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The only one I am somewhat concerned by is

 

(9) excessive bulk (greater than 3 inches in width and/or greater than 4 inches in depth)

 

If they mean on average, no biggie. If they mean at the deepest point, well, using uncle batfuck logic, that takes an S-12 with a factory 5-round magazine inserted right out of the picture.

In the picture it shows the receiver so it shouldn't be an issue with the magazine making it over 4 inches. It also stated that a protruding charging handle is not included in the measurement.

Edited by BuffetDestroyer
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It seems to me that they are going after the Saiga shotguns with the "Excessive Bulk" feature. If you measure from the bottom of the trigger guard to the top of the dust cover it measures about 4.25". If you look at the same dimensions on say a Benelli it measures JUST UNDER 4".

 

Coincidence? I don't think so.

 

I hope I am wrong on this as I haven't bought a Saiga shotgun yet!

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Check out pg 13-

 

"The fact that a firearm or feature was initially designed for military or tactical applications, including offensive or defensive combat, may indicate that it is not a sporting firearm."

 

Saiga receivers are based on the AK-47 action. IMHO, "sporting purposes" acrobatic semantics aside, the stage is being set- At least for an edict on making the Saiga harder to convert.

 

 

It is unclear to me how this could reasonably be used as a disciminant for imports. Plenty of non-imports were "based on military/tactical applications" like garands, mini's, etc. Why would it be applied to imports? I think I'm missing something. Could someone help me understand, please?

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It seems to me that they are going after the Saiga shotguns with the "Excessive Bulk" feature. If you measure from the bottom of the trigger guard to the top of the dust cover it measures about 4.25". If you look at the same dimensions on say a Benelli it measures JUST UNDER 4".

 

Coincidence? I don't think so.

 

I hope I am wrong on this as I haven't bought a Saiga shotgun yet!

Look at page 32, you don't include the trigger guard in the measurement.

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It seems to me that they are going after the Saiga shotguns with the "Excessive Bulk" feature. If you measure from the bottom of the trigger guard to the top of the dust cover it measures about 4.25". If you look at the same dimensions on say a Benelli it measures JUST UNDER 4".

 

Coincidence? I don't think so.

 

I hope I am wrong on this as I haven't bought a Saiga shotgun yet!

Look at page 32, you don't include the trigger guard in the measurement.

 

 

Thanks!! I missed that.

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Clearly the Saiga shotgun is the target of these "Jack Booted Thugs." They will stop the importation if they think that they can get away with it reguardless of facts or imput from the industry.

 

An American made Saiga clone may be the answer to this on going battle against the 2nd Amendment.

 

Does the ATF need congressional approval to re-classify a shotgun as a Destructive Device? If not, we are in real trouble. If so, there may be some time when Saigas are really expensive and eventually dry up until someone desides to make a Saiga clone.

 

I would buy a 100% American Tromix Clone in a heartbeat.

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It seems to me that they are going after the Saiga shotguns with the "Excessive Bulk" feature. If you measure from the bottom of the trigger guard to the top of the dust cover it measures about 4.25". If you look at the same dimensions on say a Benelli it measures JUST UNDER 4".

 

Coincidence? I don't think so.

 

I hope I am wrong on this as I haven't bought a Saiga shotgun yet!

I'll have my Dad measure an old Belgium Browning he has as I recall that old humpbacked shotty seems very close dimension-wise to a Saiga and that is a very old BIRDGUN.

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Yeah, oh the ass chewing those people will get if they piss off Browning A5 owners.

 

Isn't there some sort of law where you can put down the hammer of common sense and

tell them they are completely batshit ignorant on something and thus have not the

power to make any rules?

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The ATF especially under ObaMuslim is beginning to become more hostile to our rights and his new appointee to head that agency is one of the worst gun grabbers in the Chicago area. The sporting clause comes right out of the 1938 Nazi law turned into the 1968 Gun Control Act.

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it is irritating how much controversy people try to stir up over something as petty as a pistol grip on a shotgun. but im greatly relieved to say that its really not an issue for me anymore. i just picked up my converted saiga 12. only thing i need now is some 10 round mags. and maybe a chaos quad rail with HK sights.

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Y'all forgive me for saying this in public forum but, with all this non-sense I am seriously just going with a semi auto Remington shotgun. Do not get me wrong, I still like the Saiga shotguns, and I need to consider one more especially now.

 

I feel as though crap is about to hit big time. The issue I have is putting close to a grand into a weapon, and the having the asswipes with badges come knocking to take it away.

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Y'all forgive me for saying this in public forum but, with all this non-sense I am seriously just going with a semi auto Remington shotgun. Do not get me wrong, I still like the Saiga shotguns, and I need to consider one more especially now.

 

I feel as though crap is about to hit big time. The issue I have is putting close to a grand into a weapon, and the having the asswipes with badges come knocking to take it away.

 

They can't do that. At the worst it'll be like the SPAS-12 or the Street Sweeper that were re-classified as Destructive Devices, and with those that were in citizen's hands they grandfathered in a free tax stamp, making the guns more valuable.

 

Not that I care. I'm not a gun investor. I'm a gun enthusiast, and I don't want to see the value of my S12 rise because of this.

 

 

But, as I understand it, and I have not read the official site or "study" claims, the BATFE is actually gauging (hey....that was a pun) interest and accepting comments until May 1 about this. Whether they will wipe their ass with our letters or comments remains to be seen, but perhaps instead of starting new thread #'s 32-273 whining, carping, slandering, and bitching about it in this corner of the internet, MAYBE we can use our time ABSOLUTELY BURY THEM with a mountain of well-crafted and high-quality toilet paper before they do.

 

Huh? How about expending some energy towards THAT rather than clogging up S12 with another identical thread?

 

Hey, have your friends, professors, lawyers, and your old high-school English teacher proofread them. Send one. Send several. Make it good.

 

Oh, and if you're the type that's unable to write a letter less than about 1000 words in length, and cannot guarantee that those words won't be things like "Hitler", "Muslim", "communist", "hate", "New World Order", "Conspiracy", "Rape", "Waco", "Ruby Ridge", "Stalin", "Leftist", etc., then maybe y'all ought to sit this one out.

 

Frothingly insane letters like that would be more persuasive, of course, but I assure you it will be in opposite of what you're trying to accomplish.

 

 

So......can we shitcan the hyperbole and bitching and maybe start letting our opinions be known in an ADULT manner to the authorities that seem to be asking for our input?

 

 

Maybe?

Edited by Vicarious_Lee
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Well I finally got around to reading the entire "Study on the Importability of Certain Shotguns". Besides setting an example of how to use as many words as possible to say a fairly simple thing, it seems to me that the Saiga should remain on the list of importable shotguns. It doesn't have a separate pistol grip (as imported), it doesn't come with a magazine exceeding 5 rounds (as imported), it doesn't have an integrated rail system (as imported), it doesn't come with a forward pistol grip (as imported), and it's bulk receiver measurements and overall weight do not exceed the standards for importation. While it's certainly ugly (as imported), it's overall dimensions and handling characteristics fall well within those of any traditional semi-auto sporting shotgun. You could even argue that by locating the ammunition supply under the receiver rather than under the barrel, it enhances the pointability and swingability of the gun for skeet, trap and sporting clays, as well as general hunting.

 

They have obviously added the Saiga drum magazine manufactured in the U.S. because they want to make hay over the detachable magazine of the Saiga. But I believe they're making a logical fallacy in that argument. As imported, the Saiga meets all the "sporting purpose" standards of the 68' GCA. If it didn't, they never would have allowed it to be imported in the first place. Nothing in the two subsequent studies really changes that. If they try to bring up the "adaptability" of the Saiga into a "military" configuration once it gets here, then the counter-argument to that is that there's nothing in the 68' GCA that bans manufacture of "military" configuration firearms here in the U.S. Since it doesn't get "made" in that configuration until it's already here, then the 68' GCA doesn't apply. In this context, all the 68' GCA addresses is the importation of "non-sporting" firearms, not their manufacture or assembly in the U.S.

 

BATFE is free to pursue 922® violations if they so choose, as that's the "tool" Congress has given them. We all know that BATFE and the DOJ are loathe to pursue 922® cases, because many believe they will get laughed out of court. We all need to focus our efforts on exposing the logical fallacy of banning the Saiga, rather than ineffectively arguing that USPSA is a "sporting purpose". That dog won't hunt, at least not during this study.

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Well I finally got around to reading the entire "Study on the Importability of Certain Shotguns". Besides setting an example of how to use as many words as possible to say a fairly simple thing, it seems to me that the Saiga should remain on the list of importable shotguns. It doesn't have a separate pistol grip (as imported), it doesn't come with a magazine exceeding 5 rounds (as imported), it doesn't have an integrated rail system (as imported), it doesn't come with a forward pistol grip (as imported), and it's bulk receiver measurements and overall weight do not exceed the standards for importation. While it's certainly ugly (as imported), it's overall dimensions and handling characteristics fall well within those of any traditional semi-auto sporting shotgun. You could even argue that by locating the ammunition supply under the receiver rather than under the barrel, it enhances the pointability and swingability of the gun for skeet, trap and sporting clays, as well as general hunting.

 

They have obviously added the Saiga drum magazine manufactured in the U.S. because they want to make hay over the detachable magazine of the Saiga. But I believe they're making a logical fallacy in that argument. As imported, the Saiga meets all the "sporting purpose" standards of the 68' GCA. If it didn't, they never would have allowed it to be imported in the first place. Nothing in the two subsequent studies really changes that. If they try to bring up the "adaptability" of the Saiga into a "military" configuration once it gets here, then the counter-argument to that is that there's nothing in the 68' GCA that bans manufacture of "military" configuration firearms here in the U.S. Since it doesn't get "made" in that configuration until it's already here, then the 68' GCA doesn't apply. In this context, all the 68' GCA addresses is the importation of "non-sporting" firearms, not their manufacture or assembly in the U.S.

 

BATFE is free to pursue 922® violations if they so choose, as that's the "tool" Congress has given them. We all know that BATFE and the DOJ are loathe to pursue 922® cases, because many believe they will get laughed out of court. We all need to focus our efforts on exposing the logical fallacy of banning the Saiga, rather than ineffectively arguing that USPSA is a "sporting purpose". That dog won't hunt, at least not during this study.

 

This study certainly appears to be the successor to http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/documents/report-on-importability-of-semi-automatic-rifles.pdf

 

I think the "detachable (box or drum) magazine" acceptance is a problem in and of itself because it -can- accept those magazines even if they aren't imported with those items. Even if you believe they will green light the Saiga for importation in its current configuration they do say that these 'features' are not an exhaustive list and they can decide others as they see fit.

 

That's why we should level our objections in the public comment, particularly focusing on sporting purposes and the need to bring that definition current.

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