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ATF Shotgun Study - Here it is!


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#1 R & R Targets

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 03:16 PM

I have been going to the ATF website every day looking to see what they have posted and today I see that the Study that has been touted since last week in now posted. Here is a link to the study:

http://www.atf.gov/p...in-shotguns.pdf

Looks like they want to prohibit the importation of some shotguns, but after reading it I think the Saiga is ok because as imported the Saiga does not have a pistol grip, collapsible stock or magazine that holds more than 5 rounds.

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#2 Makc

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 03:24 PM

Thx for the link!!! :super:
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#3 EnzNow

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 03:38 PM

I haven't read the study yet, but exhibit 3 they us a picture of an MD20 as an example of a drum magazine. Just the fact that its on the radar can't be good.

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#4 BuffetDestroyer

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 03:44 PM

I have been going to the ATF website every day looking to see what they have posted and today I see that the Study that has been touted since last week in now posted. Here is a link to the study:

http://www.atf.gov/p...in-shotguns.pdf

Looks like they want to prohibit the importation of some shotguns, but after reading it I think the Saiga is ok because as imported the Saiga does not have a pistol grip, collapsible stock or magazine that holds more than 5 rounds.

Doug


Interesting to see Mike's MD20 drum in there as well as a Saiga with a folding stock!
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#5 Raleigh Saiga

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 03:47 PM

It is nice to read that the ATF is sincerely considering adding "military shooting competitions" as a "legitimate sporting purpose."


I am confused on the quote from page 1, stating "“the ability to accept a detachable large capacity magazine originally designed and produced for a military assault weapon should be added to the list of disqualifying military configuration features identified in 1989.”


Saigas definitely have the ability to accept a detachable large capacity magazine. Whether or not the magazines were originally designed or produced for military assault weapons might be in question, but this is still not clear.

#6 Corbin

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 04:28 PM

Thanks Doug.

Hopefully that will clear some things up. I found it interesting that they said a rear pistol grip on a shotgun is now considered sporting:

Note, however, that the working group believes that pistol grips for the trigger hand are prevalent on shotguns and are therefore generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes.


However they don't believe 3 gun matches are common enough YET to be considered "generally recognized" as a sporting event. Sounds like more of us need to get into 3 gun shooting. :super:

Another thing I found interesting is that while recoil compensators are fine and flash hiders are not (for importation), if the ATF decides a particular comp reduces the flash signature enough, it will not be allowed to be imported. I can understand their concern that some exporter may drill a couple holes in a FH and say "it's a comp now", depending on what shell you use and how long the barrel is, ANY comp (or just a plain barrel) can have next to NO flash.

Anyway, thanks again for posting that. I just hope the panic buying doesn't continue to drive prices up too long. That's how free markets go though, so we'll see.


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#7 TheDriver

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 04:36 PM

Thanks for posting. From a quick read, not as bad as it could be, not as good as it could be. I would rather the ATF not have Saigas and MD20 drums on the radar, but they clearly do now.

#8 utahhandyman

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 04:41 PM

If you haven't read it states the ability to accept large box magazines. They are definitely looking at the saiga, especially if you notice the military use that has been converted. Then scroll to the bottom and see the md20 and the converted s410. Unfortunately they are eye balling us but there is a quote that talks about lawful users and burdening us. We might have a chance. It asks for comments and asks about people actually using these guns for hunting and sporting (clays and such)
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#9 physicsnerd

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 04:42 PM

I read the whole thing. I didn't get the sense that anything in there could be used against the Saiga 12 (or 20). The availability of Mike's drums is for once they're here. Plus, as was the case before, adding a drum to a S12 means you need to be 922r compliant. ETA: In light of the above post I wanted to note that I'm not particularly concerned with the mention of the ability to accept large capacity magazines. If they went down that road it would mean the end of Saigas (both shotguns and rifles), WASRs (they are modified once here to accept standard AK mags), Glocks (33 or 22 rounders), etc.

A few things made me chuckle though because they said on multiple occasions that "plinking" was not a legitimate sporting purpose nor was any other legal use. Even mentioned is that fact that if plinking was recognized than it would take the teeth out of the GCA because anything could be used for plinking. That made me laugh. Sad though is the idea that someone would want to use an imported weapon for HD means that one is either limited in how it came, or has to jump through hoops to comply with another law (eg, 922r).

I also enjoyed the mention that there was concern that America was becoming a "dumping ground" for surplus military weapons. Like no one wanted them and were saying, "no, no we don't need anymore guns." The GCA really strikes me as a handout to the domestic arms market by significantly reducing their competition. Oh, and reducing American's liberty and freedom but that should go without saying.

Edited by physicsnerd, 27 January 2011 - 04:47 PM.

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#10 BuffetDestroyer

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 04:45 PM

According to their findings, the new Legion Saigas with the clamp on rail would be illegal to import, unless KVAR attaches that after the fact.

Regarding the rail being an evil feature, not having a flashlight either attached to a shotgun, or on your person for home defense is something a shark lawyer would use to illustrate that you had no way of properly identifying the target as a hostile threat (i.e. it could have been your child or pet). Obviously varmint hunting at night is not a sporting event, despite its legality. Feral hog eradication is also not a legitimate purpose for an imported weapon since that is only done during fully lit daylight hours when feral hogs are out in droves destroying crops and livestock.

This study will just be the precursor to any action, so expect another panic as the ATF makes a ruling based on the study.

Edited by BuffetDestroyer, 27 January 2011 - 04:50 PM.

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#11 BobAsh

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 04:46 PM

It's a bit inconclusive, but it sure is a bad sign when they show an MD20 in their example.
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#12 Jim Digriz

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 04:46 PM

It looks to me from the study that the chances of the Saiga 12 being designated a Destructive Device are about zero, but that there is a distinct danger that they will prohibit it from importation at some point.

Edited by Jim Digriz, 27 January 2011 - 04:47 PM.


#13 TheDriver

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 04:47 PM

Don't people use flashlights for hunting feral hogs? Is that not a sport?
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#14 physicsnerd

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 04:49 PM

It looks to me from the study that the chances of the Saiga 12 being designated a Destructive Device are about zero, but that there is a distinct danger that they will prohibit it from importation at some point.


If they try, K-Var will call Harry Reid and everything will be OK.
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#15 physicsnerd

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 04:52 PM

Don't people use flashlights for hunting feral hogs? Is that not a sport?


"Little advantage to the sportsman." I am sure that is the answer. That along with VFGs. You may think it gives you an advantage while hunting or shooting clays but that is not considered a good enough reason.

Question: Do they want to hear from us or just from those in the affected industries (ie, the forum sponsors and others in the manufacturing/customization industry)? Just curious before I give them my email address with some feedback (though I guess I could create a special email address specifically for that purpose).

#16 TheDriver

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 04:54 PM


Don't people use flashlights for hunting feral hogs? Is that not a sport?


"Little advantage to the sportsman." I am sure that is the answer. That along with VFGs. You may think it gives you an advantage while hunting or shooting clays but that is not considered a good enough reason.

Question: Do they want to hear from us or just from those in the affected industries (ie, the forum sponsors and others in the manufacturing/customization industry)? Just curious before I give them my email address with some feedback (though I guess I could create a special email address specifically for that purpose).


You are most likely correct. However, I think hunting hogs in the dead of night is pretty common in some places, no? In that case, a light is obviously a necessity.

I've never hunted hogs myself, but it's high on my list of things to do.

#17 physicsnerd

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 05:01 PM

You are most likely correct. However, I think hunting hogs in the dead of night is pretty common in some places, no? In that case, a light is obviously a necessity.

I've never hunted hogs myself, but it's high on my list of things to do.


True but I think the key here is that it can't come into the country with a flashlight mount, or rail systems or VFGs. Stupid yes, but the S12 comes with a traditional "hunting style" stock set and thus as imported it is no different than a Beretta A400. Someone could take that A400 and mod the crap at out of it and make it 922r compliant to have it in a more traditional "military style" look. Because the A400 could be modded in that way didn't stop it from being imported last year.

#18 BpS12

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 05:13 PM

Ok, if this is ALL just about importation, than I would think "Sporterized Saigas" should be in the clear. What I'm worried about is them limiting what WE do with them ounce we purchase them.

Just a thought.
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#19 TheDriver

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 05:17 PM


You are most likely correct. However, I think hunting hogs in the dead of night is pretty common in some places, no? In that case, a light is obviously a necessity.

I've never hunted hogs myself, but it's high on my list of things to do.


True but I think the key here is that it can't come into the country with a flashlight mount, or rail systems or VFGs. Stupid yes, but the S12 comes with a traditional "hunting style" stock set and thus as imported it is no different than a Beretta A400. Someone could take that A400 and mod the crap at out of it and make it 922r compliant to have it in a more traditional "military style" look. Because the A400 could be modded in that way didn't stop it from being imported last year.


Totally agree. What concerns me is if the ATF starts stepping into the "modability" of certain imported firearms. It will especially concern me if Andrew Traver becomes ATF head.

#20 utahhandyman

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 05:25 PM

Stop guessing and read what they wrote. No study was conducted for shotguns back when they did the first two studies! This study is specific to shotguns and what they were before they got neutered for importation. They know they are military originally and were neutered. The only thing of worry is the ability to accept high capacity mags. That would eliminate them from import unless they just make them into kits without the receiver and barrel. It doesnt matter what they did to hte rifle. This is shotgun specific. unless they get enough people saying they hunt with them in the neutered configuration'ild bet they are on the chopping block.
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#21 utahhandyman

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 05:29 PM


Don't people use flashlights for hunting feral hogs? Is that not a sport?


"Little advantage to the sportsman." I am sure that is the answer. That along with VFGs. You may think it gives you an advantage while hunting or shooting clays but that is not considered a good enough reason.

Question: Do they want to hear from us or just from those in the affected industries (ie, the forum sponsors and others in the manufacturing/customization industry)? Just curious before I give them my email address with some feedback (though I guess I could create a special email address specifically for that purpose).



We all need to give our intelligent and respectful two cents about how we all love and use these shotguns for our sporting purposes of hunting and skeet shooting with our new email addresses if necessary. Just don't get all disrespectful or we are screwed
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#22 Corbin

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 05:34 PM

If they say the rear pistol grips are now sporting, does that mean Saigas can now be imported with the trigger not moved back and a PG installed? That would be nice.

What do you wanna bet that because they have a picture of Mike's drum on there (even though it's not imported), there's going to be a panic to hurry up and buy them now? :rolleyes:

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#23 TheDriver

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 05:40 PM

What do you wanna bet that because they have a picture of Mike's drum on there (even though it's not imported), there's going to be a panic to hurry up and buy them now? :rolleyes:


I'm not going to bet against that.

#24 6500rpm

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 05:42 PM

Someone post details on what we can do to cock block this before it gets rolling. Who to contact and best arguements to prevent any unwelcome changes type stuff. I know we have folks on the board that are pretty well versed on this stuff.


Edited by 6500rpm, 27 January 2011 - 09:52 PM.

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#25 TonyRumore

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 05:47 PM

It sounds like the Saiga could be imported with a pistol grip in place.
The 4 inch depth measurement doesn't include the grip, so it's clear there as well.
Also, the new Turkish MKA1919 (AR-15 looking shotgun) to be imported by RAA looks to be in the clear as well. I first though the 4" depth measurement may restrict it, but later it is stated that sights don't count in the measurement.


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#26 EnzNow

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 05:52 PM

Stop guessing and read what they wrote. No study was conducted for shotguns back when they did the first two studies! This study is specific to shotguns and what they were before they got neutered for importation. They know they are military originally and were neutered. The only thing of worry is the ability to accept high capacity mags. That would eliminate them from import unless they just make them into kits without the receiver and barrel. It doesnt matter what they did to hte rifle. This is shotgun specific. unless they get enough people saying they hunt with them in the neutered configuration'ild bet they are on the chopping block.


I think your right..."The fact that a firearm or feature was initially designed for military or tactical applications,
including offensive or defensive combat, may indicate that it is not a sporting firearm. This may
be overcome by evidence that the particular shotgun or feature has been so regularly used by
sportsmen that it is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to
sporting purposes."

If they view the Saiga 12 as a firearm that was initially designed for military or tactical applications, that has been changed for import. That may factor in if they will ban S12's from being imported in the future. The way the BATF says to overcome this interpetation is to demonstrate that the S-12 "regularly" used by sportsmen and is suitiable for sporting purposes. I know I shoot clays with my stock Saiga 12 all the time, what about you guys?

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Edited by EnzNow, 27 January 2011 - 05:58 PM.


#27 physicsnerd

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 05:56 PM

Izhmash helps us out a bit by constantly referring to Saiga rifles as "hunting carbines." Does it say that on the Saiga shotgun manuals? I can't remember but the ATF study did say something about literature concerning the weapons.

#28 utahhandyman

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 06:03 PM

They also state "any of the mentioned items" that means just one and being able to accept high capacity mags whether it is shopped with one or not! And they also state that many shotguns have added rifle characteristics in recent years are not necessary for a sporting purpose. I think some of our business members need to start making barrels and hope for kits to be brought in

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#29 frick

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 06:07 PM

You folks better start thinking like bureaucratic Nazis.

Because if the writing on the wall for a ban on convertable Saigas isn't in there, I don't know what else is.

Hell, In my reading of this, insertion of a 6 round magazine makes the shotgun non sporting, let alone every other US made product intended for a Saiga, front grips with rail mounts, light mounts, pistol grips, altered parts for the fire control group, etc.

Hence, a Saiga imported that can no longer accept US made magazines, or factory High Caps, as in the Saiga Rifles that have no feed ramp built in, and require a special low cap mags, or worse, no mags at all, if they are too easily unsporterized.

I remember when some of you fuckers got on my ass for "Fricked" up conversions, that do not move the trigger group, and my MAIN response was that WHEN they made non sporting Saigas illegal, or registerable, ten minutes, and a 5 round mag and I was compliant.

That TIME is going to COME, and I can't wait to see you guys facing registration, destruction, or burial of your permanently converted guns. I hope you kept your original parts, and didn't weld up the pin holes.

If you haven't figured it out yet, the BATF is only there to seperate YOU from YOUR GUNS, using "Reasonable" gun control laws, and never, NEVER, EVER there to expand the horizons of guns available to people that aren't SOLDIERS or COPS!

Welcome to the world of second class citizens, too stupid to take care of themselves, or to own things that they deem as too dangerous.

Edited by frick, 27 January 2011 - 06:15 PM.

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#30 caal

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Posted 27 January 2011 - 06:11 PM

Just about all hunting/sporting firearms can trace there lineage to military small arms.
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