Handloading: BTHP vs FMJBT and length/lands

[Snakum 1]

I've been documenting my S308s accuracy at each step in it's evolution and my next move is to work up a good handload for it. I fired a few of my 168gr Amax loads I use in competition thru the Saiga and they were twice a bad as the steel cased FMJ and SPs. It was laughably bad in light of the fact that my Silver Bear soft points shot a 1.5" three-shot group following the grip and stock conversion.

 

Anyway, I have heard that the Saiga generally prefers lighter bullets, which would ordinarily make sense with the 1:12 bore - though the US Marines shoot 175gr just fine out of 1:12 rifles. For you guys that are handloading, what weight are you seeing a preference for? I'm ordering 145 - 155 grain bullets to try out, but was curious what the S308 experts are seeing.

 

I have 168gr Amax and BTHP bullets and will work some stuff up today to test. I have heard that hollow points don't shoot as well in the S308 as FMJ or ballistic tipped ammo. Is this your experience, as well? I may grab lighter weight FMJBTs and Amaxes when I order reloading supplies next week.

 

Using what I have on hand I'm working up some FGMM clones today to try out, using 41.5gr 4064 over 168gr Match Kings. I will probably load the same weight in Match Kings and Amaxes over 4895 and work up and down .3gr since I have a ton of 4895. The 43.5 of 4895 under the Amaxes seemed way too hot for the Saiga and were all over the place on target. Just horrid accuracy.

 

Anyone playing with the OAL with the Saiga, what are you seeing a preference for? I've seen loads at 2.800 and at 2.780, while my bolt and pump 308s prefer much longer OALs.

 

For anyone who uses 4064 or 4895, what are your favorite loads for medium range (300 - 500 yards) accuracy? I don't see the S308 working well past that, nor should it. It is more a Squad Designated Rifle as far as I can tell, and that's right where my gap is (was): between AKMs (0 - 300) and my Savage FCP (500 - 800). Anyone standing past 800 yards is not a threat to me and I'll leave him alone.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Snakum

[Dudethebagman 222]

I have the longer barrel.

 

So far mine likes the 168 SMK and 42-43.5 grains of Varget the best. 2.8 - 2.81 OAL with a BR-2 primer. I haven't played with length too much - this load shoots more consistently than I do.

 

I had some good groups with Hornady SST 150's and TAC, but can't replicate those results on a regular basis like with the Varget/SMK load.

[Snakum 1]

I should have mentioned I have the 22" barrel (I know, it is only 21.8"). I'm cutting it down to 20" and getting a recessed target crown soon. Gotta save those pennies first.

 

I'm going to load some Amaxes and Match Kings today and if the 168gr bullets shoot under 2MOA I'll just start experimenting with those (length OCW, etc.). If not I'll go ahead and order some 155 Amax and MK bullets. Was curious what others are finding. The 168gr MKs and Amaxes should work fine at that twist rate, but I read posts to the contrary. Who knows? Every barrel is different.

[cw3sting 12]

I prefer the Lapua 170 and 150 FMJ's in the S308, just to minimize the potential for tip deformation.

 

So far, a longer COAL than 2.80 appears to feed and shoot better.

 

Here's my best group so far:

 

 

Velocities:

 

2480 2487 2614 2529 2578

Rifle: S308 16 inch barrel (15% extra strength recoil spring from Brownell's)

 

Gr Powder Bullet

44.0 Varget 170gr Lapua FMJ

 

WInchester cases, new, full length resized.

WLR primers.

COAL: 2.83

 

Since then, I've experimented with 2.80 and 2.81 COAL with worse results.

 

After eight months of shooting the S308, I believe that the most serious problems with accuracy are me and the trigger. A 2-stage FCG might improve things.

 

For reloading, I plan to return to the maximum length that the magazine will hold with reliable feeding (probably 2.82 - 2.83).

 

DISCLAIMER: Although the load is 2 gr below maximum stated by Hodgdon for a 168gr bullet, the reader is cautioned to always refer to commercial reloading charts and approach all charge weights from a safe lower minimum for safety. The reader accepts all responsibility for use of this information.

[Snakum 1]

Thanks for the numbers and results. Not too many S308 shooters have a lot of handloading or competition experience. This kind of info is hard to come by for an AK platform.

 

I've now run OAL from 2.750 to 2.820 and also find closer to the lands works better, as does lighter charges and bullet weights - in my particular rifle, anyway. I'm ordering 500 150gr Match Kings or 155gr Amaxes tomorrow and I'm hoping that what shoots best in my Saiga will still shoot sub MOA in my FCP bolt gun, so I can load one round for both. I don't shoot past 800 yards in the bolt gun in local and regional comps so I don't care if the 150s are going subsonic at 800 or so and begin to tumble. Most targets on the long range tactical comps where I use the bolt gun are 400 - 600. And the light charge and weight will help me spot myself on the SDM courses with the Saiga, too. We work in two-man teams but there is rarely time for a spotter to set up and follow my POI on each course of fire.

 

When the 150gr MKs or 155gr Amaxes (still deciding) are delivered I'm going to try 39.0 to 41.5 in .5 grain increments and load them all 2.820. This should, based on what I've seen so far, shoot as well as my Saiga is capable of. I just need a consistent 2 MOA for a ten shot string to be OK on the SDM competitions, as most targets are in the 200 - 400 yard range and round count is unlimited.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Snakum

[DTakas 2]

[Snakum 1]

Good to hear about the cut and crown. I've gotta get that done soon, I fear. So far I'm not having much luck reaching 2 MOA with various commercial and handloaded ammo. And this is just three-shot groups. I figure if my first 3 shots won't group under two inches and my shot was good (didn't pull it) then firing two more is just wasting ammo. I know the rifle will do better than this.

 

On the lighter bullets ... I talked a couple of local guys with S308 and PSL experience who also shoot long range matches and are handload nerds. Both felt that 7.62 Com Bloc rifles shot better with lighter fare, and I also noticed a very disturbing trend toward my light steel cased FMJ and SP ammo shooting better than meticulous handloads that are heavier. So I decided to try a box of 155gr Amax molys this week with lighter charges. I'll probably try 150gr Match Kings, also. If it no workee ... gots plenty of 168gr bullets of various shapes.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Snakum

[Snakum 1]

I got the new scope on and was able to compare a few more loads today. The new Monarch with .5 mil hash marks works well for hold-overs, better than my Bushy mil/mil with std reticule. Still seeing 145gr FMJ (Brown Bear) shoot better than any 168gr handload I can work up. I hope the 155gr bullets will shoot better. I also learned that a bipod just ain't working on mine. I put on another sling stud about 3 inches forward of the receiver and mounted one of my Harris swivel bipods on it. Even though I'm not loading up the bipod like I do on the bolt gun it's still affecting the barrel. The 145gr Bears will shoot right at 2" for a full 7-round mag if I just lay it across the ruck and run a Red Tac bag on the rear, while using the bipod and getting a much steadier picture as a result puts me over 3". I've ground the second stud off as low as I can so I know it's not touching the barrel, but it's still pushing on the forearm inconsistently.

 

Next up ... 155gr Amaxes loaded light. We'll see this weekend.

[Dudethebagman 222]

I originally had my bipod on a contraption that mounted into where the forearm screws into the receiver. The mount was a block that put the bipod an inch or so foreward, so it spanned between the receiver and the handguard and kept most of the pressure off the barrel. It was kind of awkward for mag changes, so I put my bipod on the front swivel sling stud. It hasn't affected my groups. Or it has and my inconsistent shooting has masked the change inside similar sized groups.

 

I don't doubt that other people's rifles shoot better with lighter bullets, but that hasn't been my experience so far. Maybe I need to try some better quality ~150 grainers.

 

I hope mine likes Nosler Custom Competition 168's as much as it likes SMK 168's, because I just ordered 300 of them and haven't tried them out yet. I also ordered 165 SST's, 165 GameKing HP's, a box of Wolf and a box of Prvi Partizan 168 Match, and have a new powder (Reloader 15) and new (once fired) brass to play with.

 

I'll post my results when I'm able to get out and make a day of it.

 

Pics from a couple months ago:

 

I've shot better looking groups with the SMK load, but that size is a good representation of how it usually performs @ 100 yards when I don't screw it up.

I've shot a couple like that with the SST load, and some that were considerably worse. It doesn't perform as consistently as the SMK's. I think it may be more picky about charge weight. Luckily I just got a better (non-digital) scale. Unluckily I'm out of 150 SST's and TAC and don't know it the results are worth pursuing any further.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Dudethebagman

[Dudethebagman 222]

 

 

 

 

 

After eight months of shooting the S308, I believe that the most serious problems with accuracy are me and the trigger.

 

That's why I shoot 4 shot groups. I think 4 shots can demonstrate mechanical accuracy well enough to be useful, especially if they can be repeated on a fairly consistent basis. If I had to shoot 5, it'd probably end up where your #3 is. The 5th shot frequently just proves that I need more practice and pisses me off.

[Snakum 1]

That's why I shoot 4 shot groups. I think 4 shots can demonstrate mechanical accuracy well enough to be useful, especially if they can be repeated on a fairly consistent basis.

 

I usually shoot only three or four shot groups when working up loads, as well. No sense wasting powder and bullets just trying to narrow down charge weights. When I have it down to two loads I will shoot five or more to see how it shoot when the barrel is good and hot. Also, I almost always know when I've flubbed one, too, so I might pull one out when comparing group size since I am concerned only with changes in the mechanical accuracy due to weapon config changes or load changes. I'm not a bench rest shooter. Just trying to make sure my rifle is shooting the best that it can.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Snakum

[Tokageko 8]

So far, my old rifle (21" barrel) liked this load the best: 155 grain Sierra Palma Matchking bullets with 42 grains of IMR 4895 powder, in Winchester cases with... I forget what primers.

 

 

I'm not sure how many shots that was (because I didn't write it down), but it's at 100 yards.

[Dudethebagman 222]

So far, my old rifle (21" barrel) liked this load the best: 155 grain Sierra Palma Matchking bullets with 42 grains of IMR 4895 powder, in Winchester cases with... I forget what primers.

 

 

I'm not sure how many shots that was (because I didn't write it down), but it's at 100 yards.

 

Nice shooting, unless you just fired a full mag and put the stickers on after. In that case, nice cheating.

 

I may have to try those palma bullets. I didn't think they would stabilize in a Saiga.

[Tokageko 8]

It does look a little suspect, I know. It's the only picture that I had though. As soon as I get a chance, I'll post something better.

[Snakum 1]

OK I'm just flat out of ideas. I cannot get this thing even close to 2 MOA for five shots, not even on the same planet. What's really killing me is that Brown Bear FMJ and Silver Bear SP shoot better than every meticulous handload I have cooked up. I am pulling my hair out with this thing.

 

I have tried Amax and Match King bullets from 155 to 168 over two different powders at OALs from 2.780 to 2.830, at charges from 39.0 to 43.0 at .5gr increments. I'm out of ideas and soon to run out of time, too.

 

Suggestions?

 

145gr FMJs to try and make a "more consistent" Brown Bear since it's kicked the ass of everything else?

[Dudethebagman 222]

 

Suggestions?

 

145gr FMJs to try and make a "more consistent" Brown Bear since it's kicked the ass of everything else?

 

I'd examine and dissect a brown bear, examine the bullet shape, OAL, case volume, and weigh the powder charge. Maybe you could then load it up in your brass, or at least reuse the bullet. That would tell you if your brass or primer is the problem. You could try to isolate and test one variable at a time, as much as possible. Not quite scientific, but close. I don't know if you could reload into the steel case safely to isolate the other factors using the case and berdan primer, but maybe.

 

Maybe try some lighter, less pointy, non-boat tail bullets.

 

Maybe recrown. Maybe check your scope mount/rings.

 

Maybe just be happy that the cheap stuff shoots the best.

[Snakum 1]

I'd be deliriously happy about the Bear accuracy if it were allowed in competition. The bimetal bullets are a no-no on steel. If it weren't for that I wouldn't even have broken out the reloading supplies.

[csspecs 1,987]

Are you crimping the rounds? Saiga .308s are pretty rough on loading, which could be changing things.

 

Also I've pulled brown bear apart and I don't think the projectiles are boat tails.

[Snakum 1]

Hallelujah! It shoots!

 

Today I threw a Hail Mary and went out with a wide spectrum of loads with the 155gr Amax molys, jammed as far into the lands as the mag allows. My very last group, when the barrel was at it's hottest, put the first three into .750" (with two touching) the fourth opening to 1.125" and a fifth flyer at 2". This one was 42.0gr 4895 with a 2.837 OAL. It looks like the barrel and receiver (flex) seem to calm down some (harmonics) at around 37gr and again at 42gr. So I'm going to work up a few around 42.0 in 3 grain increments and make 'em as long as the mag allows. That's the 'hot' sweet spot, with 37 being the 'cold' sweet spot. I need it as flat as possible (going out to 500 yards on some stages) so I'm hoping I can work around the 42.0 mark and coax a tiny bit more mechanical accuracy hiding in there. Then it's off the the races ... practice, practice, practice. On some of the stages mechanical accuracy can actually be the least of your worries. The setup guys are devious sometimes.

 

Trying this Tuesday:

 

IMR4895

41.7gr

42.0gr

42.3gr

Federal cases trimmed to 2.004, Win LR primers, OAL of 2.840".

 

We shall see ....

[Snakum 1]

Oh, for anyone who hasn't solved the brass denting issue, I just simply folded several layers of black masking tape about 1/8" wide over the top of the ejection port. Problem solved. I now have no problem using my good bolt gun brass.