ATF Shotgun Study - Here it is!

[Stansplace 414]

They don't call anyone if you have a CCW permit.

 

Wait...what? Since when? In my state a CCW permit does not allow a bypass of the NICS check. I thought this was the case everywhere.

 

Nope. In NC, if you have a CHL, you can walk in, sign a few papers and walk out with any handgun, rifle, or shotgun in about 10 minutes. No additional background check is done since the sheriff's office physically confiscates your CHL should you become ineligible to own/purchase a firearm. Thus, if you can produce a CHL, you are showing that LE has nothing on you preventing the purchase of a firearm.

 

This is allowed under the NCIS guidelines.

 

Correct in all respects. In other words the only thing to show you have purchased ANY weapon is the 4473 which remains with the FFL. Once FFL goes out of business or changes hands they are only required to maintain records for 7 or 10 years (not sure which).

 

Or they have a tragic fire when it counts..........

[Vermiform 26]

They don't call anyone if you have a CCW permit.

 

Wait...what? Since when? In my state a CCW permit does not allow a bypass of the NICS check. I thought this was the case everywhere.

 

Nope. In NC, if you have a CHL, you can walk in, sign a few papers and walk out with any handgun, rifle, or shotgun in about 10 minutes. No additional background check is done since the sheriff's office physically confiscates your CHL should you become ineligible to own/purchase a firearm. Thus, if you can produce a CHL, you are showing that LE has nothing on you preventing the purchase of a firearm.

 

This is allowed under the NCIS guidelines.

 

Learn something new every day. TY

[dl-1098 3]

Riddle me this BATman...

How is it that Hunting is considered a sport and not a pastime???

[eva-u 2]

In Wa they call it in. CCW or not.

They don't call anyone if you have a CCW permit.

 

Wait...what? Since when? In my state a CCW permit does not allow a bypass of the NICS check. I thought this was the case everywhere.

 

Nope. In NC, if you have a CHL, you can walk in, sign a few papers and walk out with any handgun, rifle, or shotgun in about 10 minutes. No additional background check is done since the sheriff's office physically confiscates your CHL should you become ineligible to own/purchase a firearm. Thus, if you can produce a CHL, you are showing that LE has nothing on you preventing the purchase of a firearm.

 

This is allowed under the NCIS guidelines.

[Doug Hartley 526]

The ATF is taking comments on this study from Jan. 31 to May 1st at shotgunstudy@atf.gov. Everyone should send them some well reasoned comments for them to mull over. Please make sure that you have some type of valid point to make and not just rant, that won't help. The more input they get from us the better.

 

Doug

[corbin 621]

For the record.....

 

I'll buy anyone's S12 for $400 too. Seriously.

[csspecs 1,987]

I like that they can say that front pistol grips have no sporting use.. But never even think to include hunters with hand injures in the study. That is a massive oversight. And likely would count as discriminating against people with disabilities. Obviously any person with a disablilty should be able to buy a firearm to allow them to hunt or enjoy sport shooting to the full, and should be able to buy such a firearm from any store.

 

Something they should think of for sure.

[spenceman 5]

Since plinking isn't a shooting sport because it would neuter the law, and the definition of a shooting sport can change, I say we do our damnedest to neuter the law. Someone with some technical know how could set up the United States Plinking Association. Membership could be free or $1, a set of rules could be developed, and upon becoming a member (here's the technical part) a computer generated membership card and unique member number could be created then printed out at home. If done right it could have a million plus members within in a year or two and they would likely have to recognize plinking as a sport with so many members. Good chance for someone to make some money I say (if you get rich off my idea please throw me a bone now and then ). Sadly they have established a crap double standard by stating that despite "non-sporting" weapons being used in sporting events doesn't automatically make them sporting. However a sporting weapon can be used in non-sporting purposes and it's just fine.

 

Anyway, this study is nothing to fear in and of itself, and as stated before it provides RAA a leg to stand on to have Saigas imported with the FCG and pistol grip where they were intended to be, and with fewer modifications to be done before the import the prices could actually come down. On the other hand the ATF will have to address modifications from the sporting purpose which could mean some unpleasant changes to 922r (at least bureaucracies move slow).

[SaigaKen 338]

Since plinking isn't a shooting sport because it would neuter the law, and the definition of a shooting sport can change, I say we do our damnedest to neuter the law. Someone with some technical know how could set up the United States Plinking Association. Membership could be free or $1, a set of rules could be developed, and upon becoming a member (here's the technical part) a computer generated membership card and unique member number could be created then printed out at home. If done right it could have a million plus members within in a year or two and they would likely have to recognize plinking as a sport with so many members. Good chance for someone to make some money I say (if you get rich off my idea please throw me a bone now and then ). Sadly they have established a crap double standard by stating that despite "non-sporting" weapons being used in sporting events doesn't automatically make them sporting. However a sporting weapon can be used in non-sporting purposes and it's just fine.

 

Anyway, this study is nothing to fear in and of itself, and as stated before it provides RAA a leg to stand on to have Saigas imported with the FCG and pistol grip where they were intended to be, and with fewer modifications to be done before the import the prices could actually come down. On the other hand the ATF will have to address modifications from the sporting purpose which could mean some unpleasant changes to 922r (at least bureaucracies move slow).

 

F*ing awesome idea..... Sounds like you should start that as a new thread, so everyone can see.....

 

If that worked....I would gladly pay, and no doubt in my mind that millions of other Americans would also!

[GeneFrenkle 2]

They don't call anyone if you have a CCW permit.

 

Wait...what? Since when? In my state a CCW permit does not allow a bypass of the NICS check. I thought this was the case everywhere.

 

Nope. In NC, if you have a CHL, you can walk in, sign a few papers and walk out with any handgun, rifle, or shotgun in about 10 minutes. No additional background check is done since the sheriff's office physically confiscates your CHL should you become ineligible to own/purchase a firearm. Thus, if you can produce a CHL, you are showing that LE has nothing on you preventing the purchase of a firearm.

 

This is allowed under the NCIS guidelines.

 

 

Oh, man, that's sweet. Didn't know that and wish it were that way in Virginia. In Fairfax (NRA HQ area), Fairfax City Sheriff needs to OK a purchase taking a week, at least the last time I bought one there. The permit here just eliminates the the limit on purchases, IIRC.

 

 

[vustah 4]

At the end of World War II, the German people were held responsible for the acts of the Nazi Party. The Americans told them their cowardice is why the Nazis were able to stay in power for so long. The people of Germany were expected to rise up against their government and stop them. They had been disarmed already and their fear of death stopped them from doing so. Therefore, the world labeled them as pathetic cowards, and they were all held responsible. How is this different? The Government is making up law as they go, obviously trying to disarm and using foolish excuses that everyone knows don't make sense, taking all America for fools. They do things that no one approves of, but who does something about it? "That crazy man" on the ten o'clock news......good thing they killed him when they did, before he did more damage.

What evidence do any of you have that tells you they will stop taking from you? They will not stop, ever. Unless you all come together and put your boots on their necks, they will take and take and take until you have nothing left to take. Then they will celebrate....with your money, and the only one to blame is the one in the mirror. ATF is arrogant but not fools, every word, every verse in the study is there for reason. If you keep watching this hand, they will slap you senseless wit de other.

 

 

Amen!!!

 

+1

[man-at-arms 2]

At the end of World War II, the German people were held responsible for the acts of the Nazi Party. The Americans told them their cowardice is why the Nazis were able to stay in power for so long. The people of Germany were expected to rise up against their government and stop them. They had been disarmed already and their fear of death stopped them from doing so. Therefore, the world labeled them as pathetic cowards, and they were all held responsible. How is this different? The Government is making up law as they go, obviously trying to disarm and using foolish excuses that everyone knows don't make sense, taking all America for fools. They do things that no one approves of, but who does something about it? "That crazy man" on the ten o'clock news......good thing they killed him when they did, before he did more damage.

What evidence do any of you have that tells you they will stop taking from you? They will not stop, ever. Unless you all come together and put your boots on their necks, they will take and take and take until you have nothing left to take. Then they will celebrate....with your money, and the only one to blame is the one in the mirror. ATF is arrogant but not fools, every word, every verse in the study is there for reason. If you keep watching this hand, they will slap you senseless wit de other.

 

 

Amen!!!

 

+1

 

 

Here's a free online book documenting /actual/ gun control under Hitler:

 

http://www.archive.org/details/GunControlInGermany1928-1945

Edited January 29, 2011 by man-at-arms

[corbin 621]

I like that they can say that front pistol grips have no sporting use.. But never even think to include hunters with hand injures in the study.

 

 

Speaking as someone with a hand injury (a fairly serious one at that), I wouldn't mind if they allowed forward PGs. SO FAR however, we're just talking about importation....... and not even a ruling yet, just a study.

 

More than likely though, they'd give special dispensation for disabled folks. Not really sure how that works. It will be mentioned in my letter to them though.

[vampire847 9]

oh darn... that just means izmash will have to expand their factories into the us and make legitimate saiga 12's for us=3

[man-at-arms 2]

[Bridis 319]

PANIC SELL ME YOUR D.D. NOW!!! BEFORE THE GUBMENT TAKES IT FRUM EWE.

 

LOL!!!

 

So many still speading the panic propaganda but no one is willing to take me up on my offer. Why is that? Hmmmm...

[SaigaKen 338]

PANIC SELL ME YOUR D.D. NOW!!! BEFORE THE GUBMENT TAKES IT FRUM EWE.

 

LOL!!!

 

So many still speading the panic propaganda but no one is willing to take me up on my offer. Why is that? Hmmmm...

 

Actually, I offered you mine on thread #100

[frick 3]

"PANIC SELL ME YOUR D.D. NOW!!! BEFORE THE GUBMENT TAKES IT FRUM EWE."

 

I just don't think he can read.

 

 

IF they become DD's they aren't going to be taken away, they are going to be registered, and future production will be illegal.

 

They took a worthless(IMHO)shotgun system, the Streetsweeper/Striker12, and made a 400 dollar shotgun a 1200 dollar shotgun, only because of scarcity.

 

For those not familiar, the above guns had triggers that were beyond terrible, and they had a propensity to crack the frame/receiver, if used with magnum ammo.

 

In other words, crap from the beginning.

 

Unlike the USAS 12, which was one hell of an innovative system, much like the Saiga.

 

The trade off is that you get a weapon thats going to be worth more, that can't be easily resold.

 

I'll sell you my 12ga Saiga, with its "Fricked" up conversion, which, should be worth MORE, because of its ease of becoming "Sporting" again.

 

Price adjusted for DD inflation.

 

3 grand, and you can bury it where you wish, as of course, DD means, Uncle Salty know where you, and your gun, be.

 

And, I'll toss in an MD-20 drum if you take it in the next 10 minutes....CALL NOW 1 800 MY PUPPY.

[ladd76 0]

Feral hog eradication is also not a legitimate purpose for an imported weapon since that is only done during fully lit daylight hours when feral hogs are out in droves destroying crops and livestock.

 

Not sure where you live bud but my community is overrun with feral hogs and they do their damage at night... wake up the next morning and everyones yard has been "roto-tilled" , fences broken, etc... some of the guys have depredation permits though which do allow shooting of these pests at night

 

NorCal

[thenomadrhodes 1]

Well that's about frigging right, as soon as i fall all in love with my S12 the man has to come and jack it all up..

I was wondering how long it would take for them to kill these Russian wonders.

Edited January 30, 2011 by TexasNomad

[Bridis 319]

PANIC SELL ME YOUR D.D. NOW!!! BEFORE THE GUBMENT TAKES IT FRUM EWE.

 

LOL!!!

 

So many still speading the panic propaganda but no one is willing to take me up on my offer. Why is that? Hmmmm...

 

Actually, I offered you mine on thread #100

 

 

I offer to buy it for $400. You offered to sell it for $2000.00. So technically you didn't take me up on my offer.

[Bridis 319]

"PANIC SELL ME YOUR D.D. NOW!!! BEFORE THE GUBMENT TAKES IT FRUM EWE."

 

I just don't think he can read.

 

 

I read fine... Can you?

 

You like others want to perpetuate the notion that something bad is on the horizon. But when asked to put your money where your SCARE is, you sit quite. What make's this funny is that people so vocal aren't willing to place a dime on their "convictions". Which should tell anyone reading their propaganda one thing.... It's BS.

[SaigaKen 338]

PANIC SELL ME YOUR D.D. NOW!!! BEFORE THE GUBMENT TAKES IT FRUM EWE.

 

LOL!!!

 

So many still speading the panic propaganda but no one is willing to take me up on my offer. Why is that? Hmmmm...

 

Actually, I offered you mine on thread #100

 

 

I offer to buy it for $400. You offered to sell it for $2000.00. So technically you didn't take me up on my offer.

 

But mine is 5 times nicer

[Juggernaut 11,054]

OK... can we bullet point the "Facts" as things stand now...

No conjecture. I will post it up in a sticky...

[lbsrdi 1,078]

Why would someone sell their gun for 400. Seems rediculous. I'll offer anyone $401 for theirs. The price is rite.

[dl-1098 3]

I've given this some thought and think the best approach is to challenge the flawed notion that there is any distinction between firearms using common "sporting" 12 gauge ammunition.

The "sporting" exemption under the definition of destructive devices was always intended to exempt all shotguns with bore sizes greater than 0.5 inches from being regulated under the NFA (unless the length was below the minimum size requirements, then it was classified as an SBS).

 

The idea is simple: 20 mm cannon rounds, 40mm grenades, 105mm howitzer rounds, etc. are considered destructive devices, and rightly so. You can't buy them at Walmart, and nobody ever uses them to hunt, shoot skeet, plink, compete in 3 gun contests, etc.

 

By contrast, All guns using common sporting cartridges, for example 12 ga birdshot, buckshot or slugs, are sporting firearms and exempt. The terminal effects of the cartridge are identical whether fired from a pump, semi-auto, H&R Topper, or finely stocked english double.

 

We started down the slippery slope in he 90's when we allowed ATF to twist the intent of the sporting use clause to demonize certain specific firearms based on subjective opinion on various cosmetic features. Now we're accepting that flawed logic as gospel and looking for a way out of it. Time to back up and challenge that notion head on.

 

 

Also, It took many years and many wasted taxpayer dollars to round up and register the relatively small quantity of strikers and streetsweepers a decade ago. I'm assuming the cost to taxpayers to conduct this study, then implement a plan to re-classify a much higher population of Saiga-12s would be significantly higher, and quantifying and publicizing estimates of the cost impact might be a way to get some support in this current fiscal climate.

[thenomadrhodes 1]

Why would someone sell their gun for 400. Seems rediculous. I'll offer anyone $401 for theirs. The price is rite.

Hate to say this but I bought mine new for 480 + tax, got to shoot it for the first time last week, been locked in the safe for all most a year.

But really what do you guys think, how long do we have before they ban these shoties?

After the killings in Tuscon and the left running full speed with this, i hear allot of buzz of large mag bans which would be basically be a gun ban seeing most guns out their hold more then 10rds, i have a bad feeling these guns might be on their way out.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

I know of a couple of LEOs that advised me to go ahead and get everything that I might be wanting, especially hi-cap mags, and mentioned Saiga 12s as well. Both of these gentlemen are well connected beyond their departments. I know not to ask, but I am sure they know more about what the future may hold than I do. When the police are scared about things it gives me a sense of urgency. I was just getting into firearms when the '94 legislation came into effect and this just seems like a reincarnation of the same nightmare, just on a smaller scale. Paranoid, tin foil hat, whatever.... I'm stocking up on anything that I can scrounge up money for. FTW!

[Vermiform 26]

In my humble opinion:

 

FACT: The BATFE IS up to something.

 

In the very least, they are about to stop the importation of something. Whatever they are about to do, the wheels have already been set in motion and there is NOTHING we are going to be able to do to stop it. It may be able to be undone in the distant future, but it will take a long time. No doubt, this thing was set in motion by the new Director of BATFE and he isn't going to change his mind no matter what we say. Whether they stop importation of some pump shotguns with evil bayonet lugs, prohibit anymore S-12 importation or DD the S-12, the Uncle BATFuck will not reverse itself. We can all argue sporting uses until we are blue in the face, but BATF does not care and the news media will not listen. If the media gives this ANY attention, they will be playing videos of mag dumps. You can bet your ass on this! Travor has the power to do whatever he wants right now. Bottom line, whatever the BATFE has planned for us, we are going to have to bend over and take it.

 

The good news:

 

The S-12 community has grown. I know Fudds that would never consider even owning an AK but went out and bought an S-12 because of it's coolness factor and it's sitting in their gun safe next to that high dollar Browning or Beretta. If all this speculation about the S-12 is correct, Uncle BATFuck is about to piss off a whole lot of people. It's not just us AK freaks anymore, Fudds own them too. This could be just the thing to unite the gun community. But what should the gun community do provided it has the ability to get organized? A letter writing campaign about the sporting uses of the S-12? To me, this is a fools errand and even on the slim chance that it did succeed, it would only be removing a fraction of a cancerous tumor that is endangering our God given rights to keep and bear arms.

 

The Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms is allowed to change OUR laws by changing policy. They have done it in the past and will continue to do so. This is blatantly UNCONSTITUTIONAL, yet they continue to do this unchecked by anyone. The BATF needs to be disbanded and scattered to the winds but this will never happen. Our best bet is to politically neuter the whole organization by changing it's leadership. Unfortunately this is not an elected position. He was appointed by the "Anointed One" himself, and he will not be removed while a Democrat President resides in the White House. Our only hope is if Obama loses the election in 2012. Only then will we be able to mount a successful campaign to unseat this assclown director, restructure the whole Bureau and have it actually doing something useful with our tax dollars. Until then we'll just have to keep the faith AND KEEP REMINDING THE FUDDS who it was that took their precious toys out of their guns safes.

 

Of course I could be wrong, it could just be a "study" to burn up some unused year end tax dollars so their budget doesn't get cut next year. Then again, requiring tax stamps for every Saiga-12 in the United States would really fill up their coffers.

[dowork1021 64]

In my humble opinion:

 

FACT: The BATFE IS up to something.

 

In the very least, they are about to stop the importation of something. Whatever they are about to do, the wheels have already been set in motion and there is NOTHING we are going to be able to do to stop it. It may be able to be undone in the distant future, but it will take a long time. No doubt, this thing was set in motion by the new Director of BATFE and he isn't going to change his mind no matter what we say. Whether they stop importation of some pump shotguns with evil bayonet lugs, prohibit anymore S-12 importation or DD the S-12, the Uncle BATFuck will not reverse itself. We can all argue sporting uses until we are blue in the face, but BATF does not care and the news media will not listen. If the media gives this ANY attention, they will be playing videos of mag dumps. You can bet your ass on this! Travor has the power to do whatever he wants right now. Bottom line, whatever the BATFE has planned for us, we are going to have to bend over and take it.

 

The good news:

 

The S-12 community has grown. I know Fudds that would never consider even owning an AK but went out and bought an S-12 because of it's coolness factor and it's sitting in their gun safe next to that high dollar Browning or Beretta. If all this speculation about the S-12 is correct, Uncle BATFuck is about to piss off a whole lot of people. It's not just us AK freaks anymore, Fudds own them too. This could be just the thing to unite the gun community. But what should the gun community do provided it has the ability to get organized? A letter writing campaign about the sporting uses of the S-12? To me, this is a fools errand and even on the slim chance that it did succeed, it would only be removing a fraction of a cancerous tumor that is endangering our God given rights to keep and bear arms.

 

The Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms is allowed to change OUR laws by changing policy. They have done it in the past and will continue to do so. This is blatantly UNCONSTITUTIONAL, yet they continue to do this unchecked by anyone. The BATF needs to be disbanded and scattered to the winds but this will never happen. Our best bet is to politically neuter the whole organization by changing it's leadership. Unfortunately this is not an elected position. He was appointed by the "Anointed One" himself, and he will not be removed while a Democrat President resides in the White House. Our only hope is if Obama loses the election in 2012. Only then will we be able to mount a successful campaign to unseat this assclown director, restructure the whole Bureau and have it actually doing something useful with our tax dollars. Until then we'll just have to keep the faith AND KEEP REMINDING THE FUDDS who it was that took their precious toys out of their guns safes.

 

Of course I could be wrong, it could just be a "study" to burn up some unused year end tax dollars so their budget doesn't get cut next year. Then again, requiring tax stamps for every Saiga-12 in the United States would really fill up their coffers.

 

 

I dont even understand why they are even attacking the saiga 12's in the first place. I have yet to hear about a psyco with a S12 and a 20 round drum unloading it in a crowd. Almost every average joe citizen has a mossberg pump in "sporting " configuration and (correct me if im wrong) almost all killings whether it be home invasion or robbery has been with good ol' american pumps. The saiga 12 is just plain badass and it scares people that dont know what the fuck they are talking about. Again i might be just talking out of my ass but i truly dont see the point in this whole thing. I live in AZ and are pretty much unrestricted in what firearm you can own but that whole tucson shooting has all those democrats going after hi cap mags. Im sure as they here about the saigas they will go after them as well. But as people have posted before me more and more people are discovering these unique shotguns and with the new show "sons of guns" demand will sky rocket and people will do anything to get them. Im curious to see when and how the people of the US will finally pull there head out of there ass and do something. We need a game plan!

 

p.s. Has anyone heard if the NRA has anything to say about this???