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ATF Shotgun Study - Here it is!


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This is not true. I spoke with them this week and they are still importing Saiga's. Things are just moving much slower due to the distributor companies buying all his inventory and jacking the prices

I have been going to the ATF website every day looking to see what they have posted and today I see that the Study that has been touted since last week in now posted. Here is a link to the study:  

I will make sure I put some videos up on Youtube of 5-shot, 2 minute-long mag dumps so people will see how sporting my Saigas are.   I don't see the sky falling, despite some comments here.   Wh

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"As of today you can send comments on the study to shotgunstudy@atf.gov. Read the study and make some thoughtfull comments, but please don't rant. I just sent my first one and plan to send more. "

 

 

IF, you gotta rant, do it here, and not to them, as they are sure to publicly read every "Bubba" post as those being most representative of gun owners, you can forget about the thousands of good letters, it they get one bad one.

 

And that includes the Molon Labe shit, the "we need them to overthrow the guvmint" stuff, and anything in a vein like that.

 

This is going to be a battle fought publicly, don't fuck it up for all involved, by showing the extreme end of the spectrum, right when they want everybody to see it.

 

Right now, all of us have more in common with the nutzo/scumbag congressional shooter in Arizona, than we do with a large portion of the US public, we legally own guns, just as he did.

 

Let them perceive, NOTE, PERCEIVE that we are also mentally unstable, or at least, we appear that way, and you are doing double damage in the eyes of a large part of the people in this country.

 

Never let a great tragedy go to waste, thats their words, don't help prove the point.

 

BTW R & R, that above utube vid would look great being shown at the ATF after study Report being shown to congress, especially love the use of "Problem Child" along with completely insane looking 20 round donkey dick mags fired as fast as you can pull the trigger.

 

It really shows to the general public exactly how "Sporting" the Saiga is.

 

Seriously, I find self censorship, and the NEED to do it, fucking reprehensible, but you, we, all of us, better start thinking about what face we want to put on the SAIGA community right now.

Edited by frick
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i dont think R&R's video would be harmful. i think it would prove how sporting the saiga really is. in that video, they are specialized competition guns being used for a real competition. speed and accuracy is the point of 3 gun competitions, which we are currently trying to prove to be a sport. i hope you get what i mean. its not some 20 rd bumpfire video, its highly controlled fast fire in a competition, being done by experts.

Edited by yooper14
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i dont think R&R's video would be harmful. i think it would prove how sporting the saiga really is. in that video, they are specialized competition guns being used for a real competition. speed and accuracy is the point of 3 gun competitions, which we are currently trying to prove to be a sport. i hope you get what i mean. its not some 20 rd bumpfire video, its highly controlled fast fire in a competition, being done by experts.

 

 

Is this the same Yooper from www.yooperrj.com? If so welcome aboard brother..... If not still welcome aboard.....

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I would venture that if you polled a thousand people, 80% would have no idea what a 3 gun competition is, and 15% would know that its a shooting sport, and 5% would actually know what it was.

 

Its not the competition, its how the gun looks during the competition, with high cap mags, being a key word right now, showing how fast you can change them, isn't going to impress more people, than its going to scare.

 

And seriously, the 20 rounder, its like the 55 to 100 round AK stick mags, that look like an Uber Chaut Chaut magazine, they both scream "LOOK AT ME, I AM NOT OWNED BY SANE PEOPLE"

 

This is America, I will die for your right to own 20 round Saiga mags, and 100 round AK stick mags, thats what makes us a free country.

 

But, wars are not won on the ground in this country anymore, they are won on the airwaves, cable TV, and the internet, and the wars end when "Public Perception" sways to the side getting or giving the best press against the other side.

 

You talk about the "Fudds" that have a Saiga in their safe, and how mad they are gonna get if their one "bad" weapon is banned?

 

They are middle of the road "Moderates", and nothing short of life and limb is going to get them off their asses to get angry enough to do anything, and probably a large percentage of them would willingly turn in the Saiga, to feel safe about keeping their "Hunting" guns, that grandpa used to use, in the good ol' days, when people still hunted.

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I like the comment on magazine and tube loading. They said that the tube could be loaded faster than a magazine with the aid of a loading device, But the magazine in high cap form represents the ability to engage targets in regards to Law Enforcement and Military. So what they are saying is the gun would not do us any good in a home invasion situation in the form that they would like us to have it if not have it at all?

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I would venture that if you polled a thousand people, 80% would have no idea what a 3 gun competition is, and 15% would know that its a shooting sport, and 5% would actually know what it was.

 

Its not the competition, its how the gun looks during the competition, with high cap mags, being a key word right now, showing how fast you can change them, isn't going to impress more people, than its going to scare.

 

And seriously, the 20 rounder, its like the 55 to 100 round AK stick mags, that look like an Uber Chaut Chaut magazine, they both scream "LOOK AT ME, I AM NOT OWNED BY SANE PEOPLE"

 

This is America, I will die for your right to own 20 round Saiga mags, and 100 round AK stick mags, thats what makes us a free country.

 

But, wars are not won on the ground in this country anymore, they are won on the airwaves, cable TV, and the internet, and the wars end when "Public Perception" sways to the side getting or giving the best press against the other side.

 

You talk about the "Fudds" that have a Saiga in their safe, and how mad they are gonna get if their one "bad" weapon is banned?

 

They are middle of the road "Moderates", and nothing short of life and limb is going to get them off their asses to get angry enough to do anything, and probably a large percentage of them would willingly turn in the Saiga, to feel safe about keeping their "Hunting" guns, that grandpa used to use, in the good ol' days, when people still hunted.

 

when it comes to the average person, sadly i have to agree with you. but i still dont think theres anything wrong with the video. its in how people see the video. if people werent so stupid, they would be like us and find that video interesting, entertaining, and possibly educational.

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I would venture that if you polled a thousand people, 80% would have no idea what a 3 gun competition is, and 15% would know that its a shooting sport, and 5% would actually know what it was.

 

Its not the competition, its how the gun looks during the competition, with high cap mags, being a key word right now, showing how fast you can change them, isn't going to impress more people, than its going to scare.

 

And seriously, the 20 rounder, its like the 55 to 100 round AK stick mags, that look like an Uber Chaut Chaut magazine, they both scream "LOOK AT ME, I AM NOT OWNED BY SANE PEOPLE"

 

This is America, I will die for your right to own 20 round Saiga mags, and 100 round AK stick mags, thats what makes us a free country.

 

But, wars are not won on the ground in this country anymore, they are won on the airwaves, cable TV, and the internet, and the wars end when "Public Perception" sways to the side getting or giving the best press against the other side.

 

You talk about the "Fudds" that have a Saiga in their safe, and how mad they are gonna get if their one "bad" weapon is banned?

 

They are middle of the road "Moderates", and nothing short of life and limb is going to get them off their asses to get angry enough to do anything, and probably a large percentage of them would willingly turn in the Saiga, to feel safe about keeping their "Hunting" guns, that grandpa used to use, in the good ol' days, when people still hunted.

 

when it comes to the average person, sadly i have to agree with you. but i still dont think theres anything wrong with the video. its in how people see the video. if people werent so stupid, they would be like us and find that video interesting, entertaining, and possibly educational.

 

I think you meant....if they were anything like us.....they would be JEALOUS :killer: and would go out buy thier own S12 and make thier own videos :smoke:

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I would venture that if you polled a thousand people, 80% would have no idea what a 3 gun competition is, and 15% would know that its a shooting sport, and 5% would actually know what it was.

 

Its not the competition, its how the gun looks during the competition, with high cap mags, being a key word right now, showing how fast you can change them, isn't going to impress more people, than its going to scare.

 

And seriously, the 20 rounder, its like the 55 to 100 round AK stick mags, that look like an Uber Chaut Chaut magazine, they both scream "LOOK AT ME, I AM NOT OWNED BY SANE PEOPLE"

 

This is America, I will die for your right to own 20 round Saiga mags, and 100 round AK stick mags, thats what makes us a free country.

 

But, wars are not won on the ground in this country anymore, they are won on the airwaves, cable TV, and the internet, and the wars end when "Public Perception" sways to the side getting or giving the best press against the other side.

 

You talk about the "Fudds" that have a Saiga in their safe, and how mad they are gonna get if their one "bad" weapon is banned?

 

They are middle of the road "Moderates", and nothing short of life and limb is going to get them off their asses to get angry enough to do anything, and probably a large percentage of them would willingly turn in the Saiga, to feel safe about keeping their "Hunting" guns, that grandpa used to use, in the good ol' days, when people still hunted.

AMEN BROTHER!!!! WHY IS EVERYBODY YELLING..... oh its just the caps lock...lol

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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2667281/posts

ATF has effectively banned import of Saiga shotguns

Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2011 5:02:36 AM by nin_kasi

This is related to a previous post From January 30th. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2666031/posts

I have a type 07 FFL (manufacturing and dealer), and one of the hottest selling items lately has been converted Saiga 12 shotguns. Due to a recent "study", Russian American Arms is no longer importing Saiga shotguns (according to my distributors). We have three distributors who deal directly with RAA, they're all on hold pending the outcome of the ATF paper recently released. ATF is accepting "comments" through May 1st, but the distributors are already pulling the product line. According to Ellet Brothers and RSR group, they're prepared to even remove the inventory tags from their databases. I'm hoping the distributors are overreacting, that nothing has been actually banned yet, and that merely high demand has cleaned them out, but no one knows for sure. Even other dealers have been responding to rumors going around.

A quick reminder, Saigas are essentially built on AK platforms, but made to conform to all "assault weapons ban" forms such as no pistol grip, low capacity magazine, no bayonet lug. These are often converted once in the US to include pistol grips, better triggers, and the like.

The ATF paper is linked below. http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/012611-study-on-importality-of-certain-shotguns.pdf

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Due to a recent "study", Russian American Arms is no longer importing Saiga shotguns (according to my distributors).

 

 

This is not true. I spoke with them this week and they are still importing Saiga's. Things are just moving much slower due to the distributor companies buying all his inventory and jacking the prices up. Probably the same distributors that are telling everyone they are no longer importing so they can get $150 more for them right now.

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"That TIME is going to COME, and I can't wait to see you guys facing registration, destruction, or burial of your permanently converted guns. I hope you kept your original parts, and didn't weld up the pin holes."

 

Getting satisfaction at the fact that responsible gun owners are losing the ability to convert their guns as they see fit SICKENS me worse than this study. You are one smug A$hole to to be touting that "l told you so" attitude when our liberties are on the verge of being abused AGAIN by the ATF. Why do you think your opinion is so God Damned important, as to be invigorated when the shit is hitting the fan for our FELLOW gun owners? Tell me what makes you better than the rest of the people on here? And better than anyone who had their guns converted as they saw fit, and within compliance of the law at the time? Are you saying it is the fault of the people who modified their guns to their preference that the ATF is hot on our heels, and thus that you are an innocent lamb in regards to possible ATF policy changes? Or that you are just smarter than everyone? If not, just tell me WTF you meant by the above statement, and how you feel it was justified.

Edited by ZombieSlayer
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Guys, calm down, the study said that all of the no-no parts were forbidden AT THE TIME OF IMPORTATION.

 

I can do whatever I want to my gun after I get it, I can even cut the barrel down to 12" if I want, all I need to do is pay a little money and fill out some papers...

 

I'll gladly pay whatever is necessary to keep my weapon the way it is.

 

And yes, I always keep the stock parts to anything that I mod...

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call me names if you want,but the truth is it was only a matter of time when a 20 rd drum was made for the sagia.some people asked md arms not to produce them because what might happen,and it did.there is no real difference between a sagia with a 20 round drum and a stryker 12,or street sweeper.well the sagia has 20 rounds while the ss had only 12,which makes it worse in the eyes of the batfags.they are scared that the peons might have to much firepower when they come after them.

Edited by bigmegina
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Due to a recent "study", Russian American Arms is no longer importing Saiga shotguns (according to my distributors).

 

 

This is not true. I spoke with them this week and they are still importing Saiga's. Things are just moving much slower due to the distributor companies buying all his inventory and jacking the prices up. Probably the same distributors that are telling everyone they are no longer importing so they can get $150 more for them right now.

 

+1 I will be buying my saiga and my parts from you when you get them in stock. If all businesses conducted things the way you do the world would be a better place.

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Well I finally got around to reading the entire "Study on the Importability of Certain Shotguns". Besides setting an example of how to use as many words as possible to say a fairly simple thing, it seems to me that the Saiga should remain on the list of importable shotguns. It doesn't have a separate pistol grip (as imported), it doesn't come with a magazine exceeding 5 rounds (as imported), it doesn't have an integrated rail system (as imported), it doesn't come with a forward pistol grip (as imported), and it's bulk receiver measurements and overall weight do not exceed the standards for importation. While it's certainly ugly (as imported), it's overall dimensions and handling characteristics fall well within those of any traditional semi-auto sporting shotgun. You could even argue that by locating the ammunition supply under the receiver rather than under the barrel, it enhances the pointability and swingability of the gun for skeet, trap and sporting clays, as well as general hunting.

 

They have obviously added the Saiga drum magazine manufactured in the U.S. because they want to make hay over the detachable magazine of the Saiga. But I believe they're making a logical fallacy in that argument. As imported, the Saiga meets all the "sporting purpose" standards of the 68' GCA. If it didn't, they never would have allowed it to be imported in the first place. Nothing in the two subsequent studies really changes that. If they try to bring up the "adaptability" of the Saiga into a "military" configuration once it gets here, then the counter-argument to that is that there's nothing in the 68' GCA that bans manufacture of "military" configuration firearms here in the U.S. Since it doesn't get "made" in that configuration until it's already here, then the 68' GCA doesn't apply. In this context, all the 68' GCA addresses is the importation of "non-sporting" firearms, not their manufacture or assembly in the U.S.

 

BATFE is free to pursue 922® violations if they so choose, as that's the "tool" Congress has given them. We all know that BATFE and the DOJ are loathe to pursue 922® cases, because many believe they will get laughed out of court. We all need to focus our efforts on exposing the logical fallacy of banning the Saiga, rather than ineffectively arguing that USPSA is a "sporting purpose". That dog won't hunt, at least not during this study.

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Ok Newb, I'll give you a reply, though by rights, you haven't been here long enough to deserve one.

 

 

Getting satisfaction at the fact that responsible gun owners are losing the ability to convert their guns as they see fit SICKENS me worse than this study.

 

Oh, I have no satisfaction is seeing anyone lose the right to anything that they wish, grow your weed, make machine guns, don't hurt anybody else, and I don't care what you do, but DON'T include in that list, doing something stupid, that brings attention to the gun community in a bad light, or worse, hurts ALL of us gun owners.

 

 

You are one smug A$hole to to be touting that "l told you so" attitude when our liberties are on the verge of being abused AGAIN by the ATF.

 

And this is news? Seems I have lived through multiple bans, machine gun, chinese ammo,chinese guns, all assault weapons, two sets of DD regulations, USAS12, and the SS/Striker12, been a lifelong gun owner and lifetime NRA member, own more guns than you will probably ever own, and as a dealer, have put many guys into guns at my cost JUST to get people into the shooting hobbies.

 

Yeah Newb, I have been around long enough to have learned a bit, and, have a bit of "Smugness" as you call it, confidence in my words is what I see it as.

 

 

Why do you think your opinion is so God Damned important, as to be invigorated when the shit is hitting the fan for our FELLOW gun owners?

 

Are you a lifetime NRA member? If not, don't even say one word more to me about why my opinion is so important, and list your qualification on why yours is any better. Till then, screw you and your opinions.

 

 

Tell me what makes you better than the rest of the people on here? And better than anyone who had their guns converted as they saw fit, and within compliance of the law at the time?

 

It goes back a few years, so I can't fault you on not knowing, but, from the beginning, there was an ongoing argument here about "Converting" saigas, in terms of legality, I have opined that when any type of folding stock/pistol grip is put on a Saiga, it is no longer "Sporting" and in terms of the law, only kosher if done to 922R regs., I also at the time warned that conversions should be easily made retro, or sporting again, as any conversion, permanent, or bolt on, could draw attention from the ATF in the future, just as had happened to the USAS12/SS/Striker12, some poo pood that, arguing that time would never come, then, the high caps rolled out, the drums rolled out, and, yes, the unwanted attention, is now upon us from the ATF.

 

Did you notice the pistol grip Saiga, and drum in the ATF report??????????

 

 

Are you saying it is the fault of the people who modified their guns to their preference that the ATF is hot on our heels, and thus that you are an innocent lamb in regards to possible ATF policy changes?

 

IN part, yes they are responsible, so are the drum manufacturers, so am I for buying conversion stocks, and mags, drums, and doing my part to make the whole system functional, I didn't buy that much, but, yes anyone in the community that has made this system popular, is at some fault, because it all adds up to make this put the Saiga shotguns, on the radar of the ATF.

 

But, there are some who do bear a heavier responsibility, in giving the community bad PR, making the saiga appear to be a trivial lead tossing death machine, or even things as small as their board handles, Zombie what? I know zombie shooting is a recognized sport and all, but, cmon, grow the fuck up already, and act like an adult.

 

 

Or that you are just smarter than everyone? If not, just tell me WTF you meant by the above statement,

 

Smarter, probably more than some, of course, not as smart as others. I advised that people consider the fact that the Saiga could face registration, and to keep the gun in a state, that it could be made sporting if needed, and that was as easy, as retaining the original parts, and not permanently welding up the two pin holes left after a trigger group conversion, again, some said that day where you needed to do that would never occur, and, it appears that the day where it will be necessary, has come closer.

 

 

and how you feel it was justified.

 

That day will come, when you have people scrambling for the original stocks, original FCG's, and for someone to redrill the sporting configuration FCG holes, and when it happens, they are gonna pay, and alot more than what those "Useless" parts sold for, when they did their permanent conversions.

 

Or even better, when the day came to register every "Bad" saiga, there would be NONE to go on the list, and that would REALLY piss the ATF off.

 

Pandora's box HAS been opened spud, and its never going to close, the best we can do now is to present the Saiga shotgun system in as good a light as possible, to all write nice letters to the BATF telling them how our saigas have saved modern society from the downfall that will occur if its restricted, etc.

 

Do I hope that the report, and inevitable conclusions then rulings are bad, HELL NO, I hope they clarify forever that a Saiga thats permanently converted is fine, that we can all buy Striker12's and USAS12's, and machine guns, all of them.

 

Do I expect that to happen? No, what I expect is registration of non sporting Saiga's, and some way to ban, or make illegal the use of a high cap, or drum, in any Saiga shotgun, or at least the attempt to get both of the above.

 

Hey, If they end up tossing the whole sporting regs, from the GCA of 68, I'll join you in dancing in the streets, and I'll toss my saiga factory stock on the bonfire, and I'll gladly admit I was wrong, till then, don't hold your breath.

Edited by frick
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Ok Newb, I'll give you a reply, though by rights, you haven't been here long enough to deserve one.

 

 

Getting satisfaction at the fact that responsible gun owners are losing the ability to convert their guns as they see fit SICKENS me worse than this study.

 

Oh, I have no satisfaction is seeing anyone lose the right to anything that they wish, grow your weed, make machine guns, don't hurt anybody else, and I don't care what you do, but DON'T include in that list, doing something stupid, that brings attention to the gun community in a bad light, or worse, hurts ALL of us gun owners.

 

 

You are one smug A$hole to to be touting that "l told you so" attitude when our liberties are on the verge of being abused AGAIN by the ATF.

 

And this is news? Seems I have lived through multiple bans, machine gun, chinese ammo,chinese guns, all assault weapons, two sets of DD regulations, USAS12, and the SS/Striker12, been a lifelong gun owner and lifetime NRA member, own more guns than you will probably ever own, and as a dealer, have put many guys into guns at my cost JUST to get people into the shooting hobbies.

 

Yeah Newb, I have been around long enough to have learned a bit, and, have a bit of "Smugness" as you call it, confidence in my words is what I see it as.

 

 

Why do you think your opinion is so God Damned important, as to be invigorated when the shit is hitting the fan for our FELLOW gun owners?

 

Are you a lifetime NRA member? If not, don't even say one word more to me about why my opinion is so important, and list your qualification on why yours is any better. Till then, screw you and your opinions.

 

 

Tell me what makes you better than the rest of the people on here? And better than anyone who had their guns converted as they saw fit, and within compliance of the law at the time?

 

It goes back a few years, so I can't fault you on not knowing, but, from the beginning, there was an ongoing argument here about "Converting" saigas, in terms of legality, I have opined that when any type of folding stock/pistol grip is put on a Saiga, it is no longer "Sporting" and in terms of the law, only kosher if done to 922R regs., I also at the time warned that conversions should be easily made retro, or sporting again, as any conversion, permanent, or bolt on, could draw attention from the ATF in the future, just as had happened to the USAS12/SS/Striker12, some poo pood that, arguing that time would never come, then, the high caps rolled out, the drums rolled out, and, yes, the unwanted attention, is now upon us from the ATF.

 

Did you notice the pistol grip Saiga, and drum in the ATF report??????????

 

 

Are you saying it is the fault of the people who modified their guns to their preference that the ATF is hot on our heels, and thus that you are an innocent lamb in regards to possible ATF policy changes?

 

IN part, yes they are responsible, so are the drum manufacturers, so am I for buying conversion stocks, and mags, drums, and doing my part to make the whole system functional, I didn't buy that much, but, yes anyone in the community that has made this system popular, is at some fault, because it all adds up to make this put the Saiga shotguns, on the radar of the ATF.

 

But, there are some who do bear a heavier responsibility, in giving the community bad PR, making the saiga appear to be a trivial lead tossing death machine, or even things as small as their board handles, Zombie what? I know zombie shooting is a recognized sport and all, but, cmon, grow the fuck up already, and act like an adult.

 

 

Or that you are just smarter than everyone? If not, just tell me WTF you meant by the above statement,

 

Smarter, probably more than some, of course, not as smart as others. I advised that people consider the fact that the Saiga could face registration, and to keep the gun in a state, that it could be made sporting if needed, and that was as easy, as retaining the original parts, and not permanently welding up the two pin holes left after a trigger group conversion, again, some said that day where you needed to do that would never occur, and, it appears that the day where it will be necessary, has come closer.

 

 

and how you feel it was justified.

 

That day will come, when you have people scrambling for the original stocks, original FCG's, and for someone to redrill the sporting configuration FCG holes, and when it happens, they are gonna pay, and alot more than what those "Useless" parts sold for, when they did their permanent conversions.

 

Or even better, when the day came to register every "Bad" saiga, there would be NONE to go on the list, and that would REALLY piss the ATF off.

 

Pandora's box HAS been opened spud, and its never going to close, the best we can do now is to present the Saiga shotgun system in as good a light as possible, to all write nice letters to the BATF telling them how our saigas have saved modern society from the downfall that will occur if its restricted, etc.

 

Do I hope that the report, and inevitable conclusions then rulings are bad, HELL NO, I hope they clarify forever that a Saiga thats permanently converted is fine, that we can all buy Striker12's and USAS12's, and machine guns, all of them.

 

Do I expect that to happen? No, what I expect is registration of non sporting Saiga's, and some way to ban, or make illegal the use of a high cap, or drum, in any Saiga shotgun, or at least the attempt to get both of the above.

 

Hey, If they end up tossing the whole sporting regs, from the GCA of 68, I'll join you in dancing in the streets, and I'll toss my saiga factory stock on the bonfire, and I'll gladly admit I was wrong, till then, don't hold your breath.

 

OK so you are a gun god, and have put your time in. l can respect your place in the gun business, whatever that may be. I also respect the fact that you took time from your godly status to give an undeserved, albeit thorough reply to a whelp like me. It helped clarify your stance on the subject enough so that if l read it a few times, l could almost understand it. l'm definitely not arguing against any of those rebuttals of yours, THEY make some kinda sense. And while l cant argue that l just barely signed on, have a comical user name, and know shite compared to you, l would like to point out that you still havent owned up to, or explained the fact that you say "I can't wait to see you guys facing registration, destruction, or burial of your permanently converted guns." and still consider yourself a god in the saiga community. And while l may be a complete newbidiot, lm ok with that, because lm not a megalomaniacal know it all, who get his rocks off on saying "l told you so, l told you so, l was right all along, look at me, look at me" to people who may have had different opinions than you, but were probably actually a lot like you. Without the deep-seated need to always be right, and have others acknowledge that fact of course. Admittedly my feeble mind became angry at your statement, but that is a by-product of my own inferiority. So l, being thoroughly enlightened by a far superior intellect, admit l had no right to even think of commenting on your demoralizing rant of superiority over the rest of us, will concede. You sir, are the cat's meow. MEEEOOOWWW :kiss:

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Ok Newb, I'll give you a reply, though by rights, you haven't been here long enough to deserve one.

 

 

Getting satisfaction at the fact that responsible gun owners are losing the ability to convert their guns as they see fit SICKENS me worse than this study.

 

Oh, I have no satisfaction is seeing anyone lose the right to anything that they wish, grow your weed, make machine guns, don't hurt anybody else, and I don't care what you do, but DON'T include in that list, doing something stupid, that brings attention to the gun community in a bad light, or worse, hurts ALL of us gun owners.

 

 

You are one smug A$hole to to be touting that "l told you so" attitude when our liberties are on the verge of being abused AGAIN by the ATF.

 

And this is news? Seems I have lived through multiple bans, machine gun, chinese ammo,chinese guns, all assault weapons, two sets of DD regulations, USAS12, and the SS/Striker12, been a lifelong gun owner and lifetime NRA member, own more guns than you will probably ever own, and as a dealer, have put many guys into guns at my cost JUST to get people into the shooting hobbies.

 

Yeah Newb, I have been around long enough to have learned a bit, and, have a bit of "Smugness" as you call it, confidence in my words is what I see it as.

 

 

Why do you think your opinion is so God Damned important, as to be invigorated when the shit is hitting the fan for our FELLOW gun owners?

 

Are you a lifetime NRA member? If not, don't even say one word more to me about why my opinion is so important, and list your qualification on why yours is any better. Till then, screw you and your opinions.

 

 

Tell me what makes you better than the rest of the people on here? And better than anyone who had their guns converted as they saw fit, and within compliance of the law at the time?

 

It goes back a few years, so I can't fault you on not knowing, but, from the beginning, there was an ongoing argument here about "Converting" saigas, in terms of legality, I have opined that when any type of folding stock/pistol grip is put on a Saiga, it is no longer "Sporting" and in terms of the law, only kosher if done to 922R regs., I also at the time warned that conversions should be easily made retro, or sporting again, as any conversion, permanent, or bolt on, could draw attention from the ATF in the future, just as had happened to the USAS12/SS/Striker12, some poo pood that, arguing that time would never come, then, the high caps rolled out, the drums rolled out, and, yes, the unwanted attention, is now upon us from the ATF.

 

Did you notice the pistol grip Saiga, and drum in the ATF report??????????

 

 

Are you saying it is the fault of the people who modified their guns to their preference that the ATF is hot on our heels, and thus that you are an innocent lamb in regards to possible ATF policy changes?

 

IN part, yes they are responsible, so are the drum manufacturers, so am I for buying conversion stocks, and mags, drums, and doing my part to make the whole system functional, I didn't buy that much, but, yes anyone in the community that has made this system popular, is at some fault, because it all adds up to make this put the Saiga shotguns, on the radar of the ATF.

 

But, there are some who do bear a heavier responsibility, in giving the community bad PR, making the saiga appear to be a trivial lead tossing death machine, or even things as small as their board handles, Zombie what? I know zombie shooting is a recognized sport and all, but, cmon, grow the fuck up already, and act like an adult.

 

 

Or that you are just smarter than everyone? If not, just tell me WTF you meant by the above statement,

 

Smarter, probably more than some, of course, not as smart as others. I advised that people consider the fact that the Saiga could face registration, and to keep the gun in a state, that it could be made sporting if needed, and that was as easy, as retaining the original parts, and not permanently welding up the two pin holes left after a trigger group conversion, again, some said that day where you needed to do that would never occur, and, it appears that the day where it will be necessary, has come closer.

 

 

and how you feel it was justified.

 

That day will come, when you have people scrambling for the original stocks, original FCG's, and for someone to redrill the sporting configuration FCG holes, and when it happens, they are gonna pay, and alot more than what those "Useless" parts sold for, when they did their permanent conversions.

 

Or even better, when the day came to register every "Bad" saiga, there would be NONE to go on the list, and that would REALLY piss the ATF off.

 

Pandora's box HAS been opened spud, and its never going to close, the best we can do now is to present the Saiga shotgun system in as good a light as possible, to all write nice letters to the BATF telling them how our saigas have saved modern society from the downfall that will occur if its restricted, etc.

 

Do I hope that the report, and inevitable conclusions then rulings are bad, HELL NO, I hope they clarify forever that a Saiga thats permanently converted is fine, that we can all buy Striker12's and USAS12's, and machine guns, all of them.

 

Do I expect that to happen? No, what I expect is registration of non sporting Saiga's, and some way to ban, or make illegal the use of a high cap, or drum, in any Saiga shotgun, or at least the attempt to get both of the above.

 

Hey, If they end up tossing the whole sporting regs, from the GCA of 68, I'll join you in dancing in the streets, and I'll toss my saiga factory stock on the bonfire, and I'll gladly admit I was wrong, till then, don't hold your breath.

 

I think you're a overly dramatic pessimist, who is very bravos about his negative opinion about how things will transpire. Unfortunately, as I stated before, you lack any conviction in the drivel you spew. I also recall a moderator requesting that this thread stay on track. Hopefully you've said your piece and fell comfortable enough to move on. <_<

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