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Doug Hartley

ATF Shotgun Study - Here it is!

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No tin foil hat here.....

 

But....

 

Reading that report just made me sick. The ground work is being laid. Everything that a Saiga owner deems to be "cool" or "evil", I feel will eventually be in jeapordy.

 

I dont know much about the current law or previous bans, but with everything mentioned from light,rails,grips,drums, and so on......someone in the govt does not want us to have.

 

The most important question is "how do we stop it before it starts"? How do we stop this from eventually becoming law?

 

Half tempted to sell mine :cryss:

 

They won't be coming to take anything away, just not importing is all. Like I said there are work arounds with repair kits. The only way to stop is tell your congressman how you will vote if he or she lets this become law. We can still get AK 30 round mags, We can still get US built AKs, just nothing with a Ruuskie reciever or barrel.

 

 

I'll throw this in for hope from page 18

 

The fact that a firearm or feature was initially designed for military or tactical applications,

including offensive or defensive combat, may indicate that it is not a sporting firearm. This may

be overcome by evidence that the particular shotgun or feature has been so regularly used by

sportsmen that it is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to

sporting purposes. Such evidence may include marketing, industry literature and consumer

articles, scholarly and historical publications, military publications, the existence of State and

local statutes and regulations limiting use of the shotgun or features for sporting purposes, and

the overall use and the popularity of such features or designs for sporting purposes according to

hunting guides, shooting magazines, State game commissioners, organized competitive hunting

and shooting groups, law enforcement agencies or organizations, industry members and trade

associations, and interest and information groups.

 

 

So if the importers and magazines do enough stories and marketing about how great this sporting shotgun is as imported, then we can have some hope.

me.... I'm holding my breathe

 

Tactical lights, folding stocks, high cap mags and drums......Hunting......trap shooting.....3 gun?

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No tin foil hat here.....

 

But....

 

Reading that report just made me sick. The ground work is being laid. Everything that a Saiga owner deems to be "cool" or "evil", I feel will eventually be in jeapordy.

 

I dont know much about the current law or previous bans, but with everything mentioned from light,rails,grips,drums, and so on......someone in the govt does not want us to have.

 

The most important question is "how do we stop it before it starts"? How do we stop this from eventually becoming law?

 

Half tempted to sell mine :cryss:

 

They won't be coming to take anything away, just not importing is all. Like I said there are work arounds with repair kits. The only way to stop is tell your congressman how you will vote if he or she lets this become law. We can still get AK 30 round mags, We can still get US built AKs, just nothing with a Ruuskie reciever or barrel.

 

 

I'll throw this in for hope from page 18

 

The fact that a firearm or feature was initially designed for military or tactical applications,

including offensive or defensive combat, may indicate that it is not a sporting firearm. This may

be overcome by evidence that the particular shotgun or feature has been so regularly used by

sportsmen that it is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to

sporting purposes. Such evidence may include marketing, industry literature and consumer

articles, scholarly and historical publications, military publications, the existence of State and

local statutes and regulations limiting use of the shotgun or features for sporting purposes, and

the overall use and the popularity of such features or designs for sporting purposes according to

hunting guides, shooting magazines, State game commissioners, organized competitive hunting

and shooting groups, law enforcement agencies or organizations, industry members and trade

associations, and interest and information groups.

 

 

So if the importers and magazines do enough stories and marketing about how great this sporting shotgun is as imported, then we can have some hope.

me.... I'm holding my breathe

 

Tactical lights, folding stocks, high cap mags and drums......Hunting......trap shooting.....3 gun?

 

Go back to my long ass reply, 3 gun isn't "CURRENTLY" a sport nor will they consider it, so it has to be either hunting, trap, or skeet and advertised and talked about as such

Edited by utahhandyman

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No tin foil hat here.....

 

But....

 

Reading that report just made me sick. The ground work is being laid. Everything that a Saiga owner deems to be "cool" or "evil", I feel will eventually be in jeapordy.

 

I dont know much about the current law or previous bans, but with everything mentioned from light,rails,grips,drums, and so on......someone in the govt does not want us to have.

 

The most important question is "how do we stop it before it starts"? How do we stop this from eventually becoming law?

 

Half tempted to sell mine :cryss:

 

They won't be coming to take anything away, just not importing is all. Like I said there are work arounds with repair kits. The only way to stop is tell your congressman how you will vote if he or she lets this become law. We can still get AK 30 round mags, We can still get US built AKs, just nothing with a Ruuskie reciever or barrel.

 

 

I'll throw this in for hope from page 18

 

The fact that a firearm or feature was initially designed for military or tactical applications,

including offensive or defensive combat, may indicate that it is not a sporting firearm. This may

be overcome by evidence that the particular shotgun or feature has been so regularly used by

sportsmen that it is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to

sporting purposes. Such evidence may include marketing, industry literature and consumer

articles, scholarly and historical publications, military publications, the existence of State and

local statutes and regulations limiting use of the shotgun or features for sporting purposes, and

the overall use and the popularity of such features or designs for sporting purposes according to

hunting guides, shooting magazines, State game commissioners, organized competitive hunting

and shooting groups, law enforcement agencies or organizations, industry members and trade

associations, and interest and information groups.

 

 

So if the importers and magazines do enough stories and marketing about how great this sporting shotgun is as imported, then we can have some hope.

me.... I'm holding my breathe

 

Tactical lights, folding stocks, high cap mags and drums......Hunting......trap shooting.....3 gun?

 

Go back to my long ass reply, 3 gun isn't "CURRENTLY" a sport nor will they consider it, so it has to be either hunting, trap, or skeet and advertised and talked about as such

 

That is what I meant....eventually everyone with those will be screwed

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Read the study it don't sound good. Their pictures are insult to injury.

I read an old post that the writers were concerned about high capacity mags and drums that would get the S-12 banned maybe they were right.

I really enjoy mine and I do use them for sporting purposes / skeet/ trap. I don't use them for LE or Military purposes because I am a %ucking civilian.

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This is probably the reason Izhmash wouldn't import the 8-rnd mags. I wonder if the MAN realizes he had just given us justification AND an alibi not to identify an intruder in the dark in an HD situation, ie, no flashlight on the side or under the forearm, as having it on top would hinder the proper use of sights. These may be shotties, but they still should be properly aimed in typical HD ranges (less than10 yds). As far as VFG's are concerned, it's not sporting to leave a mortally wounded animal to suffer any longer than necessary; therefore, the use of VFG's should be encouraged as they enhance controllability. These are just a couple of ideas that come to mind. I'm sure the more eloquent members could have some SERIOUS fun and, with the right support (NRA,SAF, USPSA, USSF,et al.,), this could be a non-issue. I don't remember which Founding Father said it: "We had better hang together, or we shall all hang separately." HOWEVER, that is not to say we should be resorting to the use of arms at this point. Something to keep in mind--if we have a civil war at this point, we all lose. For a long time, others have wanted 'a piece of this pie' and we shouldn't give it to them easily.

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Alright guys.....calm down. I don't think it's as bad as we're trying to make it. Read it carefully. These 10 things are the list they are going to use to decide if a SG is importable:

 

(1) Folding, telescoping, or collapsible stocks;

(2) bayonet lugs;

(3) flash suppressors;

(4) magazines over 5 rounds, or a drum magazine;

(5) grenade-launcher mounts;

(6) integrated rail systems (other than on top of the receiver or barrel);

(7) light enhancing devices;

(8) excessive weight (greater than 10 pounds for 12 gauge or smaller);

(9) excessive bulk (greater than 3 inches in width and/or greater than 4 inches in depth);

(10) forward pistol grips or other protruding parts designed or used for gripping the

shotgun with the shooter's extended hand.

 

Does the Saiga have these features as imported?

1)NO

2)NO

3)NO

4)NO

5)NO

5)NO

7)NO

7)NO

9)NO

10)NO

 

AS IMPORTED. Might they come back and F us again later? As likely as not, but a careful reading of THIS DOCUMENT shows no immediate change. The importers have done a very good job of keeping within the letter of the law. The part about being capable of accepting LCAFDs was specific to rifles, and miraculously did not make it on the SG list. I was also shockingly stunned to see the bit about detachable box mags being equal in the eyes of the ATF to tube mags. I honestly thought that is where they would kill the S-12.

 

I am a little worried about why MDArms went to temp. out of stock on the MD-20. I hope the black helicopter didn't come get him. Mike.....where you at?!

 

this is how they get around the list

 

The Attorney General and ATF are not limited to these factors and therefore may consider any

other factor determined to be relevant in making this determination. The working group

recognizes the difficulty in applying this standard but acknowledges that Congress specifically

intended that the Attorney General perform this function. Therefore, the working group

recommends that sporting determinations for shotguns not specifically addressed by this study be

reviewed by a panel pursuant to ATF orders, policies and procedures, as appropriate.

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this is how they get around the list

 

The Attorney General and ATF are not limited to these factors and therefore may consider any

other factor determined to be relevant in making this determination. The working group

recognizes the difficulty in applying this standard but acknowledges that Congress specifically

intended that the Attorney General perform this function. Therefore, the working group

recommends that sporting determinations for shotguns not specifically addressed by this study be

reviewed by a panel pursuant to ATF orders, policies and procedures, as appropriate.

 

I agree that they left themselves a giant gaping hole to drive their ban-laden truck through. Actually, the hole is so big that it has greater mass than all of the surrounding non-hole matter. It's a black hole. And this basically gives Eric Holder the reins to do whatever he wants.

 

BUT, don't you think that if they were going to go to the trouble to do a "study" and issue a report, that they would've just written the rules to catch the Saiga? I mean, if that was actually the goal. I'm about 99% certain that the ATF, Holder, and Obama are not only on the same team, but hanging out in the sauna together after practice. It would have been politically a lot less bloody to make the ATF the bad guy (because America already hates them) instead of the administration.

 

Of course, Saiga owner's are probably not a significant enough voting block for them to care about pissing us off.

 

I'm not trying to be Pollyanna about this, but I am trying to stay somewhat optimistic. And you're quite free to disagree with me. We still have that right, more or less.

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what if this was reported to a large news station. im sure it would attract much controversy and public opinion. but i think the public opinion could go either way, depending on how CNN and MSNBC would react. and i think their reactions to this are on the extremely predictable side of things. they would make it out as a mass murder weapon and lead the public to believe it is a menace too all of society and somones about to kill us all with them. i hate liberal newstations.mad.gif

Edited by yooper14

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Hey Mods..... start a new section on hunting with pictures and stories bout how we have been using this sporting shotgun for years and we can send the MAN a link

 

 

AGREED 100%. Let's show some pictures of game we've taken with the S-12. Hell, even birds. I know people have the 2 rounders for a reason!

 

Another thing. HOW ABOUT TAKE YOUR DRUM/MAG DUMP & BUMPFIRE VIDEOS DOWN OFF YOUTUBE!

 

Replace them with videos of clay shooting and 3 gun... whatever. We need to show the sporting side of our shotguns.

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No New Study was needed....The purpose is simple. ATF is very versed in the Saiga 12. The study is a way of justifying an importation ban. The only reason for a new study is to try to make it look like they took a logical look at things. Get them while you can!

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Hey Mods..... start a new section on hunting with pictures and stories bout how we have been using this sporting shotgun for years and we can send the MAN a link

 

 

AGREED 100%. Let's show some pictures of game we've taken with the S-12. Hell, even birds. I know people have the 2 rounders for a reason!

 

Another thing. HOW ABOUT TAKE YOUR DRUM/MAG DUMP & BUMPFIRE VIDEOS DOWN OFF YOUTUBE!

 

Replace them with videos of clay shooting and 3 gun... whatever. We need to show the sporting side of our shotguns.

 

The ATF paper had absolutely nothing to do with fact and everything to do with propaganda. It could be the single-most popular skeet and trap gun in the USA and the ATF's paper would have been exactly the same. If there weren't any videos of it on youtube now, they'd make their own.

 

Their portrayal of State regs was another complete piece of garbage. They showed Texas as having a 3 round mag limit... which is true for about 3 species, I think. They claimed hunting at night was generally prohibited which is an outright falsehood.

 

Nor does the AG really have an opinion on the gun other than what his boss tells him his opinion is. I highly doubt the AG knows or cares anything about guns one way or the other.

 

O wants some fiat gun control to shore up the base. So he asks the ATF to come up with something he can ban without going through the legislative process. ATF hands him this. Next call goes from Obama to the AG telling him that he's about to make a "sporting suitability" ruling on certain shotguns. Big O has another political victory to parade in front of suzie soccer mom.

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So can any one tell me why the boys over in Russia can't just buy Tapco FCG and US made stocks and pistol grips then all the Saiga would be US made?

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No tin foil hat here.....

 

But....

 

Reading that report just made me sick. The ground work is being laid. Everything that a Saiga owner deems to be "cool" or "evil", I feel will eventually be in jeapordy.

 

I dont know much about the current law or previous bans, but with everything mentioned from light,rails,grips,drums, and so on......someone in the govt does not want us to have.

 

The most important question is "how do we stop it before it starts"? How do we stop this from eventually becoming law?

 

Half tempted to sell mine :cryss:

 

They won't be coming to take anything away, just not importing is all. Like I said there are work arounds with repair kits. The only way to stop is tell your congressman how you will vote if he or she lets this become law. We can still get AK 30 round mags, We can still get US built AKs, just nothing with a Ruuskie reciever or barrel.

 

 

I'll throw this in for hope from page 18

 

The fact that a firearm or feature was initially designed for military or tactical applications,

including offensive or defensive combat, may indicate that it is not a sporting firearm. This may

be overcome by evidence that the particular shotgun or feature has been so regularly used by

sportsmen that it is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to

sporting purposes. Such evidence may include marketing, industry literature and consumer

articles, scholarly and historical publications, military publications, the existence of State and

local statutes and regulations limiting use of the shotgun or features for sporting purposes, and

the overall use and the popularity of such features or designs for sporting purposes according to

hunting guides, shooting magazines, State game commissioners, organized competitive hunting

and shooting groups, law enforcement agencies or organizations, industry members and trade

associations, and interest and information groups.

 

 

So if the importers and magazines do enough stories and marketing about how great this sporting shotgun is as imported, then we can have some hope.

me.... I'm holding my breathe

 

Tactical lights, folding stocks, high cap mags and drums......Hunting......trap shooting.....3 gun?

 

Go back to my long ass reply, 3 gun isn't "CURRENTLY" a sport nor will they consider it, so it has to be either hunting, trap, or skeet and advertised and talked about as such

 

 

I will make sure I put some videos up on Youtube of 5-shot, 2 minute-long mag dumps so people will see how sporting my Saigas are.

 

I don't see the sky falling, despite some comments here.

 

What I do plan on doing is talking with my state senators regarding the amount of latitude granted to the BATFE in enforcing the law (NFA, GCA, etc), as well as interpreting it. As far as I know, the ATF is the ONLY federal agency that is able to decide that something that was previously legal is now illegal. What do I mean by that? I spent 4 years working in immigration. On the enforcement side of things, we did not have the ability to decide that certain classes of aliens (foreigners) were suddenly in the United States illegally. We had to go by what Congress had given us, and by specific statutory requirements. Just because certain types of visa holders from certain countries tended to overstay their visas, did not mean we could declare that visas could no longer be issued to people from that country.

 

The ATF can issue barrel bans, decide a gun is not sporting, and has freedom to do so with little oversight, which bothers me considerably. I am all about enforcing the law. I believe that Americans must live by the laws, because it is one of the things that sets us apart from so many other countries. I just don't believe in an executive agency legislating law, which is often what happens at the ATF, which completely circumvents the concept of separation of powers and checks and balances. DEA can't suddenly declare that Flinstones Vitamins are a controlled substance, even if they start shaping them like swastikas or skulls and cross bones, and the ATF should not have the authority to declare a gun non-sporting because it's "black, too bulky, accepts a magazine, or has a rail somewhere other than on top of it."

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If the Saiga 12 is banned from importation, anyone think this decision would affect ATF approval of Saiga 12 SBS conversions if they're considering them to be evil now? :unsure:

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If the Saiga 12 is banned from importation, anyone think this decision would affect ATF approval of Saiga 12 SBS conversions if they're considering them to be evil now? :unsure:

 

I'd say no. I bought my AKS-74U kit and SBR'd it after the 2005 barrel ban without any issues. Anything that makes it in before the "supposed" ban is likely to be grandfathered in. NFA stuff isn't really considered "sporting" anyway.

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I'll just add that the Heller decision said the the 2A is a right and it has nothing to do with sporting purposes. In my mind there is a basis for a suit if they try to ban any modifications like rails , fore grips, lights , etc.

 

They currently don't have any of the evil features, so what would be the basis for import ban or DD?

 

They would have to ban the modification to add them, but that would make them have to use the "sporting" yardstick which could be challenged based on Heller.

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My favorite part is about the large or bulky shotguns b/c they're made more rugged for Military use....

 

So, let me get this...

 

The ATF is telling me I can only buy chincy crap and I can't buy a sturdy, rugged sporting shotgun? Hell, my competition gun sees more rounds in 6 months than any military shotgun will see in its entire service life. It's also imported from Germany and weighs more than 10 lbs. Our government agencies really have too much goddamn time.

 

 

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I specifically bought my saiga to carry deer hunting. I shot a deer this fall with mine. I was also thinking about using it for turkey hunting this spring. I haven't converted mine yet but I have always wanted a pistol gripped shotgun for turkey hunting. My hand gets tired of holding a nonpistol gripped shotgun waiting on a turkey to come in.

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Alright, Arsenal or RAA or whoever is importing these things, it's time to bring them in with the pistol grip!!!! Since that's now "sporting"!!!

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It's incredible how much the thread has morphed from the start until now.....

It's crazy to hear people saying "i think i'm going to be selling mine"," Uhhh!!! no problem i sold mine long time ago",Cmon man!!!!do you really think this government people won't come and check?

I mean we can deliberate and think of hundreds of scenarios of what can ,may or will happen but the truth is that we're not putting attention to what's really important here.

They will do whatever they deem necessary to uphold what they think is the best for their interests.

On the other hand,if we redirect our attention and our efforts to things that will help us keep not only our rights the way they should be and our weapons the way we please we stand a better chance of getting away with certain things.Let me explain myself.

They say that Practical Shooting is not a sport .....then what the hell is it? I though a sport is something in wich one or more individuals compete to see who's best or who can master it .It's supposed to be fun ,competition,gathering and guidelines on it.

If IPSC is not a sport then what is fishing or bowling ?

If they recognize such sports as what they really are then we're good,plain and simple.

Do you imagine yourself shooting 3Gun with a bolt action and a single shot shotgun?????This is bullshit.We need to take those cannons and set them directly to where they can be more effective.

I live in a Commonwealth wich means i am within both federal and domestic laws.Here you have to register each and evey firearm you own or you won't have a chance to own one,they have prostituted the 2nd Amendment.For them being able to have a permit for concealed carry is a privilege not a right .....So much for the land of the free.

What i'm trying to say is that if we can all do what they do and look for that small opening we can work around their bylaws to keep our toys.....

USPSA and IPSC are tools we can use,we can make noise ,make them recognize them as what they really are; another SPORT.

By the way i won't sell mine,on the contrary i will buy another one and a few more mags and drums,they eventually will cost a fortune here......

Edited by rockopr
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It's incredible how much the thread has morphed from the start until now.....

It's crazy to hear people saying "i think i'm going to be selling mine"," Uhhh!!! no problem i sold mine long time ago",Cmon man!!!!do you really think this government people won't come and check?

I mean we can deliberate and think of hundreds of scenarios of what can ,may or will happen but the truth is that we're not putting attention to what's really important here.

They will do whatever they deem necessary to uphold what they think is the best for their interests.

On the other hand,if we redirect our attention and our efforts to things that will help us keep not only our rights the way they should be and our weapons the way we please we stand a better chance of getting away with certain things.Let me explain myself.

They say that Practical Shooting is not a sport .....then what the hell is it? I though a sport is something in wich one or more individuals compete to see who's best or who can master it .It's supposed to be fun ,competition,gathering and guidelines on it.

If IPSC is not a sport then what is fishing or bowling ?

If they recognize such sports as what they really are then we're good,plain and simple.

Do you imagine yourself shooting 3Gun with a bolt action and a single shot shotgun?????This is bullshit.We need to take those cannons and set them directly to where they can be more effective.

I live in a Commonwealth wich means i am within both federal and domestic laws.Here you have to register each and evey firearm you own or you won't have a chance to own one,they have prostituted the 2nd Amendment.For them being able to have a permit for concealed carry is a privilege not a right .....So much for the land of the free.

What i'm trying to say is that if we can all do what they do and look for that small opening we can work around their bylaws to keep our toys.....

USPSA and IPSC are tools we can use,we can make noise ,make them recognize them as what they really are; another SPORT.

By the way i won't sell mine,on the contrary i will buy another one and a few more mags and drums,they eventually will cost a fortune here......

 

Realize some people are actually thinking of selling them, not just saying it, thinking the government can be fooled

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At the end of World War II, the German people were held responsible for the acts of the Nazi Party. The Americans told them their cowardice is why the Nazis were able to stay in power for so long. The people of Germany were expected to rise up against their government and stop them. They had been disarmed already and their fear of death stopped them from doing so. Therefore, the world labeled them as pathetic cowards, and they were all held responsible. How is this different? The Government is making up law as they go, obviously trying to disarm and using foolish excuses that everyone knows don't make sense, taking all America for fools. They do things that no one approves of, but who does something about it? "That crazy man" on the ten o'clock news......good thing they killed him when they did, before he did more damage.

What evidence do any of you have that tells you they will stop taking from you? They will not stop, ever. Unless you all come together and put your boots on their necks, they will take and take and take until you have nothing left to take. Then they will celebrate....with your money, and the only one to blame is the one in the mirror. ATF is arrogant but not fools, every word, every verse in the study is there for reason. If you keep watching this hand, they will slap you senseless wit de other.

Edited by Sasha
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I'll just add that the Heller decision said the the 2A is a right and it has nothing to do with sporting purposes. In my mind there is a basis for a suit if they try to ban any modifications like rails , fore grips, lights , etc.

 

They currently don't have any of the evil features, so what would be the basis for import ban or DD?

 

They would have to ban the modification to add them, but that would make them have to use the "sporting" yardstick which could be challenged based on Heller.

 

The DD designation comes from a redefinition of "suitable for sporting purposes" by the Attorney General. They don't have to ban those modifications at all. If the AG says any saiga with a drum, pg, rail, or folding stock is unsuitable for sporting purposes, then all saiga-12s currently equipped with any of those features will automatically become a DD.

 

There are only TWO criteria for a DD in the NFA definition. Bore diameter greater than .500" and a finding of unsuitability for sporting purposes by the AG.

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