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Parson Julabee Jones

Sons of Red Jacket observations....

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I'm not a television person, and generally loathe reality tv....but the excitement about Son of Guns here on forum led me to watch last night's shows. All in all, they were great. I do appreciate the low key approach, tinted with sly humour, and as much GUNS as possible in that short a time.

 

However, some observations....

 

1) I loved the understated use of SAIGA's in both shows. 2) I loved the clean, almost antiseptic, shop. Wish mine were that clean, or even 1/10th as clean. 3) Did the Master Key have as the shotgun breacher's 'pistol grip stock', the magazine of the M16? Master Key's have always intrigued me, but I'm not sure about that particular link-up. I'd enjoy seeing it up close.

 

Anyhow, I guess there's at least one reality show I'll be watching from now on.

 

PJJ

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Did the Master Key have as the shotgun breacher's 'pistol grip stock', the magazine of the M16? Master Key's have always intrigued me, but I'm not sure about that particular link-up. I'd enjoy seeing it up close.

PJJ

 

Yes. It works the same way on an M203.

 

The master key was a neat looking project and I'm glad it was profitable for Will.

 

But the answer for the original problem was a training one...make the breacher the last man in the stack to go in. The guy who has to worry about two different triggers, two different safeties, two different barrels, should not be the lead man in.

 

Just my two cents though.

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Couldn't agree with Gunny more. Lead man does not need any more on his mind than his job in the stack.

 

I have to admit, though, that as much as I love master-keys, I really question the wisdom of one out of a Saiga. That's a lot of weight and bulk to sling to the bottom of my rifle. I think I'd much rather take that exact shotgun, put a pistol grip on it, then have it on a short lanyard from my off side.

 

Still, I haven't watched the episode yet. Maybe Will makes it work.

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Yeah, I loved the Saiga but I really questioned it as a choice for a masterkey. You only need a couple rounds for one and there are several shotguns half that size and weight.

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I had talked to Tony Rumore a long time ago about mounting my 8" SBS under a RPK for sheer entertainment value. The idea of trying to use it in a practical application wasn't even a consideration.

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Well, if all we're talking is fun, then I say Hell Yeah! I would love to run a multi-stage course of fire using the config for pure entertainment value.

 

Especially beneath an RPK. 'Cause, you know, an RPK isn't nearly enough firepower by itself. :devil:

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what I found interesting is that the final mounting system was a just a chaos rail? so really, its just a 8" conversion with no grip and a chaos rail. So while being able to mount an S12 to whatever is awesome, its not really that large a technological leap. Also, since the design is totally dependent on chaos producing rails, if there were a falling out, or if chaos stopped producing that rail, or if chaos closes their doors, RJ is SOL. I'd probably be working on a back up plan in my spare time if I were them.

 

One good thing about having the 5 round mag is that the operator can breech multiple doors in a very short amount of time. So I don't doubt its usefulness. Plus I don't think SWAT guys march for miles in the snow, so weight isn't THAT much of an issue.

 

Its amazing that RJ was able to make 24 grand off that little project. Dang....I am in the wrong friggin' business!

 

I hope his prices don't increase because after seeing them work I kinda want them to do a conversion for me. Still saving my pennies. Will and all his employees seem super cool.

Edited by AtlSaiga

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HEY GUYS Im all for red jacket making a ton of money and Will seems like a nice guy.However shooting flares from what they called a "m203 grenade launcher" (looks like a 37MM flare launcher) in the parking lot while traffic is passing does not look good .It will make the gun uneducated think this guy is shooting actual grenades. He knows there is no harm in this act but others don't. This producer is trying to make a good show but at what cost to the responsible gun owners.They need to tamp this down a bit and it will make a good show.

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durability test of a standard ARMS mount mounted to 2 aluminum rails would be interesting. the 12 ga. backs quite a bit of recoil for 6 10-24 screws threaded into aluminum. the concept i had provided for rear mount also to absorb the recoil. However, i was planning on a 20 round drum also. :super:

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Well, I don't know so much about door breaching and close quarter gun fighting and room clearing....but would have thought a shotgun would have made a better clearing and close quarter weapon, than an M16 would. And if that were the case, why not a short barreled Saiga12, with a 20 round drum full of door breaching rounds? Or one of the new Kel-Tec double tube guns, with one tube of breaching rounds and the other with buckshot?

 

I bought a bunch of breaching rounds, and to tell you the truth, they'll breach the fool out of just about anything. A couple of years ago, after the horrible ice storm of the century, I used a Benelli pump and breaching rounds to blow broken tree limbs out of my maple trees. Worked beautifully...and I certainly wouldn't want to face breachers in close quarters. I figure they'd be just about as deadly as "00" buck.

 

At the least, if I were contemplating building and selling master keys a la' RED JACKET, I'd have some kind of rubberized cover for the M16 magazine, to give at least a semblance of a hand grip when in use. The metal back of that bare magazine would hit the hand pretty hard during breacher recoil I suspect.

 

All of which I guess, is why RED JACKET, the military nor law enforcement have tried to contact me for advice....

 

PJJ

 

 

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HEY GUYS Im all for red jacket making a ton of money and Will seems like a nice guy.However shooting flares from what they called a "m203 grenade launcher" (looks like a 37MM flare launcher) in the parking lot while traffic is passing does not look good .It will make the gun uneducated think this guy is shooting actual grenades. He knows there is no harm in this act but others don't. This producer is trying to make a good show but at what cost to the responsible gun owners.They need to tamp this down a bit and it will make a good show.

 

No it was ACTUALLY an M203 40mm grenade launcher he used. It was the same exact old ass one the army uses (I just got out of the army and I used them alllll the time). It wasn't a flare launcher, it was just a 40mm flare, launched out of an M203 40mm grenade launcher. Which is pretty common. you can't even get actual 40mm HE or HEDP grenades unless you ARE the military. Some companies sell flares and smoke grenades that can be launched out of these for "entertainment" purposes. Here is the exact same one they used on the show, if I am correct..

 

gm203p.jpg

 

 

AMMO TO GO

Link to some 37mm flare ammo

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Nonetheless actual or not with the antigun sentiment gearing up right now. We need to be careful and present our selves as responsible people to the unknowing and or explain to them the facts.Hell my local news called a bb gun a firearm the other day several times that was used in an icident.They use phrases like high caliber,high powered when referring to any firearm it freightens people .

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In this picture. I dont see the trigger group moved foward. I thought it was convertred? I do see a shorter gas tube, rails, and a door breacher with an sb.

A pic from RedJacket's website.post-11728-0-63248900-1296182173_thumb.jpg

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Nonetheless actual or not with the antigun sentiment gearing up right now. We need to be careful and present our selves as responsible people to the unknowing and or explain to them the facts.Hell my local news called a bb gun a firearm the other day several times that was used in an icident.They use phrases like high caliber,high powered when referring to any firearm it freightens people .

 

LOL..sooooo true. Shit's hilarious. Watch this video nattyiceking posted on the "barrel shroud" thread a few days ago.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rGpykAX1fo&feature=player_embedded

 

While what you're saying about the "unknowing" or "uneducated" is true, it is ONLY through personal experience and shared knowledge of people like us here on the forum and other gun forums around that people like this may learn that people kill people. Not guns. They use "evil" language to make guns and related sound "evil".

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"Nonetheless actual or not with the antigun sentiment gearing up right now. We need to be careful and present our selves as responsible people to the unknowing and or explain to them the facts."

 

The mainstream media has co-opted the privilege of defining guns and things relating to guns for America, for you and I, for everyone. And since the media is decidedly left-leaning, the definitions will always be at odds with gun rights, gun truth and gun fact. Actual research and truth are anathema to media types who already know all they need to know (and far more than we'll ever know), and fear knowing such inconvenient things as 'facts'. And when called upon their misrepresentations, even outright lies, they respond with quotes from other liberals who feel exactly the same, and who, lo and behold! have "reputable" research to buttress their positions.

 

That's why we have guns that are not assault weapons labeled 'assault weapons', gun owners labeled as 'red necks' or worse, 'conservative, bible believing, pick-up truck driving, short tempered, quick on the trigger folks with IQs running at numbers less than the speed limit', and so forth.

 

Add to that the fact that THEY SIMPLY DON'T LIKE US, and you've got a potent mix of active anti-gun folks who will not stop. If they can't accomplish their goal of removing the guns from the hands of citizens at this time, they'll take what they can get. A ban here, a popular misconception there, a few politicians in the pocket, and one day, your kids or grandkids will wonder what is meant by the term "Second Admendment".

 

I've always been at heart, happily optimistic....but since along about 2008, my optimism has evaporated like the early morning dew, and daily, it gets worse. Take even a casual look into the future, using the recent past as indicators, and where we're going, isn't where we're going to want to be.

 

That's just my opinion, and I'd dearly love to have a better one. But I believe I'd be a fool to think otherwise.

 

PJJ

 

 

 

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I don't know if anybody else caught this, but when Will presents the Masterkey to the SWAT team testing it, he says something to the effect of "You can get to shooting bad guys [sic] faster."

 

The "breacher" cop then replies something to the effect of "We like killing".

 

I don't have a transcript, but this is friggin disgusting and unacceptable. This officer is a piece of shit, and I'm sure he's not alone in his attitude.

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Well, I don't know so much about door breaching and close quarter gun fighting and room clearing....but would have thought a shotgun would have made a better clearing and close quarter weapon, than an M16 would.

 

I don't know much about the subject, either. But I do know that my buddy's department's SWAT Team are all rocking M4's, and from what I've seen elsewhere, a lot of SWAT Teams do the same. Never seen or heard of M16's being used, though. Seems too long to be doing work in a house.

 

In this picture. I dont see the trigger group moved foward. I thought it was convertred? I do see a shorter gas tube, rails, and a door breacher with an sb.

A pic from RedJacket's website.post-11728-0-63248900-1296182173_thumb.jpg

 

If they converted it and moved the trigger forward, the shooter wouldn't be able to manipulate the trigger with ease. It'd be too far forward, and nothing close enough to it to use as a grip (like they use the AR mag for).

Edited by -Shooter-

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Door breacher.... ok . having used it extensively , it is one hell of a set up for breaching a door and walking in . Fucker weighs about 12-14 pounds , I can't imagine trying to use it for anything else . The TV show , hope ya'll enjoy it , we'll keep you filled in as much as we can . However , as I'm sure ya'll can understand , we're not allowed to comment on episode particulars , editing , shit that was left out or put in the wrong spot . We see it when ya'll see it .

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Door breacher.... ok . having used it extensively , it is one hell of a set up for breaching a door and walking in . Fucker weighs about 12-14 pounds , I can't imagine trying to use it for anything else . The TV show , hope ya'll enjoy it , we'll keep you filled in as much as we can . However , as I'm sure ya'll can understand , we're not allowed to comment on episode particulars , editing , shit that was left out or put in the wrong spot . We see it when ya'll see it .

 

Keep up the good work, and ignore the haters.

 

I'll be watching it each week.

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Well, I don't know so much about door breaching and close quarter gun fighting and room clearing....but would have thought a shotgun would have made a better clearing and close quarter weapon, than an M16 would. And if that were the case, why not a short barreled Saiga12, with a 20 round drum full of door breaching rounds? Or one of the new Kel-Tec double tube guns, with one tube of breaching rounds and the other with buckshot?

 

I bought a bunch of breaching rounds, and to tell you the truth, they'll breach the fool out of just about anything. A couple of years ago, after the horrible ice storm of the century, I used a Benelli pump and breaching rounds to blow broken tree limbs out of my maple trees. Worked beautifully...and I certainly wouldn't want to face breachers in close quarters. I figure they'd be just about as deadly as "00" buck.

 

At the least, if I were contemplating building and selling master keys a la' RED JACKET, I'd have some kind of rubberized cover for the M16 magazine, to give at least a semblance of a hand grip when in use. The metal back of that bare magazine would hit the hand pretty hard during breacher recoil I suspect.

 

All of which I guess, is why RED JACKET, the military nor law enforcement have tried to contact me for advice....

 

PJJ

 

 

 

Yes a shotgun makes a hell of a CQB weapon But not for a SWAT officer. If you knew everyone in the house was a bad guy just breach the door and go in with 00 buck.

Unfortunately not everyone in a house are suspects. Wives or girlfriends and children are usually there as well. So if the perp decides to shoot it out the M-4 platform or H&K MP-5 are much more accurate for hostage shots (shooting around a hostage) that any shotgun.

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Door breacher.... ok . having used it extensively , it is one hell of a set up for breaching a door and walking in . Fucker weighs about 12-14 pounds , I can't imagine trying to use it for anything else . The TV show , hope ya'll enjoy it , we'll keep you filled in as much as we can . However , as I'm sure ya'll can understand , we're not allowed to comment on episode particulars , editing , shit that was left out or put in the wrong spot . We see it when ya'll see it .

 

Thanks for a great show!! And showing your shop and skills! The DVR was set to record them all as soon as I saw the first ad!:super:

 

Can I talk to you about a drum fed suppressed 12ga door breacher , belt fed .50bmg, flamethrower combo???? WITH a bayonet?

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Im no weapons and tactics expert but a much better idea would be for the lead guy to breach the door with a remmy 870 or a good ol fashioned door breacher and then have him go in last while the guys behind him go in immediately after breach. Its faster than a transition even with a "master key".

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Im no weapons and tactics expert but a much better idea would be for the lead guy to breach the door with a remmy 870 or a good ol fashioned door breacher and then have him go in last while the guys behind him go in immediately after breach. Its faster than a transition even with a "master key".

 

Well technically yes...but realistically every man knows his position and everyones else's position in case things get mixed up. Also, the rear man usually comes up from the rear, breaches and rolls away from the door as the team enters and then he follows them in.

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Im no weapons and tactics expert but a much better idea would be for the lead guy to breach the door with a remmy 870 or a good ol fashioned door breacher and then have him go in last while the guys behind him go in immediately after breach. Its faster than a transition even with a "master key".

 

Well technically yes...but realistically every man knows his position and everyones else's position in case things get mixed up. Also, the rear man usually comes up from the rear, breaches and rolls away from the door as the team enters and then he follows them in.

 

 

Thats what I was saying. In SOG the lead guy breached the door with the saiga master key, then transitioned back to his AR grip and went in first.

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Im no weapons and tactics expert but a much better idea would be for the lead guy to breach the door with a remmy 870 or a good ol fashioned door breacher and then have him go in last while the guys behind him go in immediately after breach. Its faster than a transition even with a "master key".

 

Well technically yes...but realistically every man knows his position and everyones else's position in case things get mixed up. Also, the rear man usually comes up from the rear, breaches and rolls away from the door as the team enters and then he follows them in.

 

It really depends on the building layout. Usually the #1 in the stack will breach then move to the side while #2 with a shield enters first. But in narrow halls,like a apartment buildings there just isn't enough room for the breacher to move far enough aside for the stack to enter. The "Masterkey" would be perfect for this .

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Yes a shotgun makes a hell of a CQB weapon But not for a SWAT officer. If you knew everyone in the house was a bad guy just breach the door and go in with 00 buck.

Unfortunately not everyone in a house are suspects. Wives or girlfriends and children are usually there as well. So if the perp decides to shoot it out the M-4 platform or H&K MP-5 are much more accurate for hostage shots (shooting around a hostage) that any shotgun.

PIZDA, You need to check out the Speer Lawman rounds. They are reduced recoil 8 pellet 00 Buck (maybe a wee bit more punch than Federal bulk pack). Out of a 19inch Saiga-12 they will hold a 5 inch pattern at 25 yards with no flyers!!! They was designed so LE could take hostage shoots to the head out to this range. Anything closer and it is a lot like a slug but without the massive penetration. This stuff is really incredible. At 50 yards I was getting around 10 to 12 inch patterns from a 19 inch Saiga-12 with an occasional flyer. Tony and Bob tested it from an 8 inch SBS and was getting around 9 or 10 inches at 25 yards! Not to cheap but really no more expensive than any other ammo you would (should) buy for home defense.

 

Also we demoed (let them played with a Glock 18, M60E4, FA Saiga-12, & an 8 inch Saiga-12) some guns for a local SRT (new politically correct term for SWAT) team. Most said they would prefer the 8 inch Saiga over their MP5s. They obviously didn't like the drums for entry and prefered the sticks. They were absolutely crazy about double stacks.

 

Oh yeah, I also wasn't a bit surprised to see the SRT team was using Speer Lawman 00 Buck as well...

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