jbmidnight 8 Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 I dropped the tape measure down my bbl and its 24.5" to the closed bolt. this is with my birdcage brake on. I want to cut it down but worried about possible rust/corrosion. question #1. Can i cut it to where it is 18.5 with brake permantly installed or does the bbl need to be 18.5 w/o brake? #2. I was going to use a pipe cutter just to lightly score bbl to get a good guide line then use saw. Any recommended blade over others or any hacksaw blade for metal? As for threading I was going to order the threader from CSS. Thanks in advance for all your help, you guys know your the best. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
danklab 57 Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) I believe that technically, by law, you aren't supposed to cut the barrel to under 18" without paperwork. Even if you plan to immediately thread and permanently attach a brake to bring it to 18". What happens is that you are in possession of an unregistered SBS during the period of time that you do not have the brake attached... IIRC. If you want to do this yourself.. your best option is to remove the barrel first so that it is not part of the firearm, and then the receiver should be at another location while the work is being done. I'm not an expert on the law, but I believe this is the only way to do this procedure 100% legally without having a Class 3 (?) firearms license. Someone will be along shortly with a more expert knowledge of regulations of the law as it applies to this issue though. Now.. on the other hand... If you just want to shorten your total barrel length to 18" and then thread and add a brake, you are 100% fine. You minimum must be 18" though. The best option would probably just be to send it to a qualified smith to have the work done. It would probably end up costing you about the same to have them do it as it would to buy the die, holder, & tat yourself. Edited February 1, 2011 by danklab Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gunfanatic 221 Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Danklab is right any time you cut the barrel below 18" you are manufacturing a SBS regardless if you plan to permanently attach a break. Also never cut it to exactly 18". The ATF specifies at least a 1/4" error in measurement of barrel length (i.e. your 18" barrel and be measured 17 3/4"). So be on the safe side and give it an extra 1/2". As to the function you may need to open up your ports some after cutting the barrel. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) Every agent I have asked about this same problem, and I have asked 10-12, has said that it was a non-issue. Most have said, if you are going to properly secure the muzzle device to make legal OAL right after the barrel shortening, "How would anyone catch you?" Now you may be the poor unlucky bastard that has BATF Ninjas watching him through his workshop window or via spy satellite, just waiting on that final hacksaw stroke.... This seems more a topic of concern for Internet Polly-Anna's then real people that want to stay within the law. Pop the barrel out of the receiver is this is an overwhelming concern for you. To get back to the point of the OP's question, you will find a lot of guys that are dismissive of the idea of using a tubing cutter, however it will do an excellent job if you remember three (3) things. 1. Keep the feed of the cutting wheel very slow. Do not attempt to take a deep cut or you will swage a crude choke onto the end of your barrel. I would keep turning down the cutter feed thumbscrew a little at a time until it was cleaning cut through. 2. Get a round or conical stone and use it to cut a slight champer on the inside of the barrel. This will eliminate any burr that forms by the using the above method. If you have a burr on the outside a large flat file can be used to go around the outside edge a few times and eliminate it. 3. If you need to reattach a muzzle device do so with high temperature silver solider and do so at once. Period. Edited February 1, 2011 by Azrial 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jbmidnight 8 Posted February 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Thanks Azrial Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hobbyshooter 59 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 I dropped the tape measure down my bbl and its 24.5" to the closed bolt. this is with my birdcage brake on. I want to cut it down but worried about possible rust/corrosion. question #1. Can i cut it to where it is 18.5 with brake permantly installed or does the bbl need to be 18.5 w/o brake? #2. I was going to use a pipe cutter just to lightly score bbl to get a good guide line then use saw. Any recommended blade over others or any hacksaw blade for metal? As for threading I was going to order the threader from CSS. If you are going to permanently attach the brake, why is threading the barrel important? If the brake is permanently attached it is considered part of the barrel length. A lathe would be the right way to cut it. A horizontal band saw would come in send best. A chop saw would be the last acceptable way as long as the right blade is used. Every agent I have asked about this same problem, and I have asked 10-12, has said that it was a non-issue. Most have said, if you are going to properly secure the muzzle device to make legal OAL right after the barrel shortening, "How would anyone catch you?" Now you may be the poor unlucky bastard that has BATF Ninjas watching Fuel for your fire: Remove the stock from an 18" bbl Ruger 10/22 and it is immediately breaking federal OAL law despite still being a functional rifle. The stock comes off with 1 straight slot screw, and is required to field strip as the trigger group pins are retained by the stock. So basically anybody with a 10/22 who has field stripped it has broekne fardeel wal... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sumsky 115 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 I chopped my SBS to 12 inches with a Abrasive wheel on a 14 inch Chopsaw. I used the Laser, a level, and a square rule to align the the Barrel before cutting. The Abrasive wheel cuts through the Russian Steel like it was Butter, I just gently let the Blade go through. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 We have to take your new little friend out to play... LOL. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jbmidnight 8 Posted February 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 Is the s12's bbl carbon steel? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SJgunguy 5 Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 What's the key for getting the barrel out without damage? Do I have to machine a special slug that fits the chamber mouth? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jbmidnight 8 Posted February 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Well i took Azrials advice and slowly took my time with a good pipe cutter. Approx 6 minutes it took and it is exactly 18.5" from closed bolt face. no indentations on inside of bbl as I took my time cutting. Just a nice even cut with no bad choke from rushing it. Used a conical stone to smooth out the inside and going to use blue wonders cold blue but in black for coloring it. Thanks everyone for chiming in and suggestions. This was before now after 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mike12345 18 Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) most shotguns you can use a pipe cutter, that'll make a nice clean and straight cut. I used a pipe cutter a few times, it seems to work the best. I always get an angled cut with saws. Edited February 10, 2011 by mike123456 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Well i took Azrials advice and slowly took my time with a good pipe cutter. Approx 6 minutes it took and it is exactly 18.5" from closed bolt face. no indentations on inside of bbl as I took my time cutting. Just a nice even cut with no bad choke from rushing it. Used a conical stone to smooth out the inside and going to use blue wonders cold blue but in black for coloring it. Thanks everyone for chiming in and suggestions. ... I am glad to hear that it worked out for you. I knew it would, I have done this many times. It looks like you did a good job! One of the great tragedies of the Internet is that most folks have an opinion, even if they no practical experience in the matter... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gremlinx 20 Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 most shotguns you can use a pipe cutter, that'll make a nice clean and straight cut. I used a pipe cutter a few times, it seems to work the best. I always get an angled cut with saws. Everytime I have seen that it curls the barrel in.... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 most shotguns you can use a pipe cutter, that'll make a nice clean and straight cut. I used a pipe cutter a few times, it seems to work the best. I always get an angled cut with saws. Everytime I have seen that it curls the barrel in.... Goober, I +1ed you by accident, not in support of your statement. But no matter, when you see that what you see is someone that turned the feed screw in too much, too fast, and tried to take too big a cut. Placebo said he took approximatey 6 minutes and that is why he did not have this problem. I have cut many this way and never had a problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
skiboatsp 111 Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 I believe that technically, by law, you aren't supposed to cut the barrel to under 18" without paperwork. Even if you plan to immediately thread and permanently attach a brake to bring it to 18". What happens is that you are in possession of an unregistered SBS during the period of time that you do not have the brake attached... IIRC. If you want to do this yourself.. your best option is to remove the barrel first so that it is not part of the firearm, and then the receiver should be at another location while the work is being done. I'm not an expert on the law, but I believe this is the only way to do this procedure 100% legally without having a Class 3 (?) firearms license. Someone will be along shortly with a more expert knowledge of regulations of the law as it applies to this issue though. Now.. on the other hand... If you just want to shorten your total barrel length to 18" and then thread and add a brake, you are 100% fine. You minimum must be 18" though. The best option would probably just be to send it to a qualified smith to have the work done. It would probably end up costing you about the same to have them do it as it would to buy the die, holder, & tat yourself. I just talked with the ATF. I was put in contact with a 15 yr. technical supervisor. He spoke in length about this issue. His exact words were, if you cut the barrel below 18" on a shotgun without paper work you are in violation of federal law period, and this is not taken lightly. He also stated that the attachment method is the main concern. Many people doing this work do not have the proper skills to satisfy the BATF's requirements. What I found very interesting was the way he stated they check a suspisious weapon in the lab for proper permanant attachment of a muzzle device is if they can twist it off easily with a wrench. I also read him some of the comments from this thread and his statment was many people are flat wrong. I am not trying to challange anyone on this forum in any way. If the moderator would like I can give the agents name and direct number and he can verify this information. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jbmidnight 8 Posted February 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Of course he would say all that. Thats like calling a Dr saying you have a medical problem. No matter how minimal they will say to go to the ER. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Personally, I would never worry about it. I have no doubt that SaigaTechUSA is telling the truth, about this one particular Supervisor. As a street LEO people were always asking me permission to do trivial things like park illegally for a moment, drive their car across the street without insurance on it and could they have sex with their girlfriend without the benefit of marriage. All are illegal and I said no to all of them for one simple reason, I was in the Enforcement Business, not the Permission giving business. My job was to enforce the laws given me by the State Legislature, not to presume the power to suspend these laws. But I did have the authority, most times, to judge how to spend my enforcement time and I assure you that I did not waste it trying to catch otherwise honest people in temporary technical violation of the law. There is what the law says, and the spirit and intent of the law. I honestly do not think that the original legislative intent of these laws was to catch people in technical violation, but to criminally sanction those that were using shortened firearms for criminal purposes. Unfortunately, that can quickly become the call of a Judge with overzealous enforcement. If the BATF truly has so little to do that this is a high priority concern for them, the half hour it takes to High Temperature Silver Solder or pin a barrel back to lawful compliance, then I think that they are over funded and wasting my tax payer money. What happened to all the guns supposely being sold illegally from American guns shows that were claimed to being used in the Mexican Drug Wars? Is that now so under control that they have time to camp outside our shops, waiting on that last hacksaw stroke to make the bust, before some poor bastard can finish reattaching the muzzle device? 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Zambidis 90 Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Every agent I have asked about this same problem, and I have asked 10-12, has said that it was a non-issue. Most have said, if you are going to properly secure the muzzle device to make legal OAL right after the barrel shortening, "How would anyone catch you?" By one's own admission and by his or her documenting it online? While it is illegal it is also true one is unlikely to be caught. If one creates a bunch of evidence including an admission that sure ups the odds though. Well i took Azrials advice and slowly took my time with a good pipe cutter. Approx 6 minutes it took and it is exactly 18.5" from closed bolt face. no indentations on inside of bbl as I took my time cutting. Just a nice even cut with no bad choke from rushing it. Used a conical stone to smooth out the inside and going to use blue wonders cold blue but in black for coloring it. Thanks everyone for chiming in and suggestions. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jbmidnight 8 Posted February 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Zambidis I fail to see any admission if you are implying I am guilty of something. As I am sure you can read since you quoted it I cut the bbl to 18.5 from the closed bolt. So that is legal from anyway you look at it, Even w/o the brake installed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hobbyshooter 59 Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 I just talked with the ATF. I was put in contact with a 15 yr. technical supervisor. He spoke in length about this issue. His exact words were, if you cut the barrel below 18" on a shotgun without paper work you are in violation of federal law period, and this is not taken lightly. He also stated that the attachment method is the main concern. Many people doing this work do not have the proper skills to satisfy the BATF's requirements. What I found very interesting was the way he stated they check a suspicious weapon in the lab for proper permanent attachment of a muzzle device is if they can twist it off easily with a wrench. I also read him some of the comments from this thread and his statement was many people are flat wrong. I am not trying to challenge anyone on this forum in any way. If the moderator would like I can give the agents name and direct number and he can verify this information. So by that statement, if I assume OAL rules follow the same lack of logic; it is illegal to field strip or change barrels on a 16" barreled Ruger 10/22. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bc5000 26 Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) Zambidis I fail to see any admission if you are implying I am guilty of something. As I am sure you can read since you quoted it I cut the bbl to 18.5 from the closed bolt. So that is legal from anyway you look at it, Even w/o the brake installed. So what method did you use to perm attach the brake? Edited February 11, 2011 by bc5000 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jbmidnight 8 Posted February 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 haven't put one on yet. Its just a cut 18.5" bbl at this moment. Not sure if I want to add one now Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) I just talked with the ATF. I was put in contact with a 15 yr. technical supervisor. He spoke in length about this issue. His exact words were, if you cut the barrel below 18" on a shotgun without paper work you are in violation of federal law period, and this is not taken lightly. He also stated that the attachment method is the main concern. Many people doing this work do not have the proper skills to satisfy the BATF's requirements. What I found very interesting was the way he stated they check a suspicious weapon in the lab for proper permanent attachment of a muzzle device is if they can twist it off easily with a wrench. I also read him some of the comments from this thread and his statement was many people are flat wrong. I am not trying to challenge anyone on this forum in any way. If the moderator would like I can give the agents name and direct number and he can verify this information. So by that statement, if I assume OAL rules follow the same lack of logic; it is illegal to field strip or change barrels on a 16" barreled Ruger 10/22. Well let's not shoot the messenger here, SaigatechUSA is just reporting what he was told. I did not read where he claimed to be in favor of this! I find the reported testing method to be of particular interest! With enough of a cheater bar I could easily twist off even a TIG weld! That said, when you ask enough regulatory questions of a Regulator, all you will get is more regulation.... My opinion is we really don't need that and none of these opinions, pro or con, have any legal merit. Even Advice letters, from a BATF Attorney, only have legal relevance with the original requester. When I ask these questions, I only do so informally and would urge others to do the same. Edited February 11, 2011 by Azrial Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 By one's own admission and by his or her documenting it online? While it is illegal it is also true one is unlikely to be caught. If one creates a bunch of evidence including an admission that sure ups the odds though. Well if he was found in possession of an underlength firearm this could certainly be used as evidence, otherwise, it is just another funny Internet story, not a sworn confession. I did not read where Placebo ever said that he cut it underlength. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
skiboatsp 111 Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) After all who am I to be talking 4 at18.25" Edited February 11, 2011 by saigatechusa 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jbmidnight 8 Posted February 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Damn them are some nice weapons Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mike12345 18 Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) most shotguns you can use a pipe cutter, that'll make a nice clean and straight cut. I used a pipe cutter a few times, it seems to work the best. I always get an angled cut with saws. Everytime I have seen that it curls the barrel in.... All you have to do is take one of the handy deburring tools to remove that. You dont even have to make a slow cut. Edited February 11, 2011 by mike123456 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 most shotguns you can use a pipe cutter, that'll make a nice clean and straight cut. I used a pipe cutter a few times, it seems to work the best. I always get an angled cut with saws. Everytime I have seen that it curls the barrel in.... All you have to do is take one of the handy deburring tools to remove that. You dont even have to make a slow cut. If you are cutting regular pipe, you can always deburr, but cutting a chrome lined barrel you want to minimize that to save the chrome lining. A pipe cutter is really just "plowing" metal out of the way as the wheel rolls. So any extra pressure will will actually "neck down" the barrel similar to how reloaders alter brass to hold a smaller bullet. The bigger the restriction you create in the shotgun barrel, the more you have to bevel into the chrome lining to get back to "full bore" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jbmidnight 8 Posted February 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Went to the range today. 200 rounds of Federal Bulk from Wally World and only one FTL and that was the last round on my MD drum. All the Surefire mags without a hiccup. So happy. Thanks all for chiming in with advice and opinions. They were all appreciated. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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