ATF Shotgun Study - Here it is!

[physicsnerd 139]

I know I am applying logic and logic is immiscible with the ATF but here are my thoughts. Hypothetically the ATF bans importation of the Saiga 12 (I'm not going to get into the DD stuff for now as it is not relevant to my point) because it is semi-auto and takes box magazines capable of holding more than 5 rounds.

 

Then to remain consistent wouldn't they also have to ban the importation of Saiga rifles (how many of these are kept in sporter configuration and how many are converted?) since they have "high capacity" magazines available (for both bullet guide added and non bullet guide rifles), Century couldn't import the WASRs because they process them and sell them with 30 rounders, Draco pistols would be axed, Arsenal couldn't import anything as they turn Bulgarian/Russian/Etc guns back into AK form.

 

My predictions (which aren't worth anything really but this whole thread is about them so why not ) are one of the following scenarios:

1) Saiga 12s are allowed for importation as an imported weapon they can posses none of the "evil" features that would disallow importation. Using a magazine with capacity of >5 rounds requires compliance with 922r which is then considered a domestic manufacture with foreign parts and thus is not, as I understand it, an "imported" weapon. A note of clarification. As I understand it, a company like Ruger could not manufacture a rifle in the US if it used 11 or more foreign made parts just like we can't do that by taking a Saiga and making it "non-sporting" by having 11 or more foreign made parts.

 

or

 

2) Using some twisted logic the ATF bans importation of the Saiga 12 but ownership and sale of them is unaffected. This would be the SPAS-12 and SPAS-15 case. As I understand, these were eventually banned from importation but owning them is a Title 1 firearm and anyone can own one, you just can't bring them into the country.

 

I say these because the difference between the Saiga 12 and those declared DDs (USAS-12 and Stryker 12) is that the S12 is easily made to be ready for sporting purposes even with a pistol grip. The USAS and Stryker suffered (unfairly but just to make the point) from a lack of threaded barrels and small capacity magazines. As I mentioned in another thread, KY Fish and Wildlife said a converted Saiga was fine for hunting as long as I adhered to the round maximums. The existence of several ways to choke the S12 (factory chokes, Cobra's RemChoke adapters and the PolyChoke II) as well as Russian and Surefire 2 round magazines helps our case. These same arguments could not be made for the USAS or Stryker. I guess you could plug the 10 rounder for the USAS but I imagine plugging a Stryker for use on the clays course or game field would be much trickier.

 

When I get my S12 back (and I have severe withdrawal as I haven't shot my S12 since mid-March 2010) I can play at the range with my MD20s and >5 round Surefires (and my awesome Factory 8) then get in the car, screw on my choke and use my factory 2 rounder and hunt game or shoot a course of clays.

 

Again I'm using logic but as I've already emailed representatives and senators and emailed the ATF my comments I figure I can use a little logic to keep me calm and see what happens. At the end of the day, that is about all I can do and worrying more or getting upset (two things that I am prone to do) really doesn't get me anywhere.

[lokmeup 30]

In my conversation with Brian from RedDragunWeapons about his up coming shipment of Saiga 12s EXP-01-030's, he described his sit down conversation with ATF agents regarding the Saiga 12.

 

According to the conversation:

 

• The picitinny rail on the bottom of the front gas block on the 200 Saiga 12s EXP-01-030 he is importing is NOT FOR SPORTING USE.
  
• They will allow the current 200 on order into the states, as they were already approved for import.
  
• Future Saiga 12's will not be allowed to have the lower picitinny rail
  
• Pistol grips may possible be imported in the future, as pistol grips have been deemed FOR SPORTING USE.
  

From his conversation, it DID NOT seem like they were going to be taking away our precious S12's... but actually allow the importation of FULL PISTOL GRIP VERSIONS...

 

Only time will tell.

Edited February 21, 2011 by lokmeup

[PostsOnPercocet 32]

In my conversation with Brian from RedDragunWeapons about his up coming shipment of Saiga 12s EXP-01-030's, he described his sit down conversation with ATF agents regarding the Saiga 12.

 

According to the conversation:

 

• The picitinny rail on the bottom of the front gas block on the 200 Saiga 12s EXP-01-030 he is importing is NOT FOR SPORTING USE.
• They will allow the current 200 on order into the states, as they were already approved for import.
• Future Saiga 12's will not be allowed to have the lower picitinny rail
• Pistol grips may possible be imported in the future, as pistol grips have been deemed FOR SPORTING USE.

From his conversation, it DID NOT seem like they were going to be taking away our precious S12's... but actually allow the importation of FULL PISTOL GRIP VERSIONS...

 

Only time will tell.

 

Well I hope I have to eat crow and that you're right!

 

You know what though? It still pisses me off that we are sitting here like a bunch of little Nancy boy's saying, "oh I sure do hope they let us keep our guns...". I don't know how we've reached this state. This shouldn't even be an issue.

Edited February 21, 2011 by PostsOnPercocet

[tktm 13]

In my conversation with Brian from RedDragunWeapons about his up coming shipment of Saiga 12s EXP-01-030's, he described his sit down conversation with ATF agents regarding the Saiga 12.

 

According to the conversation:

 

• The picitinny rail on the bottom of the front gas block on the 200 Saiga 12s EXP-01-030 he is importing is NOT FOR SPORTING USE.
• They will allow the current 200 on order into the states, as they were already approved for import.
• Future Saiga 12's will not be allowed to have the lower picitinny rail
• Pistol grips may possible be imported in the future, as pistol grips have been deemed FOR SPORTING USE.

From his conversation, it DID NOT seem like they were going to be taking away our precious S12's... but actually allow the importation of FULL PISTOL GRIP VERSIONS...

 

Only time will tell.

 

The status quo should stay as it is until the comment period on the the "study" is over; so he is getting hosed by the ATF. The president does not have to wait to take action, but at least I would expect some announcement about it. Of course, if he fights it he risks having his inventory held up in litigation and there is a risk of not getting them out before the ban. As I said before, I would not expect the import ban to go into full effect until after Rep Giffords is able to address the public.

[Jeep297 20]

In my conversation with Brian from RedDragunWeapons about his up coming shipment of Saiga 12s EXP-01-030's, he described his sit down conversation with ATF agents regarding the Saiga 12.

 

According to the conversation:

 

• The picitinny rail on the bottom of the front gas block on the 200 Saiga 12s EXP-01-030 he is importing is NOT FOR SPORTING USE.
• They will allow the current 200 on order into the states, as they were already approved for import.
• Future Saiga 12's will not be allowed to have the lower picitinny rail
• Pistol grips may possible be imported in the future, as pistol grips have been deemed FOR SPORTING USE.

From his conversation, it DID NOT seem like they were going to be taking away our precious S12's... but actually allow the importation of FULL PISTOL GRIP VERSIONS...

 

Only time will tell.

 

Although their list of "non-sporting" features are ridiculous, the last point above would be fantastic news. Instead of banning them, we would be getting them in much closer to the configuration we all go for anyway. I'd be pleasantly shocked if it happened. Wonder how far prices of un-converted saigas would go down if this became the case. All the people buying them at $700+ right now may be pretty pissed. I'd gladly lose money on some of my guns for more freedom/diversity in what we are allowed to own though.

Edited February 21, 2011 by Jeep297

[frick 3]

"I say no one is "Banning" the current S-12.

 

Anyone want to bet?

 

Come on. One of you SCARETASTIC nimrods must feel strongly enough about your convictions to assign a dollar value.

 

ANYONE?!?!"

 

 

 

Sure, I assigned a dollar value way back, you just keep ignoring my asking price. Its simple, if they are banned, I estimate they will approximately double in value, once the frenzy settled down.

 

I see Striker 12's at about 1200 bucks, double what they retailed for.

 

You can have all of my stuff you want, at double the current value, so, since we have reports of NIB Saigas with retail prices of about 1000.00, I figure mine as it sits is worth about 2800.00.

 

Cash of course, I'd have to add up all the factory mags, lo cap and high cap, US made mags, drums etc, but, I figure all at double the retail value, probably pushing 6,000.00 or a bit more.

 

You got the cash smart ass????

 

 

 

OR better yet, go troll the BATF past rulings, concerning firearms of this type, and give us some factual evidence of what their past actions have been? Or at least some other data to support your insistence that nothing will happen.

[Bridis 319]

LOL @ you. You honestly don't think they won't ban these? When they are way more "destructive" in the eyes of the ATF than the sweeper and stryker?

 

You're either VERY ignorant or a troll.

 

Ever heard the phrase, "Put your money where your mouth is"? It's similar to, "Put up or shut up". Which is a derivative of, "Money talks and BS walks". I think you get where I'm going with this.

[frick 3]

LOL @ you. You honestly don't think they won't ban these? When they are way more "destructive" in the eyes of the ATF than the sweeper and stryker?

 

You're either VERY ignorant or a troll.

 

Ever heard the phrase, "Put your money where your mouth is"? It's similar to, "Put up or shut up". Which is a derivative of, "Money talks and BS walks". I think you get where I'm going with this.

 

Sorry, I still don't get it? You want to pay up or not???

[Bridis 319]

Sure, I assigned a dollar value way back, you just keep ignoring my asking price. Its simple, if they are banned, I estimate they will approximately double in value, once the frenzy settled down.

 

I see Striker 12's at about 1200 bucks, double what they retailed for.

 

You can have all of my stuff you want, at double the current value, so, since we have reports of NIB Saigas with retail prices of about 1000.00, I figure mine as it sits is worth about 2800.00.

 

Cash of course, I'd have to add up all the factory mags, lo cap and high cap, US made mags, drums etc, but, I figure all at double the retail value, probably pushing 6,000.00 or a bit more.

 

You got the cash smart ass????

 

 

 

OR better yet, go troll the BATF past rulings, concerning firearms of this type, and give us some factual evidence of what their past actions have been? Or at least some other data to support your insistence that nothing will happen.

 

Any douche bag can bet with what he doesn't have. You want to assign an actual dollar value ass bag? Lets go Saiga for Saiga.

 

Money up clown or the rest of what you say is shit.

Edited February 22, 2011 by Bridis

[Bridis 319]

Sorry, I still don't get it? You want to pay up or not???

 

I'm not paying you anything, stupid. It's called a bet. Which implys a certain risk based on an outcome. Quit being stupid if that's possible.

Edited February 22, 2011 by Bridis

[frick 3]

Sure, you offered 400 correct? If thats your opinion of their future value, I'll take yours for that price.

 

Cmon, if you feel the gun is going to be worthless, I'll honor your opinion.

[Bridis 319]

Sure, you offered 400 correct? If thats your opinion of their future value, I'll take yours for that price.

 

Cmon, if you feel the gun is going to be worthless, I'll honor your opinion.

 

 

Huh? Why would I think the S-12 are going to be worthless if I'm offering to buy them? I was trying to help out all of the dummies who think the gubment is comming to take their guns. I figured the $400.00 would at least pay a month or two of their trailer rent. Then I could sell them to all of the other dummies who think they're going to be banned for $650.00 a pop.

 

What I really think is scare mongers like you drive the price of the guns up. Sure they'll come back down, once the study is complete. But you'll most likely never see them sell for under $450.00 again, and that's being optimistic.

 

Anyway, you in for a Saiga vs Saiga or not?

Edited February 22, 2011 by Bridis

[PostsOnPercocet 32]

Sure, you offered 400 correct? If thats your opinion of their future value, I'll take yours for that price.

 

Cmon, if you feel the gun is going to be worthless, I'll honor your opinion.

 

 

Huh? Why would I think the S-12 are going to be worthless if I'm offering to buy them? I was trying to help out all of the dummies who think the gubment is comming to take their guns. I figured the $400.00 would at least pay a month or two of their trailer rent. Then I could sell them to all of the other dummies who think they're going to be banned for $650.00 a pop.

 

What I really think is scare mongers like you drive the price of the guns up. Sure they'll come back down, once the study is complete. But you'll most likely never see them sell for under $450.00 again, and that's being optimistic.

 

Anyway, you in for a Saiga vs Saiga or not?

 

He made you a dollar amount bet. Now you're being a pussy. Typical.

 

Look, douche, I hope you're right. But (and I know you're a troll and I'm wasting my time) these will go the way of the sweeper and stryker.

 

You know what everyone? Ignore this troll. That's the only way he'll go away.

[Mike1234567 26]

 

 

[frick 3]

"What I really think is scare mongers like you drive the price of the guns up. Sure they'll come back down, once the study is complete. But you'll most likely never see them sell for under $450.00 again, and that's being optimistic."

 

NOTE TO SELF: Contact my brother in law in charge at the ATF tomorrow morning, and tell him to leak to the press that the Ban has already been approved for all S-12's, and then capitalize by selling my one saiga 12, and then retiring on the profits.

 

 

Yeah right.

 

And guess what dipshit, when the first Saigas were selling for under 450, it was because NOBODY knew WTF they were, there were no aftermarket mags, let alone accessories, and nobody really WANTED THEM!

 

Then, damn near a decade later, after they have been transformed into complete, and successful weapons platform, with plenty of accessories, and a LIMITED SUPPLY, with STRONG DEMAND, you, note, YOU, find it heartbreaking that they will never be under 450 bucks anymore.

 

Well, jump on the "Wahh Wahhhhh Wagon" bud, because their ain't gonna be any more Colt Ar15's for 500 bucks, and no more Norinco AK double underfolders for 400 bucks, and no more cheap steel cored chinese 762 x 39 ammo for 60 bucks a thousand.

 

Yet, you come here, and offer nothing but a crap opinion, and a cheapskate offer for our guns.

 

The day the AWB sunsetted, the contents of my gunsafe were worth one hell of a lot less, and I stood up and CHEERED!

 

You miss the point, that at least I, and some others are making, and thats get what you can now, at a reasonable cost, because chances are, based on PRIOR FACTUAL ACTIONS BY THE ATF, the Saiga weapons system is a BUG under a MAGNIFYING GLASS with the ATF ready to stick a BIG PIN in it, and YES, you may end up with stuff you overpaid for, or you MAY end up with stuff that you can NO LONGER BUY.

 

But, at the very least, get your head out of your ass, and weigh the facts, and the potential outcome of this study/probably come something worse.

Edited February 22, 2011 by frick

[PostsOnPercocet 32]

"What I really think is scare mongers like you drive the price of the guns up. Sure they'll come back down, once the study is complete. But you'll most likely never see them sell for under $450.00 again, and that's being optimistic."

 

NOTE TO SELF: Contact my brother in law in charge at the ATF tomorrow morning, and tell him to leak to the press that the Ban has already been approved for all S-12's, and then capitalize by selling my one saiga 12, and then retiring on the profits.

 

 

Yeah right.

 

And guess what dipshit, when the first Saigas were selling for under 450, it was because NOBODY knew WTF they were, there were no aftermarket mags, let alone accessories, and nobody really WANTED THEM!

 

Then, damn near a decade later, after they have been transformed into complete, and successful weapons platform, with plenty of accessories, and a LIMITED SUPPLY, with STRONG DEMAND, you, note, YOU, find it heartbreaking that they will never be under 450 bucks anymore.

 

Well, jump on the "Wahh Wahhhhh Wagon" bud, because their ain't gonna be any more Colt Ar15's for 500 bucks, and no more Norinco AK double underfolders for 400 bucks, and no more cheap steel cored chinese 762 x 39 ammo for 60 bucks a thousand.

 

Yet, you come here, and offer nothing but a crap opinion, and a cheapskate offer for our guns.

 

The day the AWB sunsetted, the contents of my gunsafe were worth one hell of a lot less, and I stood up and CHEERED!

 

You miss the point, that at least I, and some others are making, and thats get what you can now, at a reasonable cost, because chances are, based on PRIOR FACTUAL ACTIONS BY THE ATF, the Saiga weapons system is a BUG under a MAGNIFYING GLASS with the ATF ready to stick a BIG PIN in it, and YES, you may end up with stuff you overpaid for, or you MAY end up with stuff that you can NO LONGER BUY.

 

But, at the very least, get your head out of your ass, and weigh the facts, and the potential outcome of this study/probably come something worse.

 

He's a troll, ignore him.

[sunnybean 939]

WOW! WTF happened to this thread. Now we're eating our own?

[Bridis 319]

He made you a dollar amount bet. Now you're being a pussy. Typical.

 

Look, douche, I hope you're right. But (and I know you're a troll and I'm wasting my time) these will go the way of the sweeper and stryker.

 

You know what everyone? Ignore this troll. That's the only way he'll go away.

 

He didn't bet me anything. He basically offerd to sell me all of his shit for an inflated price. Look, I know it's tough for a lot of people to get out of the land of make believe. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to bet on their fantasasies. He doesn't have $6,000.00 to bet, but he does have an S-12.

 

Do you have an S-12 that you'd care to wager?

 

BTW, I like how you dismiss me as a troll simply because I have a different opinion. However, it would seem that I would be futher from a troll than others promoting the SCARE. As I am willing to back up what I'm saying.

[Mullet Man 2,114]

WOW! WTF happened to this thread. Now we're eating our own?

 

 

Divide and conquer!

[Dad2142Dad 6,559]

He's a troll, ignore him.

 

Hum, Dude he's been here for five years and you have been here for two weeks? Now I am new as well but WTF?

[PostsOnPercocet 32]

He made you a dollar amount bet. Now you're being a pussy. Typical.

 

Look, douche, I hope you're right. But (and I know you're a troll and I'm wasting my time) these will go the way of the sweeper and stryker.

 

You know what everyone? Ignore this troll. That's the only way he'll go away.

 

He didn't bet me anything. He basically offerd to sell me all of his shit for an inflated price. Look, I know it's tough for a lot of people to get out of the land of make believe. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to bet on their fantasasies. He doesn't have $6,000.00 to bet, but he does have an S-12.

 

Do you have an S-12 that you'd care to wager?

 

BTW, I like how you dismiss me as a troll simply because I have a different opinion. However, it would seem that I would be futher from a troll than others promoting the SCARE. As I am willing to back up what I'm saying.

 

Troll, troll, troll, your post, gently down the thread....

[Bridis 319]

 

BLAHHH BLAAHH BLAAHH!!

 

 

You've made your point. OVER AND OVER AND OVER. But the fact still remains that you don't know any more than anyone else. However, you somehow feel the need to keep beating the dead horse. The sad thing is you can't back up what you say with ANYTHING. Not even your integrity.

 

Sad...

[PostsOnPercocet 32]

He's a troll, ignore him.

 

Hum, Dude he's been here for five years and you have been here for two weeks? Now I am new as well but WTF?

 

Well it's obvious he either hit his head, or a retard hacked his account.

[CaptainSwitchblade 0]

Grenade launchers have a particular military application and are not

currently used for sporting purposes.

 

Am I the only one who got a chuckle out of this?

[Mike1234567 26]

WOW! WTF happened to this thread. Now we're eating our own?

 

[SaigaKen 338]

WOW! WTF happened to this thread. Now we're eating our own?

 

 

Your right and damn....some guys have more time than they know what to do with.......I would think if we spent as much time lobbying for our rights as much as some guys on here argue about complete bullshit......problem would be solved.........

[bigmegina 3]

"Government is not reason,it is like fire,a fearful servent and a terrible Master"Quote from George Washington.substitute ATF for government.

Edited February 23, 2011 by bigmegina

[BobAsh 582]

WOW! WTF happened to this thread. Now we're eating our own?

 

It's the usual rambling mix of wild speculation, ignorant opinion and tin-foil-hattery.

 

Actually, TROMIX and every other vendor on this board are "putting our money where our mouth is".

 

We are all betting that the platform has a future, and we spend money every day investing in it.

 

The armchair gunsmiths on this board are pretty funny sometimes.

[PostsOnPercocet 32]

WOW! WTF happened to this thread. Now we're eating our own?

 

It's the usual rambling mix of wild speculation, ignorant opinion and tin-foil-hattery.

 

Actually, TROMIX and every other vendor on this board are "PRAYING".

 

We are all betting that the platform has a future, and we spend money every day investing in it.

 

The armchair gunsmiths on this board are pretty funny sometimes.

 

 

Fixed that for you.

 

 

You mean the people that are going off of past history, as opposed to nothing more than hope because the platform makes us money?

 

Like I said, I hope I'm wrong, but given what the ATF has done with shotguns of less stature than these in the past, I hope you have other revenue streams. That isn't tin foil hattery, it's called an educated guess.

[frick 3]

Just wondering where Bob Ash of TROMIX would place my opinion?

 

Am I tin foil hat? Perhaps ignorant opinion? I think probably "armchair gunsmith" because I have advocated double thinking the permanent conversion process from the beginning.

 

 

You wanna see EAT YOUR OWN?

 

Look at Olympic Arms, they have NEVER regained their stature after the whole steel core ammo fiasco, and, why should they, a bad BUSINESS decision, to chamber four test pistols in 7.62 x 39 cost a whole lot of other BUSINESSES, millions, no, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, in lost ammo sales.

 

IF, and as I have STATED IF, the ATF comes down on the Saiga platform, there are gonna be a whole lot of folks, who remember the MD20 drum in the initial report. Is it unfair, I dunno, ask Olympic Arms, it was a business decision, they are familiar with the ramifications.

 

And as for Tromix, I am sure that you can find an overseas market for scary looking door breachers, and 4" barreled, fully automatic Saigas, much like the current owner of the Striker12 has done.

 

Or, wait, no he hasn't because no other country allows its people to freely own such scary looking, compact, fast firing, weapons, not even the country of origin of the Saiga.

 

So, Bob Ash of TROMIX, the number one name in saiga conversions, other than betting the platform has a future, you wanna put forth the behind the scene info, to us tin hatters, and ingorant opinioners, as to why, WE should be betting on the positive future of the Saiga right now?

 

I mean, it would be a good investment in future business to assure us as to why we should pack up our Saigas and ship them to TROMIX for a permanent conversion, wouldn't it?

 

 

To be clear, I am a true supporter of the 2nd Amendment, TRULY, yeah, I WANT TO BUY ANY WEAPON I WISH TO OWN, without ANY form of interference from the Government.

 

BUT, I am also SMART ENOUGH to realize that we as gun owners STILL EXIST in a poor policital climate, that could turn against gun ownership at any time.

 

Oh, they wont come and take them, Heller pretty much guaranteed at least that.

 

BUT, you still have "Reasonable restrictions" and the "Sporting Clause" hanging around to bust our NUTS for the conceivable future.

 

Do I think Tromix should not sell anything legal? NO, its well within their rights to sell any legal product, do I think Tromix has been selling products that on their face value endanger the Saiga Platform, YES, I do.

 

Frankly, I seen no real need for a twelve pound, eight sided, spiked door breaching, flash supressing, muzzle breaking, abdomination, of the type they sell.

 

But thats just me, and MY opinion, but, if that device is used, in part by the ATF to justify the demise of the whole platform, then, we can all decide how smart of a "Business Decision" it was, to create their line of products.

 

The first rule for a physician, is "to do know harm".

 

And, I think alot of folks have not considered whether their "Business Decisions" have done harm to the whole Saiga community at large.

Edited February 23, 2011 by frick