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ATF Shotgun Study - Here it is!


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Frik,

 

I don't believe your opinions are crazy. I am in agreement with you that this is nothing but a back door gun ban. All of the gun shops in my area have taken any and all saiga's and their accessories off their shelves. Even the gun show last weekend had nothing for the Saiga's. I believe that all the sunny days and rainbows that others keep touting is nothing more than a pipe dream. The fact is this, the establishment and wall street wants these and other scary looking non sporting firearms OFF the market. They want all firearms in the hands of it's citizens TAKEN AWAY, because if and I apply that loosely, if things get as bad as I foresee, and the people begin to riot here because of artificial scarcity and price hikes in gas, food, and utilities. Meaning price gouging, which is illegal, and NOT CAPITALISM, they don't want to face any dangerous opposition from it's slaves. Just take a look at the news lately, collective bargaining is not a right? Give me a break, for slaves it isn't. And when has there been a recent import of russian or norinco sks or ak's? There hasn't been any lately. Hell even Nobama cancelled the reimportation of M1 Garand's because he and lord hillary said they would get into the wrong hands. When are most of you people gonna wake and smell what you are shoveling? The writing is on the wall, all you have to do is take the time to look carefully and read it.

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This is not true. I spoke with them this week and they are still importing Saiga's. Things are just moving much slower due to the distributor companies buying all his inventory and jacking the prices

I have been going to the ATF website every day looking to see what they have posted and today I see that the Study that has been touted since last week in now posted. Here is a link to the study:  

I will make sure I put some videos up on Youtube of 5-shot, 2 minute-long mag dumps so people will see how sporting my Saigas are.   I don't see the sky falling, despite some comments here.   Wh

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Just wondering where Bob Ash of TROMIX would place my opinion?

 

Am I tin foil hat? Perhaps ignorant opinion? I think probably "armchair gunsmith" because I have advocated double thinking the permanent conversion process from the beginning.

 

 

You wanna see EAT YOUR OWN?

 

Look at Olympic Arms, they have NEVER regained their stature after the whole steel core ammo fiasco, and, why should they, a bad BUSINESS decision, to chamber four test pistols in 7.62 x 39 cost a whole lot of other BUSINESSES, millions, no, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, in lost ammo sales.

 

IF, and as I have STATED IF, the ATF comes down on the Saiga platform, there are gonna be a whole lot of folks, who remember the MD20 drum in the initial report. Is it unfair, I dunno, ask Olympic Arms, it was a business decision, they are familiar with the ramifications.

 

And as for Tromix, I am sure that you can find an overseas market for scary looking door breachers, and 4" barreled, fully automatic Saigas, much like the current owner of the Striker12 has done.

 

Or, wait, no he hasn't because no other country allows its people to freely own such scary looking, compact, fast firing, weapons, not even the country of origin of the Saiga.

 

So, Bob Ash of TROMIX, the number one name in saiga conversions, other than betting the platform has a future, you wanna put forth the behind the scene info, to us tin hatters, and ingorant opinioners, as to why, WE should be betting on the positive future of the Saiga right now?

 

I mean, it would be a good investment in future business to assure us as to why we should pack up our Saigas and ship them to TROMIX for a permanent conversion, wouldn't it?

 

 

To be clear, I am a true supporter of the 2nd Amendment, TRULY, yeah, I WANT TO BUY ANY WEAPON I WISH TO OWN, without ANY form of interference from the Government.

 

BUT, I am also SMART ENOUGH to realize that we as gun owners STILL EXIST in a poor policital climate, that could turn against gun ownership at any time.

 

Oh, they wont come and take them, Heller pretty much guaranteed at least that.

 

BUT, you still have "Reasonable restrictions" and the "Sporting Clause" hanging around to bust our NUTS for the conceivable future.

 

Do I think Tromix should not sell anything legal? NO, its well within their rights to sell any legal product, do I think Tromix has been selling products that on their face value endanger the Saiga Platform, YES, I do.

 

Frankly, I seen no real need for a twelve pound, eight sided, spiked door breaching, flash supressing, muzzle breaking, abdomination, of the type they sell.

 

But thats just me, and MY opinion, but, if that device is used, in part by the ATF to justify the demise of the whole platform, then, we can all decide how smart of a "Business Decision" it was, to create their line of products.

 

The first rule for a physician, is "to do know harm".

 

And, I think alot of folks have not considered whether their "Business Decisions" have done harm to the whole Saiga community at large.

 

 

Not here to debate any of your opinion, but an internet friend of mine lives is Russian and belongs to a Saiga club and his S12 is BADASS.....(country of origin)

Edited by Saiga Power
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WOW! WTF happened to this thread. Now we're eating our own? :ded:

 

It's the usual rambling mix of wild speculation, ignorant opinion and tin-foil-hattery.

 

Actually, TROMIX and every other vendor on this board are "PRAYING".

 

We are all betting that the platform has a future, and we spend money every day investing in it.

 

The armchair gunsmiths on this board are pretty funny sometimes.

 

 

Fixed that for you.

 

 

You mean the people that are going off of past history, as opposed to nothing more than hope because the platform makes us money?

 

Like I said, I hope I'm wrong, but given what the ATF has done with shotguns of less stature than these in the past, I hope you have other revenue streams. That isn't tin foil hattery, it's called an educated guess.

Dude how many percosets have you eaten before writing this crap?

 

You sure are quick to spout off at some of the Forums most respected members with absolutely nothing to say. How about you shut the Fuck up!

 

And Prick is and A$hole, respected by no one. And l call you what l want Prick, not what you prefer, dumbass.

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SP, ask him if he could buy a modded, short barrel, Saiga, from the USA, and have it shipped to him in Russia, my point was more that some of the most common things we take for granted, most other countries people wish for.

 

My brother in law's cousin from Italy, came to the USA, and wanted to shoot a Beretta M9. He served in the Italian Military, and never once fired a pistol, or, for that matter, any type of long arm. He trained with them but was never issued ammo, or allowed to actually fire a weapon.

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SP, ask him if he could buy a modded, short barrel, Saiga, from the USA, and have it shipped to him in Russia, my point was more that some of the most common things we take for granted, most other countries people wish for.

 

My brother in law's cousin from Italy, came to the USA, and wanted to shoot a Beretta M9. He served in the Italian Military, and never once fired a pistol, or, for that matter, any type of long arm. He trained with them but was never issued ammo, or allowed to actually fire a weapon.

 

 

No, not from US...made there for him....

 

True...my friends in Brazil have never touched a gun (in Brazil that is......they got pics while in the US with mine)

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@ Frick

 

 

Dude, you're such a paranoid individual. Take your TIN HAT and wear it proud.You simply can't stand the idea of a different opinion. All the while you've got no inside information, no reputable source, nothing to back up your persistent claims. You are truely a sad mess of an internet douche bag. Please explain to me again why you don't have enough faith in what you say to bet your Saiga 12 on it. :lolol:

Edited by Bridis
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lol Frick, you really are working yourself into a lather here.

 

The notion that you disagree with our business model is somehow comforting to me. Since you hate all the "evil" features, though, I do wonder what it is about the S12 that you like.

 

In any case, the idea that TROMIX is damaging the Saiga 12 market in the US is pretty ironic considering that we created that market. You would have probably never heard of this weapon if it weren't for Tonys work with the platform.

 

Percoset, I'm not "worried" about the continued viability of this platform, but maybe your opinion is more valid than mine.

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And BTW, my reference to "armchair gunsmiths" was NOT to disrespect those of you that build your own guns. Far from it, in fact we have supported the DIY sector for years with parts and advice. I have answered thousands of questions here over the years and even helped people fix the botched conversion done by our "competition".

 

Actually several of the more famous builders in the S12 biz got their start by converting guns using TROMIX parts. Some of them I'm proud of, others less so LOL

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lol Frick, you really are working yourself into a lather here.

 

The notion that you disagree with our business model is somehow comforting to me. Since you hate all the "evil" features, though, I do wonder what it is about the S12 that you like.

 

In any case, the idea that TROMIX is damaging the Saiga 12 market in the US is pretty ironic considering that we created that market. You would have probably never heard of this weapon if it weren't for Tonys work with the platform.

 

Percoset, I'm not "worried" about the continued viability of this platform, but maybe your opinion is more valid than mine.

 

Tromix +.....The Deadliest Warrior

 

http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?n=21&ei=utf-8&fr=yfp-t-892&fr2=tab-web&tnr=21&p=the+deadliest+warrior+spetsnaz&vid=494375142663&dt=1242025200&l=350&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts4.mm.bing.net%2Fvideos%2Fthumbnail.aspx%3Fq%3D494375142663%26id%3D0d1954f912b90ce75eaf9cbe9f43addd%26bid%3DsVkdF%252bceXBCI%252fA%26bn%3DThumb%26url%3Dhttp%253a%252f%252fwww.spike.com%252fvideo%252f3169075%253fcmpnid%253d790%2526pt%253dsr%2526refsite%253d7118&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spike.com%2Fvideo%2F3169075%3Fcmpnid%3D790%26pt%3Dsr%26refsite%3D7118&tit=Green+Beret+vs.+Spetsnaz+-+Act+V&sigr=12055kt7u&newfp=1

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You take it the wrong way, Bob Ash from Tromix, I LOVE the evil features, I just don't think the time is right now, or ever has been to transform a "Sporting" weapon, into an "evil" weapons platform that was, and is one "Decision" away from being either stopped from importation, and/or regulated if it goes the way of the USAS 12, or more secondarily, the Street Sweeper, Striker 12 type of shotguns.

 

I guess it was living through that whole 10 plus year, "Assault Weapons" ban thingy, as well as the prior USAS/Striker bans, that make be a bit cautious about where the future of our collective gun rights was, and is heading, given the wrong actions by a few individuals, coupled with the right political anti gun climate.

 

I mean, Bob Ash from Tromix, you probably realize that if it wasn't for the Republican minority, managing to get a "Sunset" provision put into the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, the whole Saiga market that exists now, NEVER would have come to pass? Take away the high caps, and nothing else, and you seriously crimp the whole value of the Saiga system.

 

All that being said, short of a permanent conversion, I have jumped in and embraced whats happened in the Saiga market, mags, drums, accessories etc, hell YEAH, I love the stuff, and own as much as I can afford,(with the exception of the "BLING"), probably too much in fact, but, it hasn't been with a bit of guilt on my own part, because as the guns themselves, and the evil accessories, have become more affordable, and available, its opened up the whole shebang to alot more people, hence, the bad attention it now has from the ATF.

 

The only good thing about this, after the study, and the ATF's actions, or non actions, especially under a terribly anti gun presidency, is, that we all will have a damn good idea about where the future of mag fed, semi auto shotgun systems, is going to go. If the Saiga falls, we will probably never see a replacement, until its manufactured domestically, and then, only if its not neutered into a non pistol grip, locap version that I am sure the ATF wants to give us.

 

AS per Tromix opening my eyes up to the Saiga, not the case, having been a gun fiend from the time I was a small child, the Saiga had caught my eye early on, I want to say the Shotgun News, but it may have been a trade circular for the FFL's, I'm not sure which, and I actually saw the first "Live" one at a Dunhams, of all places.

 

And, thank you for being good capitalists, making money and paying taxes, no matter what turns out, if somebody didn't push the envelope, we wouldn't get anywhere, of course, we may lose it all, but, it has been, and still is fun, I just hope we get to have some more.

 

IF it doesn't turn out that way, I'll be the first to say "I told you so", and if it does turn out for the good, I will gladly admit I was wrong, as I have said early on.

 

Bridis you quote:

 

Off to watch Sons of Guns. :super:

 

You are a fucking tool, do you really think if you suck enough industry dick they are going to send you gift cards or what??

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Frick i guess you just don't get it. With the advent of the Heller decision they (SCOTUS) that the people have the right to own and bear arms, including modern advancements that are the same as a military weapon, ie door breachers, hi cap mags etc. Also that we have the right to these weapons for defense. As far as the commerce clause goes; the arguement can be made that the Saiga 12 should be allow to be imported because no in country manufacturer has a comparable product on the market, thus making it a unique firearm and desirable for US citizens to have.

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The question is, who wants to be a test case? Yes, 2A says we have the Right (remember--2A recognizes, not grants). I, for one, don't have the millions of dollars to squander to force these oxygen-thieves to say Uncle. It looks like a Grass Roots Movement for 2A might be called for. Unfortunately, I''m not eloquent enough to get the ball rolling. It's been said the best defense is a good offense. Instead of chewing each other up with our egos at risk, how about keeping in mind oiur very freedoms may be at risk? For instance, the counterattack on the study was an interesting start.

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I think most of those on here forget that this study, does not go to congress for a vote. It goes directly to the AG for his signature. So with a stroke of a pen our 2A rights are severely limited. And if this gets off, then the next step is for any firearm that is not for sporting or hunting purposes to be banned. Yes, the supreme court ruled in our favor, but how many years will it take to hear another case once the oxygen thieves have crippled our 2A and our rights. You seem to forget that during a national emergency the president, under powers granted to him under the patriot act, like a dictator, can instill martial law. Look what FEMA did during Katrina, they cut phone lines, jammed communications, and even went to areas not badly hit to confiscate the citizens firearms. Which have yet to be returned. Either way, this study, the ATF's attention to the Saiga and others, is not a good thing. We are on a slippery slope, in a global anti gun environment.

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And as for Tromix, I am sure that you can find an overseas market for scary looking door breachers, and 4" barreled, fully automatic Saigas, much like the current owner of the Striker12 has done. Or, wait, no he hasn't...

 

Strawman argument. We don't "own" the Saiga. We just legally customize them. SO let me break this down: your argument is that the Hilton Walker screwed himself by bringing the Striker to the US? I guess it didn't work out as well as he hoped, since he was trying to market it as a military weapon; the same use it has enjoyed with the Isralis and South Africans since its design.

 

So, Bob Ash of TROMIX, the number one name in saiga conversions, other than betting the platform has a future, you wanna put forth the behind the scene info, to us tin hatters, and ingorant opinioners, as to why, WE should be betting on the positive future of the Saiga right now? I mean, it would be a good investment in future business to assure us as to why we should pack up our Saigas and ship them to TROMIX for a permanent conversion, wouldn't it?

 

Sure, no problem.

 

I deal personally with BATF and the importers and no one thinks the Saiga is going anywhere. Orders are placed and paid for well through next year and the future is so bright I gotta wear shades.

 

 

...do I think Tromix has been selling products that on their face value endanger the Saiga Platform, YES, I do. Frankly, I seen no real need for a twelve pound, eight sided, spiked door breaching, flash supressing, muzzle breaking, abdomination, of the type they sell.

 

 

...You take it the wrong way...I LOVE the evil features...

 

See, I get your whole argument about a non-permanent conversion, but this is classic contradictory trolling. It's cool, I know you love to argue about stuff.

 

 

SO let me summarize your argument: You want people to stop accessorizing their guns with scary parts so we can be assured our long-term right to keep a neutered version.

 

Is that about it or did I miss some points?

 

Signed,

"Bob Ash of TROMIX"

Edited by BobAsh
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SO let me summarize your argument: You want people to stop accessorizing their guns with scary parts so we can be assured our long-term right to keep a neutered version.

 

Is that about it or did I miss some points?

 

Signed,

"Bob Ash of TROMIX"

 

I've always called that the "Arbeit Macht Frei" logic, because that is where it leads. The lighter version is akin to being afraid to exercise one's rights 'given' to them by Jim Crow laws, because they are afraid even the Jim Crow rights will be taken away. Strategically this is a bad thing to do because one is letting the Statists define the battle field and the rules.

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See, I get your whole argument about a non-permanent conversion, but this is classic contradictory trolling. It's cool, I know you love to argue about stuff.

 

 

SO let me summarize your argument: You want people to stop accessorizing their guns with scary parts so we can be assured our long-term right to keep a neutered version.

 

Is that about it or did I miss some points?

 

Signed,

"Bob Ash of TROMIX"

Bob...

 

Please stop talking to Frick...

 

He won't be responding.

 

Sorry for any confusion this may have caused...

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'Those who give up liberty for security will get and deserve neither"Ben Franklin.what i don't understand is why doesn't some gun owning lawyer stand up in court to fight these commies.there must be a lawyer somewhere that owns a sagia.like someone stated here a non lawyer citizen will go broke fighting these commies in court,where as a lawyer can do it on his own time for free.

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'Those who give up liberty for security will get and deserve neither"Ben Franklin.what i don't understand is why doesn't some gun owning lawyer stand up in court to fight these commies.there must be a lawyer somewhere that owns a sagia.like someone stated here a non lawyer citizen will go broke fighting these commies in court,where as a lawyer can do it on his own time for free.

 

What he said.:super:

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Well, This thread has at least kept me entertained while waiting at the doctors'office to get a physical. It was either this or steal tongue depressors from that jar over there. Thanks guys.

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This is a bit off topic, and some may say splitting hairs however...considering all things shotgun related...does anyone know a valid purpose sporting or otherwise for the Taurus Raging Judge XXVIII? ATF approved 28 gauge six shot revolver!

 

wobble trap. but is a revolver not a shotgun

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This is a bit off topic, and some may say splitting hairs however...considering all things shotgun related...does anyone know a valid purpose sporting or otherwise for the Taurus Raging Judge XXVIII? ATF approved 28 gauge six shot revolver!

 

wobble trap. but is a revolver not a shotgun

 

doesn't matter anyways, 28ga is a larger bore diameter then the .500" that the ATF lets us have in a handgun. However, unearthlyevil, a valid purpose sporting or otherwise is not a prerequisite listed in the 2AD that I have read.

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My apologies for this off-topic post but...

 

Does anyone know what spiral drum Barnett3006 has in his avatar?

 

MGI Military. I'm not a fan as they throw the weight off...the gun wants to turn to that side.

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