories in gun rights are from Second Amendment Foundation, and when the NRA does get involved, they usually only get involved once a case has received national attention and/or is in a Federal court, and has a good chance of winning. They simply aren't backing risky or important things. In fact, the NRA still is doing virtually nothing to help gun rights. They are concerned, for the most part, simply with easy battles in already pro-gun places, and not any actual progress. While it may suck to have laws like 922r on the books, the reality is much of the country is in a lot worse shape. There are still several states with de-facto ban on carry, and a big number of states with restrictive pistol permit laws or vague "emergency" clauses. And some of these things come from places you may not expect - did you know NC and MN are among states that require handgun purchase permits? How about supposedly pro-gun places like FL or TX that have a ban on open carry? Groups like the 2AF have a lot bigger things to deal with than things like 922r unfortunately. Not to mention, they are issues that don't have much popular support. In fact I'd wager a lot of "Fudd" gun owners probably don't even give a shit about stuff like 922r anyway. Ever met a guy in Mossy Oak that thinks "them AKs are commie guns" and that shotgun you have is a "piece of junk that can't hit clays"? I have met plenty and unfortunately for every die hard CCW-er with an AK at home are 3 Fudds who only take their gun out for Deer season. Edited January 22, 2011 by Classy Kalashnikov 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kliegl 304 Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 Agreed with all the Class man said....except I CAN hit clays with my saiga. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
uzitiger 193 Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 That and the NRA does NOTHING for the NJ area.. I'm an NRA instructor.. but I am NOT a member.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
termite 463 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 The BS has already started at the gun stores. I stopped by one this afternoon on the way home from seeing the grandbabies. I asked the asshat behind the counter if the Saiga 7.62x39 was the only Saiga he had, he said Yep, but I got 4 more S12's coming in next week, they'll be $750.00 each. I asked him, DO WHAT, Had they been converted yet, he said NOPE you can't convert them to full auto, and he proceeded to inform me that they where going to be banned and if I wanted one, to get it now, but the price was because the importer raised the prices by $200.00 per gun, and also if I wanted a drum for it, that they had the Pro mag drums for $120.00. I did ask him, in front of about 6 more people in the store, "you're shitting me aren't you". He said NOPE, that Pro Mag was the ONLY one that made drums for the S12, and that they would soon go away. So I told him that if that happened to contact Mike @MDArms and buy all he wanted for a hell of a better price. He started to get really pissed when I asked him if the S12 guns that he had coming in would be 922R compliant with the drum. I was then informed that the 922R stuff was for MG's and the "bad" stuff. Oh well, atleast I had fun.... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) The BS has already started at the gun stores. I stopped by one this afternoon on the way home from seeing the grandbabies. I asked the asshat behind the counter if the Saiga 7.62x39 was the only Saiga he had, he said Yep, but I got 4 more S12's coming in next week, they'll be $750.00 each. I asked him, DO WHAT, Had they been converted yet, he said NOPE you can't convert them to full auto, and he proceeded to inform me that they where going to be banned and if I wanted one, to get it now, but the price was because the importer raised the prices by $200.00 per gun, and also if I wanted a drum for it, that they had the Pro mag drums for $120.00. I did ask him, in front of about 6 more people in the store, "you're shitting me aren't you". He said NOPE, that Pro Mag was the ONLY one that made drums for the S12, and that they would soon go away. So I told him that if that happened to contact Mike @MDArms and buy all he wanted for a hell of a better price. He started to get really pissed when I asked him if the S12 guns that he had coming in would be 922R compliant with the drum. I was then informed that the 922R stuff was for MG's and the "bad" stuff. Oh well, atleast I had fun.... Sounds about what I'd hear at some of the local shops around here. Those prices are about right on par, too, for Saiga prices around here.......and this was LONG before all this ban talk. No joke, one shop had numerous x39 Saigas (unconverted, completely factory stock) for $700+ when I first moved down here last summer. Another shop had ProMag 10 round stick mags (S12) for about $60. :ded: The same place was selling the Korean knock-off Glock mags for $20, when you can get them online for like $6. I swear, as backwards as it seems.....a lot of gunshops are the LAST place I would go to buy a gun or gun parts. Go fucking figure. Edited January 23, 2011 by -Shooter- Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 In no particular order: Top 4 People You Should Never Take Firearms Legal Advice From: 1. LEO 2. Gun Shop Owner/Employee 3. Guy with a Bullpup SKS and NASCAR tattoos 4. 14 year old kid with a dozen airsoft guns 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
danklab 57 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 ....... did you know NC and MN are among states that require handgun purchase permits? How about supposedly pro-gun places like FL or TX that have a ban on open carry? Groups like the 2AF have a lot bigger things to deal with than things like 922r unfortunately. Not to mention, they are issues that don't have much popular support. In fact I'd wager a lot of "Fudd" gun owners probably don't even give a shit about stuff like 922r anyway. Ever met a guy in Mossy Oak that thinks "them AKs are commie guns" and that shotgun you have is a "piece of junk that can't hit clays"? I have met plenty and unfortunately for every die hard CCW-er with an AK at home are 3 Fudds who only take their gun out for Deer season. Yep.. there are actually a couple things on the pistol permit forum that seem to further restrict the issuance of permits beyond written laws from I can find as well. We also have a law that we cannot bear arms during a state of emergency.. thanks to Bev Perdue.. who can barely form a complete sentence. I have no idea how she was elected in the first place. We have too many ignorant straight ticket Dem. voters here I suppose. They're just not aware of how stupid she actually is. The BS has already started at the gun stores. I stopped by one this afternoon on the way home from seeing the grandbabies. I asked the asshat behind the counter if the Saiga 7.62x39 was the only Saiga he had, he said Yep, but I got 4 more S12's coming in next week, they'll be $750.00 each. I asked him, DO WHAT, Had they been converted yet, he said NOPE you can't convert them to full auto, and he proceeded to inform me that they where going to be banned and if I wanted one, to get it now, but the price was because the importer raised the prices by $200.00 per gun, and also if I wanted a drum for it, that they had the Pro mag drums for $120.00. I did ask him, in front of about 6 more people in the store, "you're shitting me aren't you". He said NOPE, that Pro Mag was the ONLY one that made drums for the S12, and that they would soon go away. So I told him that if that happened to contact Mike @MDArms and buy all he wanted for a hell of a better price. He started to get really pissed when I asked him if the S12 guns that he had coming in would be 922R compliant with the drum. I was then informed that the 922R stuff was for MG's and the "bad" stuff. Oh well, atleast I had fun.... Sounds like a shop I stopped going to around election time. They pretty much said the same shit, and were full of misinformation. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
psl sniper 963 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) Maybe it has to do with the names they are marketing things with... With the KelTec Tactical Bullpup Shotgun and the Mossberg Chainsaw, I think they may need to just re-brand them as the "Keltec Short Length Deer Gitter" and the "Mossberg Duck Squisher". Then they go from being "tactical" to being "sporting" with just a name change! In seriousness, the above guns may be on the shit list more so than the Saiga (right now it is all supposition that Saigas are the target) because they have scary names and non-conventional ergonomics that imply non-sporting uses similar to "Street Sweeper". Saigas have thankfully never been stupidly marketed as "Tactical Head Exploders" or "Schoolyard Dominators" and their import configuration is very "sporting" under the evil features definitions they have in 922r. I'm really trying to stay optimistic that this won't affect us! or s.p.a.s.12 sporting purpose automatic shotgun, that should work right? oh wait... Edited January 23, 2011 by psl sniper Quote Link to post Share on other sites
psl sniper 963 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 I finally went and put some cash down on a S12 today. Have been planning it for months. Was just waiting on the tax return to do it. The guy at the gun shop, said he did not expect it to be Saiga rifles but maybe regarding the new Taraus Judge in 28 gauge pistol and the other shotgun caliber pistols. Hopefully that is the way of the issue, if it is a negative ruling. Maybe we are getting lucky and they are removing the USAS-12 from the DD list. wouldent that be nice. i know they are big and clunky but i have a strange soft spot for the usas 12. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vicarious_Lee 84 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 So...and I'm sorry if I missed it in this and other threads about this issue. Is there ANY other source or form of information about this besides this ONE DUDE'S blog post? I've seen this in countless threads on several forums, and the only link I've found is to this one guy's blog. What up? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
psl sniper 963 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) this guy thinks i work for aliance arms because i called him out on the 30 rnd drums. too funny. first he says this. Kent Says: January 21st, 2011 at 11:49 PM I have to question your knowledge of Saigas since there is no 30 round drum in existance. There is a 20 and 12 round stick mags. so i reply with this. mike Says: January 22nd, 2011 at 12:57 AM umm yeah there is. aliance armament makes a 30 rnd drum. so now i have to question youre knowledge of saigas. theres also a 12 rnd drum a 10 rnd drum 10 rnd mags 5 rnd mags 8 rnd mags maybe do a little research (or hell actually buy one) before you try and sound smart. otherwise you just end up looking stupid. to which he replies Kent Says: January 22nd, 2011 at 11:48 AM Mike,, is this the mike from alliance armament? Your I can take a cinder block and call it a 50 round drum for saigas. Theirs does not function. I bought one of their ORIGINAL lot of the 20s that do not and never worked. The only drums that actually function are the MD drums. MD actually bought my $400 dollar doorstop alliance 20 round drum to figure out what made them junk. IF your the mike from alliance, and I think you are, you guys have been effectively run out of the saiga 12 forums and community on the proverbial rail. Alliance makes junk thats overpriced and does not work. Your in Goonville and Im upstate and talked to you on the phone waaay back when you were building your first 50 or so. the dude is way paranoid. i wrote back today but my reply hasnt shown up. its good stuff. this is all at the bottom of the comments page. so which one of you is it? fess up now. Edited January 23, 2011 by psl sniper Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GregM1 241 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 this guy thinks i work for aliance arms because i called him out on the 30 rnd drums. too funny. first he says this. Kent Says: January 21st, 2011 at 11:49 PM I have to question your knowledge of Saigas since there is no 30 round drum in existance. There is a 20 and 12 round stick mags. so i reply with this. mike Says: January 22nd, 2011 at 12:57 AM umm yeah there is. aliance armament makes a 30 rnd drum. so now i have to question youre knowledge of saigas. theres also a 12 rnd drum a 10 rnd drum 10 rnd mags 5 rnd mags 8 rnd mags maybe do a little research (or hell actually buy one) before you try and sound smart. otherwise you just end up looking stupid. to which he replies Kent Says: January 22nd, 2011 at 11:48 AM Mike,, is this the mike from alliance armament? Your I can take a cinder block and call it a 50 round drum for saigas. Theirs does not function. I bought one of their ORIGINAL lot of the 20s that do not and never worked. The only drums that actually function are the MD drums. MD actually bought my $400 dollar doorstop alliance 20 round drum to figure out what made them junk. IF your the mike from alliance, and I think you are, you guys have been effectively run out of the saiga 12 forums and community on the proverbial rail. Alliance makes junk thats overpriced and does not work. Your in Goonville and Im upstate and talked to you on the phone waaay back when you were building your first 50 or so. the dude is way paranoid. i wrote back today but my reply hasnt shown up. its good stuff. this is all at the bottom of the comments page. so which one of you is it? fess up now. i saw these comments earlier today. not suprised its people from the boards. lol. wonder if kent is also. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fumes 84 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Maybe scummy is schooling the internets on jaw ripping Sags. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
psl sniper 963 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 this guy thinks i work for aliance arms because i called him out on the 30 rnd drums. too funny. first he says this. Kent Says: January 21st, 2011 at 11:49 PM I have to question your knowledge of Saigas since there is no 30 round drum in existance. There is a 20 and 12 round stick mags. so i reply with this. mike Says: January 22nd, 2011 at 12:57 AM umm yeah there is. aliance armament makes a 30 rnd drum. so now i have to question youre knowledge of saigas. theres also a 12 rnd drum a 10 rnd drum 10 rnd mags 5 rnd mags 8 rnd mags maybe do a little research (or hell actually buy one) before you try and sound smart. otherwise you just end up looking stupid. to which he replies Kent Says: January 22nd, 2011 at 11:48 AM Mike,, is this the mike from alliance armament? Your I can take a cinder block and call it a 50 round drum for saigas. Theirs does not function. I bought one of their ORIGINAL lot of the 20s that do not and never worked. The only drums that actually function are the MD drums. MD actually bought my $400 dollar doorstop alliance 20 round drum to figure out what made them junk. IF your the mike from alliance, and I think you are, you guys have been effectively run out of the saiga 12 forums and community on the proverbial rail. Alliance makes junk thats overpriced and does not work. Your in Goonville and Im upstate and talked to you on the phone waaay back when you were building your first 50 or so. the dude is way paranoid. i wrote back today but my reply hasnt shown up. its good stuff. this is all at the bottom of the comments page. so which one of you is it? fess up now. i saw these comments earlier today. not suprised its people from the boards. lol. wonder if kent is also. "kent" is in fact a member, he sent me a pm just recently. ill let him reveal himself, caught me off gaurd, ill say that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Koljec 37 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 <br />so back to the DD thing.. Say it happens.<br /><br />I've never had any interest in owning a DD but I guess that may change, what are the rules on registering one? is it the same as the NFA registration topic in the NFA section?<br /><br /><br /><br /> Were Saiga shotguns to get re-classified as DDs, I'd like to know what Saiga owners in DD-prohibited states would be expected to do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.