scavenger 0 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 I am sure I am not the first person to ask this question, nor will I probably be the last person to ask this question, but I just thought it might be helpful to get some opinions on what is the best side-mounted optic out there. I'm looking for something Russian (of course), something well worth the money and functions flawlessly. My biggest fear is that it might sit too far forward or too far back for myself, on top of blowing three hundred dollars on an optic that won't function right for me. Looking over what Kalinka has to offer, I've come across numerous side-mounted optics that have caught my attention. They include: PK-01 PK-AS Rakurs-A Kashtan 1P78 These scopes are the ones that have caught my eye and am willing to put money down on if any of them are worth it. I know most of it is preference, but perhaps some of you have some of the models yourselves and have used others as well and have a good opinion on which you would prefer over another. I'm not trying to turn my AK-47 into a sniper rifle; I just want something that'll be good for CQB and at least useful to medium/long range shots. I honestly prefer durability above all else, so it being waterproof would be an extra plus. Thank you! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigsal 757 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 I am sure I am not the first person to ask this question, nor will I probably be the last person to ask this question, but I just thought it might be helpful to get some opinions on what is the best side-mounted optic out there. I'm looking for something Russian (of course), something well worth the money and functions flawlessly. My biggest fear is that it might sit too far forward or too far back for myself, on top of blowing three hundred dollars on an optic that won't function right for me. Looking over what Kalinka has to offer, I've come across numerous side-mounted optics that have caught my attention. They include: PK-01 PK-AS Rakurs-A Kashtan 1P78 These scopes are the ones that have caught my eye and am willing to put money down on if any of them are worth it. I know most of it is preference, but perhaps some of you have some of the models yourselves and have used others as well and have a good opinion on which you would prefer over another. I'm not trying to turn my AK-47 into a sniper rifle; I just want something that'll be good for CQB and at least useful to medium/long range shots. I honestly prefer durability above all else, so it being waterproof would be an extra plus. Thank you! PK-AS-S (not PK-AS-V)due to the ability to use even when the batteries die, and the fact it sits slightly offset to the left and you can still use the iron sights as well. Accept the best, not the rest. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 PK-AS-S (not PK-AS-V)due to the ability to use even when the batteries die, and the fact it sits slightly offset to the left and you can still use the iron sights as well. Accept the best, not the rest. Too awkward. It hurt my neck. Save for an Aimpoint. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scavenger 0 Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 @bigsal: That is definitely a big plus, both the fact that it can still function some what without battery life and how you can use the irons as well. Definitely, possibly, probably the one I'll go with if I go with any of the four that I listed! @Jim Digriz: Aimpoint, huh? Which one would you suggest out of their entire product line (if you've got a preference)? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) @bigsal: That is definitely a big plus, both the fact that it can still function some what without battery life and how you can use the irons as well. Definitely, possibly, probably the one I'll go with if I go with any of the four that I listed! I had one. It looked awesome on the rifle, but was VERY awkward. I just couldn't get used to it. @Jim Digriz: Aimpoint, huh? Which one would you suggest out of their entire product line (if you've got a preference)? On a tight budget, I'd get the Comp C3 (<$400). If money is not an issue, the Micro can't be beat. It's lightweight, not at all bulky, durable, resistant to the elements, and can stay on for years on one battery. Mine stays on all the time now. Some of these Russian optics are cool, but at $389 and $499, why not get an Aimpoint instead? EDITED TO ADD: The Comp C3 will shortly have a good side-mount option that allows co-witnessing. The Micro does not yet have one, but could still be run on other side mounts. I use the Ultimak currently, but plan to switch when Horse's Micro mount comes out (if it checks out). Edited January 24, 2011 by Jim Digriz 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scavenger 0 Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Personally I wanted to get a Russian sight because it is a Russian gun, but ultimately I just want what works the best when I need it too. As wonderful as it would be to keep all of it Russian, I'd rather be alive with a functional weapon than dead with a cool one. I am just curious how the Russian optic ended up being awkward for you, is all. Did it have something to do with the way you had to crane your neck? Did it sit too high? Out of the entire Aimpoint line, you'd go with the Micro T-1? I'll look into product details momentarily, but looking at that compared to some of the other optics it looks kind of ill-powered. Granted, I don't want to carry an optic that ways a fraction of what my gun does, but functionality is important. How much does the Micro normally go for (and would you happen to know a good place with good deals on it or any other Aimpoint optics)? I was just about to ask what side-mounted rail system I should go with; I'll look into Ultimak and see what they have. My receiver came already with X and Y axises marked, so side-mounted rails is ideal (because I definitely don't want to put anything on the barrel). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) Personally I wanted to get a Russian sight because it is a Russian gun, but ultimately I just want what works the best when I need it too. As wonderful as it would be to keep all of it Russian, I'd rather be alive with a functional weapon than dead with a cool one. I am just curious how the Russian optic ended up being awkward for you, is all. Did it have something to do with the way you had to crane your neck? Did it sit too high? It was far offset to the left, which forces you to hold your head in an awkward position. The other version does sit too high. You are thinking along the right lines in terms of having a functional, rather than cool or "correct" weapon. The Aimpoints are very tough and unlikely to fail. Out of the entire Aimpoint line, you'd go with the Micro T-1? I'll look into product details momentarily, but looking at that compared to some of the other optics it looks kind of ill-powered. Granted, I don't want to carry an optic that ways a fraction of what my gun does, but functionality is important. How much does the Micro normally go for (and would you happen to know a good place with good deals on it or any other Aimpoint optics)? I was just about to ask what side-mounted rail system I should go with; I'll look into Ultimak and see what they have. My receiver came already with X and Y axises marked, so side-mounted rails is ideal (because I definitely don't want to put anything on the barrel). Sorry, what seems "ill-powered" about the Micro? It has the same capabilities as all of the other Aimpoints, but in a lighter and smaller package. The Ultimak is a gas tube rail, thus probably outside your search parameters. Edited January 24, 2011 by Jim Digriz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TX-Zen 287 Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 The 1P78 is not a red dot even though it's listed there at Kalinka, it's a 2.8x wide FOV scope similar in concept to an ACOG. Several people over on AR15.com have them and have written excellent reviews, if I were to get a scope in that category it'd definately be top of my list. I already have a similar older optic called the PO 3.5x21P which is fantastic. Overall I feel it has the best optical clarity of any Russian magnified scope I've come across, even better than the legendary PSO-1 4x24. The PO 3.5 is a tad bulky but works extremely well, some models are calibrated for 7.62x39 which is nice, a possible advantage compared to the 1P78 which is only cammed for 5.45 For actual red dot's I am extremely partial to the PK-AS and the Rakurz for a number of reasons, one of which an aimpoint can never do...they function without batteries. They are tough and hold zero very well, are best used with both eyes open and great for an optic that you can actually use while moving. Overall both are my favorite optics and one I've had great luck with them over the years. The Rakurz is probably going to end up my current favorite combloc optic...IMO it's considerably tougher than the PK-AS even, is sturdy as hell and doesn't require batteries (its tritium illuminated). It's also centerline over the bore which is a common complaint we westerners have about typical combloc offsets and is also great with both eyes open shooting. I use it on my S12 for clays and it does well, plus is zeroed for slugs at 100 and kicks butt there. All around I'm becoming convinced this is the top of the line side rail optic, even the PK-AS has disadvantages by comparison. PK-A is another favorite, once you get used to using both eyes the tubular effect is gone and they are also excellent if you get the hammer grey military model. Easier to zero than the PK-AS but without an always on black dot they suffer from battery life compared to an aimpoint, otherwise I think they are GTG. I've got a new PK01-VS which is probably the best of the PK01/02/23/PK-A family of optics, it can actually cowitness despite being a side rail mounted optic. I haven't fooled around with it alot but so far I'm impressed, though honestly not as much as I am with the Rakurz. It's still a neat optic and I'd have no problem taking it into a SHTF situation. PK-AS (Does not block the irons due to the extreme left offset, PK-AS-W and PK-AS-V will block the irons) Rakurz PK-A PK01-VS PO 3.5x21P AK74 7.62/AKM reticule Z 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) For actual red dot's I am extremely partial to the PK-AS and the Rakurz for a number of reasons, one of which an aimpoint can never do...they function without batteries. +1 for the cool pics and expertise on Russian optics. However, the Aimpoint is very unlikely to have its batteries cut out on you, and the PK-AS black circle and dot can (when the red dot is off) wash out or become difficult to quickly locate on dark backgrounds. I can't think of much advantage for it. The elevation cam is kind of cool, but mostly pointless on the flat shooting 5.45 and .223 rifles that I spend most of my time shooting. Maybe it would be more useful on the x39. Is the Rakurz reticle etched? I hope so, because the tritium-powered optics I've seen wash out too often. Edited January 25, 2011 by Jim Digriz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TX-Zen 287 Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 And I really need to get around to posting the combloc optics reference I'm working on Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TX-Zen 287 Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) As far as I can tell the Rakurz is etched and being much bigger than the PK-AS dot I doubt it will wash out against dark targets. The tritium isn't super bright but that makes sense to me, if you're really in low light no light it seems its about where it needs to be. Also I don't claim the PK-AS is perfect, but rather that its much better than its often given credit for if one takes the time to get to know it properly. Case in point, if you really know how to use the cam you can score very quick first shot hits out to 400m or so, it's designed precisely to take advantage of the flat shooting 5.45 round. In general I think we in the west don't really understand combloc optics and tend to dismiss them simply because we are unfamiliar with them or don't know how to get the most out of them, add in the constant comparison to aimpoint and it can become pretty hard to see what advantages they may really have. Something often complained about also is how high combloc optics sit, everyone loves the Ultimak T1 combo but I can say from experience its not perfect for shooting on the move. Granted I don't spend most of my free time training and don't have the pedigree that the top name instructors do, but I am able to observe what works for me and what doesn't, and my conclusions are generally based on my experience and not what everyone else says. Combloc optics have always tended to be higher over the bore and when you get your move on you can see a little insight into why they are designed that way, personally thats another reason I tend to like them the way they are. Z Edited January 25, 2011 by TX-Zen Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) In general I think we in the west don't really understand combloc optics and tend to dismiss them simply because we are unfamiliar with them or don't know how to get the most out of them, add in the constant comparison to aimpoint and it can become pretty hard to see what advantages they may really have. Comblock optics do have some good points. I guess the reason I am so attached to the Aimpoint is that I'm obsessed with reliability and ruggedness for my weapons. It's the whole reason I chose the AK in the first place. My gear must pass the "Mad Max" test. (Not that I'm expecting a Mad Max scenario, but you never know). From your previous posts, it sounds like the Rakurz might do so, but that the PK-AS would not. I say that because you say it can't live on an S-12. Something often complained about also is how high combloc optics sit, everyone loves the Ultimak T1 combo but I can say from experience its not perfect for shooting on the move. Granted I don't spend most of my free time training and don't have the pedigree that the top name instructors do, but I am able to observe what works for me and what doesn't, and my conclusions are generally based on my experience and not what everyone else says. Combloc optics have always tended to be higher over the bore and when you get your move on you can see a little insight into why they are designed that way, personally thats another reason I tend to like them the way they are. Interesting point. It's true that the low, tight cheekweld with the co-witnessing Aimpoint or from the irons can be a tad constrictive on the move. Trade-offs, trade-offs... Edited January 25, 2011 by Jim Digriz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Horse 39 Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 IMHO - Though generally out of most AK user's price range - the best is a side mounted low magnification ACOG. Here is my TA25 1.5X: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) IMHO - Though generally out of most AK user's price range - the best is a side mounted low magnification ACOG. Here is my TA25 1.5X: That looks good, but it appears that it would have the sights blurred up in your line of sight? ETA: By the way, what is it about a low magnification ACOG that makes it "the best" in your opinion? It would seem to me like it would do nothing well, with such a low magnification. To high a magnification to co-witness your irons, too low to get a lot of benefit at distance. Help me understand. Edited February 8, 2011 by Jim Digriz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Horse 39 Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 In this case you are very correct. The irons are visible in the lower roughly 1/8 of the optic. This is simply because having the optic low enough to cheek weld requires this - not out of any desire to cowitness. As far as best side mount: I love that it can be used basically 24/7. In no light you get tritium, in light you get blaze flowing fiber, in-between you get etched glass reticle. While this is am older model with simple post and dot I will be replacing it with the newer "Eotech" type reticle that is now offered. This is much better than my simple post. Of course a magnified optic suffers from some ofthe issues not seen in reflex sites - namely supreme speed- but I believe it to be the ideal compromise for a carbine. Adding options like 2X slows the speed - but adds accuracy etc. In the end you have to pick your compromise - I picked up close speed in favor of more durability, no battery, etched reticle. Others may feel that a bad decision. Hope that helps. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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