Jump to content

ATF Shotgun Study - Here it is!


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 471
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

This is not true. I spoke with them this week and they are still importing Saiga's. Things are just moving much slower due to the distributor companies buying all his inventory and jacking the prices

I have been going to the ATF website every day looking to see what they have posted and today I see that the Study that has been touted since last week in now posted. Here is a link to the study:  

I will make sure I put some videos up on Youtube of 5-shot, 2 minute-long mag dumps so people will see how sporting my Saigas are.   I don't see the sky falling, despite some comments here.   Wh

Posted Images

"Seriously, you're telling people to stop taking video of shooting guns fast. And you think they're going to "ruin it for the rest of us" by doing so?"

 

That was my thought the first time I went to a gun show, and they were turning away people with camo clothing on, unless they were active duty military.

 

 

"By that logic you might as well blame AGP for making 10 round mags or Mike Davidson for making 20 round drums. Oh wait, some people started saying that crap back when AGP first announced it was going to make them. Ditto for MD. I have no doubt that alot of ethical infants still believe such."

 

 

Unfortunately, that logic is correct, Pandora's box cannot be unopened.

 

And, its not the first time, Olympic Arms chambering an AR pistol in 7.62 x 39 made all the steel core AK ammo "Armor Piercing" and billions of rounds of cheap ammo, was no longer importable, ever again.

 

And, I am not agreeing with the logic, however, the fact is, MD's drum, is prominently featured in that report, for SOME reason.

 

 

 

"Newsflash: Your fellow gun owners aren't trying to infringe upon your rights. The government is. I suggest we all quit falling for the divide and conquer crap and focus our energies on writing our congressman and friendly media sources. "

 

I agree, and as distasteful as I found it, I had to agree with the gun shows ban on Camo, you don't NEED reporters standing around, with spoon fed "Bubba gun nuts" easily put on camera.

 

 

The system IS what it IS, either we work within it, or feed the system what it needs to strangle us.

 

There will come a time of reckoning, and it may be brought on by the Chinese calling in all their debt, or from within, I don't know which will happen first, but, just as the GCA of 68 was put in place to keep uppity niggers unarmed and in their place(Thats the thoughts of the Democratic Senators who devised it), the further attacks have been to keep the "Militias"(Clinton Administration), and now, recently declared "Individual Rights" by Heller, in theirs.

 

 

The next level of attacks are going to be like this.

 

1) Keep any new guns out of the country, further regulate them to death within.

 

2) Push the "Reasonable Regulation" Of all firearms to new levels, IE, DC retaining any semi auto pistol, with a magazine a "Machine Gun", FFL reporting requirement, IE, 2 assault rifle per week reports(Already asked for by the ATF in 4 border states), 1000 foot safe distance laws for elected officials, etc.

 

3) Limit domestic production, by stifling innovation at every level, IE, constantly ruling machine guns that aren't, as, that IE, Akins Accelarator, and by making now legal items, not, IE, Shotgun drums, or, through regulation by other agencys, IE, Infrared lasers are technically legal, however, the FDA prevents them from being sold in the US because they may cause eye damage.

 

Heller did not end the war against firearm ownership, it only moved it in a less blatant direction.

 

Youze all better thank your asses that "W" was able to put the critical 5th vote on the court, because without it, Feinstein would have called them all in, if Heller was not found to be an individual right.

 

And that is the truth.

Edited by frick
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think everyone needs to calm down, there is no definitive ruling as of yet. But in the mean time, I would carefully choose what links or videos I would post on this sight or youtube showing how "destructive" these weapons systems can be with the combined accesories. There is a reason that there is a study being done on the weapon sytem. All they see, and yes you can bet your ass that the MAN as you call it is fishing through these sites, are videos and pictures of military style weapons and being put to use in a "destructive" manner. Do I video people running through drum and after drum shooting pieces of wood and other objects, and then post them so EVERYONE can see them, no. As long as that continues, and it will, there will always be someone looking at loopholes for the ban on these weapons. I would venture to guess if any action is to be taken in the near future, it would be an import ban. But providing links to videos of that nature will by no means help to justify your cause of making this weapon look and act like a sporting weapon. Nobody is giving the "MAN" any positve aspects of this weapon, just the opposite. All anyone sees are these types of videos, but nobody post anything about someone using a 3 round mag to kill game, or using it for a skeet shoot. You are going to have to be somewhat responsible for what you make readily available on the internet for the sake of yourself and your saiga community members. Just my 2 cents

Edited by incognito485
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Question......

 

TECHNICALLY, wouldn't the side scope rail be a rail not "on top of the receiver", and hence add another "bad part" to the Saiga? I know that's splitting hairs, but still.

 

As for why MD Arms has the drums listed as out of stock, that seems obvious to me: People saw the picture of one on the ATF report and bought them all from Mike.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The reason they don't consider IPSC a sport is because if they did, it would nullify the entire law. Same reason they don't consider plinking a sport. You can plink with a 10/22 and you can plink with an AK47. My guess is the next move will be to have IPSC start using "lasers". This is already happening to Olympic Shooting events.

 

 

I took some heart from the report. Pistol grips have a sporting purpose. Can we please get our Saiga's imported with the correct FCG and PG installed then?

Link to post
Share on other sites

"The reason they don't consider IPSC a sport is because if they did, it would nullify the entire law."

 

Not just nullify the law, but completely make the "Sporting" component of the 1968 GCA moot.

 

Its only use foreseen was to keep cheap foreign pistols out, and then it was turned against more gun owners by using the "Non Sporting" clause to classify items completely legal, and exempt from other legislation, as DD's and make them basically impossible for people to get.

 

As long as the Director of the BATF can classify any firearm as non sporting, without judicial or congressional oversight, any firearm is able to be removed from general ownership.

 

The report is good in part, because it notes this, and recognizes that even if they come up with a more lenient interpretation, they ATF does not have to abide by it, if the director so chooses.

 

THAT is what our congressman need to see, that we have a potential dictator, deciding on his whim, what we as Americans, can, or cannot own.

Link to post
Share on other sites

unfortunately for that part, this is just a study so pistol grips still aren't allowed to be imported. personally im thankful that th is just a study, because otherwise the atf would have a hole with which they could do whatever they want and probably would stop saiga importation.

Link to post
Share on other sites

1. I'm offering to buy any one of you paranoid, conspiracy theory having whack job's S-12 for $400.00, before the (put on your tinfoil hats) ATF deems them D.D.

2. I'm willing to bet any of you well respectable numbnuts your pay checks that the S-12's ability to be imported is not affected.

3. I'll offer the same bet to anyone who wants to take it regarding mag capacity restrictions.

 

Lets put your money where your craziness is. LOL.

 

Well?

 

My offer is still open. No takers so far. Shocking. :lolol:

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

1. I'm offering to buy any one of you paranoid, conspiracy theory having whack job's S-12 for $400.00, before the (put on your tinfoil hats) ATF deems them D.D.

2. I'm willing to bet any of you well respectable numbnuts your pay checks that the S-12's ability to be imported is not affected.

3. I'll offer the same bet to anyone who wants to take it regarding mag capacity restrictions.

 

Lets put your money where your craziness is. LOL.

 

Well?

 

My offer is still open. No takers so far. Shocking. :lolol:

 

I'll gladly sell you mine and all my "extra's" $2000.00

post-22193-0-03554400-1296251529_thumb.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know how I missed this right at the top of the study document- We have three months to voice our views. I encourage all to do so, and do so in a reasonable manor and leave your emotions out of it.

 

"All interested persons may submit comments on this study.

Comments may be submitted by e-mail to shotgunstudy@atf.gov or by fax to (202)648-9601.

Faxed comments may not exceed 5 pages.

All comments must include name and mailing address."

ATF encourages submission of comments no later than May 1, 2011.

 

Edited by 6500rpm
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know how I missed this right at the top of the study document- We have three months to voice our views. I encourage all to do so, and do so in a reasonable manor and leave your emotions out of it.

 

"All interested persons may submit comments on this study.

Comments may be submitted by e-mail to shotgunstudy@atf.gov or by fax to (202)648-9601.

Faxed comments may not exceed 5 pages.

All comments must include name and mailing address."

ATF encourages submission of comments no later than May 1, 2011.

 

 

A place to view our concerns is great.....and I bet they would just love to have the full name and mailing address....

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know how I missed this right at the top of the study document- We have three months to voice our views. I encourage all to do so, and do so in a reasonable manor and leave your emotions out of it.

 

"All interested persons may submit comments on this study.

Comments may be submitted by e-mail to shotgunstudy@atf.gov or by fax to (202)648-9601.

Faxed comments may not exceed 5 pages.

All comments must include name and mailing address."

ATF encourages submission of comments no later than May 1, 2011.

 

 

A place to view our concerns is great.....and I bet they would just love to have the full name and mailing address....

atf "why thank you for your comments, and thank you for making it eisier for us to find you".

Link to post
Share on other sites

Something else I thought of regarding my previous post. One, or more, of the S12 owners remarked about hog hunting at night. the mounting of a flashlight on top of a hunting arm is foolish at best. Like the HD scenario, it hampers the ability to AIM. If I'm not mistaken, it's unethical, if not ILLEGAL, not to aim as well as being UNSPORTING. Just something else to ponder...

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know how I missed this right at the top of the study document- We have three months to voice our views. I encourage all to do so, and do so in a reasonable manor and leave your emotions out of it.

 

"All interested persons may submit comments on this study.

Comments may be submitted by e-mail to shotgunstudy@atf.gov or by fax to (202)648-9601.

Faxed comments may not exceed 5 pages.

All comments must include name and mailing address."

ATF encourages submission of comments no later than May 1, 2011.

 

 

OPEN A P.O. BOX, fax the number from a UPS store! We have to say something to these people! We have to voice our concerns! Along with that we have to call/write our lawmakers and voice our concerns with them as free law abiding citizens.

 

-EnzNow

Edited by EnzNow
Link to post
Share on other sites

Something else I thought of regarding my previous post. One, or more, of the S12 owners remarked about hog hunting at night. the mounting of a flashlight on top of a hunting arm is foolish at best. Like the HD scenario, it hampers the ability to AIM. If I'm not mistaken, it's unethical, if not ILLEGAL, not to aim as well as being UNSPORTING. Just something else to ponder...

 

How does mounting a light on a longarm hamper aiming? Would anyone mount a light on the top rail (ie in the sight window)?

 

Lots of people hunt hogs with lights. It's legal in certain states.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Even though the yellow sheet stays with the dealer, who do you think the phone call with your drivers license is made to-maybe the tooth fairy :rolleyes:

 

Edit to PSL-although admittedly this was a jackass way for me to put it, most of these and other guns have trails back to the original owner. We are legal owners and it's well within our rights to express our "opinions on the subject" before someone in D.C. does it for us. I think the Obama group has heard the voice of gun owners more than once in the past few years and I'm betting that's why a lot of our post election fears have not already come to be (some want to keep their good government jobs for now). Be cautious in your wording and how you express your view, but don't bow to fear

Edited by 6500rpm
Link to post
Share on other sites

No, the DD thing is NOT tinfoil nonsense.

 

What the ATF did was say "We think the Attorney General of the United States should redefine any shotgun that has the following features as 'non-sporting' "

 

Does a stock saiga imported from Russia for civilian sale have any of those listed items? No. So it can still be imported even if the AG adopts this ATF recommendation. No problem there.

 

Do many of the currently owned saigas in the United States have any of those listed items? Hell yes. And that is a HUGE problem.

 

If you don't think the AG redefining your shotgun as being unsuitable for sporting purposes will make it a DD, then you need to reread the NFA. Here's the relevant portion:

 

From:

 

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

 

 

(4) The term "destructive device"

means—

(A) blah blah...

 

(B) any type of weapon (other than

a shotgun or a shotgun shell which

the Attorney General finds is generally

recognized as particularly suitable

for sporting purposes) by

whatever name known which will, or

which may be readily converted to,

expel a projectile by the action of an

explosive or other propellant, and

which has any barrel with a bore of

more than one-half inch in diameter;

 

 

Your modified saiga-12 has to meet two criteria to be considered a DD by the NFA.

 

- Bore diameter greater than half an inch. Which all saiga-12s have.

- Be deemed unsuitable by the Attorney General for sporting purposes. And that has a high probability of happening when you consider who appointed the AG.

 

 

Very few responses to the best post in the thread. I also appreciated the analysis that this gives Obama something to present to the soccer moms without the bad press of new (congressional, at least) legislation.

 

Unfortunately, 1andy2 is dead on. I remember my own eyes widening when I first read the definition of DD a few years ago: modded Saiga-12s seemed to fit pretty well.

 

My money (wait, what money?) is on ATF issuing some "ruling" targeting S12s as DDs depending on owner's possession of certain accessories (sort of like how owning both a Glock shoulder stock and a Glock pistol renders one legally in possession of an SBR). I believe this study and its solicitation of our comments to be disingenuous window dressing for a decision that's already made. My guess is that they are going to focus their energy on cracking down on our use of mags over 5 rounds without registering our shotguns as DDs. One possibility is that they decided to allow pistol grips so that those of us with a lot of work invested into converted S12s might choose to dispose of our 6+mags, remove folding stocks, forward vertical grips, flash hiders, etc., instead of flooding them with DD registration paperwork.

 

Bummer if so.

Edited by man-at-arms
Link to post
Share on other sites

It sounds like the Saiga could be imported with a pistol grip in place.

The 4 inch depth measurement doesn't include the grip, so it's clear there as well.

Also, the new Turkish MKA1919 (AR-15 looking shotgun) to be imported by RAA looks to be in the clear as well. I first though the 4" depth measurement may restrict it, but later it is stated that sights don't count in the measurement.

 

 

Tony

 

 

The Saiga shotguns measure about 4.25" from the trigger guard to the top of the dust cover. The typical "sporting shotguns" measure just under 4" in the same ("deepest") location. I don't think this is a coincidence. They are targeting the Saiga with this "Excessive Bulk" feature. I hope I'm wrong.

 

 

EDIT: The trigger guard is not included in the measurement. Glad I'm wrong!! :)

Edited by jjjxlr8
Link to post
Share on other sites

It sounds like the Saiga could be imported with a pistol grip in place.

The 4 inch depth measurement doesn't include the grip, so it's clear there as well.

Also, the new Turkish MKA1919 (AR-15 looking shotgun) to be imported by RAA looks to be in the clear as well. I first though the 4" depth measurement may restrict it, but later it is stated that sights don't count in the measurement.

 

 

Tony

 

 

The Saiga shotguns measure about 4.25" from the trigger guard to the top of the dust cover. The typical "sporting shotguns" measure just under 4" in the same ("deepest") location. I don't think this is a coincidence. They are targeting the Saiga with this "Excessive Bulk" feature. I hope I'm wrong.

 

 

EDIT: The trigger guard is not included in the measurement. Glad I'm wrong!! :)

sometimes its good to be wrong. LOL. i wonder how many people whipped out the tapemeasures last night?

Link to post
Share on other sites

So aside from all the banter, is the Saiga 12 gonna be deemed a DD or not?!?!

good question. why dont you go read the study. then tell us what you think.

I did read the study, its unclear, I figured someone who had more insight on the subject could help out.

you just awnsered youre own question. its unclear. only people who know for sure are the atf. as it stands nothing has changed. will things change? again only the atf knows for sure. till then, go shoot your saiga and have fun.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Even though the yellow sheet stays with the dealer, who do you think the phone call with your drivers license is made to-maybe the tooth fairy :rolleyes:

 

When dealers call in your NCIC, we are only asked Handgun or Long gun. "they" don't know if you bought a pardner single shot .22 or Saiga 12.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

They don't call anyone if you have a CCW permit.naaaa.gif

 

Wait...what? Since when? In my state a CCW permit does not allow a bypass of the NICS check. I thought this was the case everywhere.

 

Nope. In NC, if you have a CHL, you can walk in, sign a few papers and walk out with any handgun, rifle, or shotgun in about 10 minutes. No additional background check is done since the sheriff's office physically confiscates your CHL should you become ineligible to own/purchase a firearm. Thus, if you can produce a CHL, you are showing that LE has nothing on you preventing the purchase of a firearm.

 

This is allowed under the NCIS guidelines.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Chatbox

    Load More
    You don't have permission to chat.
×
×
  • Create New...