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BATFE Decision - Will Saiga-12's be legal to import?


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#1 Genghis

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 04:31 PM

When administrative agencies change their rules, they usually have to allow public comment. BATFE is reconsidering whether the Saiga-12 and similar shotguns are "particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes." Under current law, this determines whether each particular model can legally be imported.

This topic should be of particular interest to 3-Gun competitors. If BATFE finds that the Saiga and similar guns don't meet the sporting purposes test, then they can be banned for importation. That means either they won't be available, or they'll cost a lot more because they won't be bringing new ones in.

In the past, BATFE has only considered this question about once every decade. If you care about this, please submit official comments to the agency. You can submit them by fax or email. I believe a professional, well-drafted fax would be the most persuasive, but every positive comment helps.

Attached is a letter I sent regarding this issue. Feel free to PM or email me if you have any questions.

Sean P. Healy
Attorney at Law

Attached Files


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#2 KC913

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 04:37 PM

This really didn't need another thread, but, nice letter.
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#3 Mike Rogers

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 04:58 PM

When administrative agencies change their rules, they usually have to allow public comment. BATFE is reconsidering whether the Saiga-12 and similar shotguns are "particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes." Under current law, this determines whether each particular model can legally be imported.

This topic should be of particular interest to 3-Gun competitors. If BATFE finds that the Saiga and similar guns don't meet the sporting purposes test, then they can be banned for importation. That means either they won't be available, or they'll cost a lot more because they won't be bringing new ones in.

In the past, BATFE has only considered this question about once every decade. If you care about this, please submit official comments to the agency. You can submit them by fax or email. I believe a professional, well-drafted fax would be the most persuasive, but every positive comment helps.

Attached is a letter I sent regarding this issue. Feel free to PM or email me if you have any questions.

Sean P. Healy
Attorney at Law


A really excellent letter, Sean. Well reasoned, well written, and well informed.

Thank you!

Mike
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#4 Heath_h49008

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 05:21 PM


When administrative agencies change their rules, they usually have to allow public comment. BATFE is reconsidering whether the Saiga-12 and similar shotguns are "particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes." Under current law, this determines whether each particular model can legally be imported.

This topic should be of particular interest to 3-Gun competitors. If BATFE finds that the Saiga and similar guns don't meet the sporting purposes test, then they can be banned for importation. That means either they won't be available, or they'll cost a lot more because they won't be bringing new ones in.

In the past, BATFE has only considered this question about once every decade. If you care about this, please submit official comments to the agency. You can submit them by fax or email. I believe a professional, well-drafted fax would be the most persuasive, but every positive comment helps.

Attached is a letter I sent regarding this issue. Feel free to PM or email me if you have any questions.

Sean P. Healy
Attorney at Law


A really excellent letter, Sean. Well reasoned, well written, and well informed.

Thank you!

Mike


Amen.
"Μολὼν λαβέ"... that's Greek for "When you kick in my door, I'll say I lost them", right?

#5 Spartacus

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 05:38 PM

Huge thanks to you on this Sean!

The plain truth is that ATF will find most letters from "Joe Six-Pack" easy to ignore no matter how well thought out and stated. Letters from attorneys with a well supported argument such as yours are much harder to ignore. The whole idea of "Sporting Purposes" is farcical, the People have a right to bear arms.... period.

Attorneys, LEOs, Military, etc. will carry weight with letters such as this defending the Rights of the People. Please help, especially if you fall into one of those groups.

"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

 

“All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void.” (Marbury vs.Madison, 1803.)

 


#6 Sasha

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 06:43 PM

Second Amendment has nothing to do with sport. Sport is not what guns are for. Guns are for protection and to keep government at bay and in check. So why do you try to tell ATF Saiga is for sport? If they did not intend to take them, they would not have made up this "study". They make up make believe "sporting use", because they intend to take guns, if they did not intend to take them, there would be no reason to make up "sporting use". So they make up law to take your gun, and you try to convince them your gun complies with law they make to take it? This must stop or all will be lost.

Edited by Sasha, 08 February 2011 - 06:45 PM.


#7 JJ the GUN MAN

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 07:16 PM

Second Amendment has nothing to do with sport. Sport is not what guns are for. Guns are for protection and to keep government at bay and in check. So why do you try to tell ATF Saiga is for sport? If they did not intend to take them, they would not have made up this "study". They make up make believe "sporting use", because they intend to take guns, if they did not intend to take them, there would be no reason to make up "sporting use". So they make up law to take your gun, and you try to convince them your gun complies with law they make to take it? This must stop or all will be lost.


Deep...real deep :unsure:

#8 Bridis

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 07:37 PM

Second Amendment has nothing to do with sport. Sport is not what guns are for. Guns are for protection and to keep government at bay and in check. So why do you try to tell ATF Saiga is for sport? If they did not intend to take them, they would not have made up this "study". They make up make believe "sporting use", because they intend to take guns, if they did not intend to take them, there would be no reason to make up "sporting use". So they make up law to take your gun, and you try to convince them your gun complies with law they make to take it? This must stop or all will be lost.



I got dizzy going in circles.

#9 Bridis

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 07:58 PM

When administrative agencies change their rules, they usually have to allow public comment. BATFE is reconsidering whether the Saiga-12 and similar shotguns are "particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes." Under current law, this determines whether each particular model can legally be imported.

This topic should be of particular interest to 3-Gun competitors. If BATFE finds that the Saiga and similar guns don't meet the sporting purposes test, then they can be banned for importation. That means either they won't be available, or they'll cost a lot more because they won't be bringing new ones in.

In the past, BATFE has only considered this question about once every decade. If you care about this, please submit official comments to the agency. You can submit them by fax or email. I believe a professional, well-drafted fax would be the most persuasive, but every positive comment helps.

Attached is a letter I sent regarding this issue. Feel free to PM or email me if you have any questions.

Sean P. Healy
Attorney at Law


Thanks for the nice letter. But I thought it should have been a bit more concise. I'm not so positve that any member of the BATFE will make it through the entire thing...

Why do you pose the question "if BATFE finds that the Saiga and similar guns don't meet the sporting purposes test" when it has been made pretty clear up to this point that the S-12 in it's current import state will meet their suggested import requirements? With that kind of reasoning we could make all kinds of assumptions. If the BATFE see their shadow we will all loose our rights to bare arms. If the BATFE see space aliens they will take our gus to fight them. It just doesn't make since.

Sorry.

#10 Sasha

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 08:10 PM


Second Amendment has nothing to do with sport. Sport is not what guns are for. Guns are for protection and to keep government at bay and in check. So why do you try to tell ATF Saiga is for sport? If they did not intend to take them, they would not have made up this "study". They make up make believe "sporting use", because they intend to take guns, if they did not intend to take them, there would be no reason to make up "sporting use". So they make up law to take your gun, and you try to convince them your gun complies with law they make to take it? This must stop or all will be lost.



I got dizzy going in circles.



I appologize for your vertigo, comrade. Please allow me to explain. When I was young, mother did not want me to drink the coffee, so she say it will stunt growth. She knew this was not true, she only say this so I will not drink it. Even if I prove her wrong, it did not matter, her mind was set. So you see, the reason means nothing, it is only a means of justifying the intention.

Edited by Sasha, 08 February 2011 - 08:23 PM.


#11 humanguerrilla

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 08:15 PM

Sen. Dianne Feinstein's Letter to Obama
http://www.nraila.or...ad.aspx?id=6207

NRA response to ATF "Study"
http://www.nraila.or...ad.aspx?id=6172

#12 Sasha

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 08:30 PM

Sen. Dianne Feinstein's Letter to Obama
http://www.nraila.or...ad.aspx?id=6207

NRA response to ATF "Study"
http://www.nraila.or...ad.aspx?id=6172



Many thanks, comrade.

#13 Bridis

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 08:49 PM

I appologize for your vertigo, comrade. Please allow me to explain. When I was young, mother did not want me to drink the coffee, so she say it will stunt growth. She knew this was not true, she only say this so I will not drink it. Even if I prove her wrong, it did not matter, her mind was set. So you see, the reason means nothing, it is only a means of justifying the intention.



Sorry, but your analogies are just as mind numbing. I'm sure we're losing something in translation. ;)

#14 xbmxxx

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 08:57 PM


I appologize for your vertigo, comrade. Please allow me to explain. When I was young, mother did not want me to drink the coffee, so she say it will stunt growth. She knew this was not true, she only say this so I will not drink it. Even if I prove her wrong, it did not matter, her mind was set. So you see, the reason means nothing, it is only a means of justifying the intention.



Sorry, but your analogies are just as mind numbing. I'm sure we're losing something in translation. ;)


I think the point he's trying to make, is that the 2nd ammendment doesn't say "you have a right to bear arms, as long as those arms have been approved for a sporting purpose" it says you have the right in general. And that the atf is making up whatever law they feel like they can use to justify stopping the flow of said gun they don't like in to the country. Therefore, we are wasting our time trying to argue that our guns serve a sporting purpose, because our constitutional right is to own a gun for whateverthehelliwant purpose.

I even feel like I started going in circles there.
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#15 Bridis

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Posted 08 February 2011 - 09:03 PM

I think the point he's trying to make, is that the 2nd ammendment doesn't say "you have a right to bear arms, as long as those arms have been approved for a sporting purpose" it says you have the right in general. And that the atf is making up whatever law they feel like they can use to justify stopping the flow of said gun they don't like in to the country. Therefore, we are wasting our time trying to argue that our guns serve a sporting purpose, because our constitutional right is to own a gun for whateverthehelliwant purpose.

I even feel like I started going in circles there.


You did. Kind of overstating the obvious. But the current study is all but making the S-12 exempt from considerstion.

#16 PostsOnPercocet

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 07:40 PM


I appologize for your vertigo, comrade. Please allow me to explain. When I was young, mother did not want me to drink the coffee, so she say it will stunt growth. She knew this was not true, she only say this so I will not drink it. Even if I prove her wrong, it did not matter, her mind was set. So you see, the reason means nothing, it is only a means of justifying the intention.



Sorry, but your analogies are just as mind numbing. I'm sure we're losing something in translation. ;)


I understood what he said just fine. Most Americans don't, even most of you because you still think we have "rights". They will take these if the want, and none of you will do anything about it except turn them over and go back to watching TV and bitching on the internet.

Go ahead, try and tell me you won't do exactly that if they decide to take these.

#17 Caged

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:07 PM



I appologize for your vertigo, comrade. Please allow me to explain. When I was young, mother did not want me to drink the coffee, so she say it will stunt growth. She knew this was not true, she only say this so I will not drink it. Even if I prove her wrong, it did not matter, her mind was set. So you see, the reason means nothing, it is only a means of justifying the intention.



Sorry, but your analogies are just as mind numbing. I'm sure we're losing something in translation. ;)


I understood what he said just fine. Most Americans don't, even most of you because you still think we have "rights". They will take these if the want, and none of you will do anything about it except turn them over and go back to watching TV and bitching on the internet.

Go ahead, try and tell me you won't do exactly that if they decide to take these.


Ok, if they TRY to take 'em, I'll fill out the appropriate paperwork, go through the legal loops, pay the tax stamp, and keep my gun...

You can go ahead and storm the White House, I'll watch it on CNN and see how that works out for you... :lolol:
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I am now pulling back the thing that you pull back before you fire the gun...

#18 akkalish

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 09:31 PM



I appologize for your vertigo, comrade. Please allow me to explain. When I was young, mother did not want me to drink the coffee, so she say it will stunt growth. She knew this was not true, she only say this so I will not drink it. Even if I prove her wrong, it did not matter, her mind was set. So you see, the reason means nothing, it is only a means of justifying the intention.



Sorry, but your analogies are just as mind numbing. I'm sure we're losing something in translation. ;)


I think the point he's trying to make, is that the 2nd ammendment doesn't say "you have a right to bear arms, as long as those arms have been approved for a sporting purpose" it says you have the right in general. And that the atf is making up whatever law they feel like they can use to justify stopping the flow of said gun they don't like in to the country. Therefore, we are wasting our time trying to argue that our guns serve a sporting purpose, because our constitutional right is to own a gun for whateverthehelliwant purpose.

I even feel like I started going in circles there.


The whateverthehellIwant purposes +100
ARE FOREFATHERS WOULD ALREADY BE SHOOTING....

#19 FORKLIFT352

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 02:05 AM

It will get tax stamp and all the other goo that gos
with it. And then the AWB and then high power
hunting rifle and hand guns then BB guns aaaaand
sling shots.....Oh no it could never happen it the
USA......or could it?

#20 S-12inWV

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 08:22 AM

Thier dream would be a 2 Amemdement here in America that mirrored the gun-rights in Great Britan, Australia, Germany...... And The're slowly trying to get us there! That's why I'm selling ALL my guns, even all those eveil saigas... :ph34r:

Jane Wayne once told Johnny Carson after a question from Carson, knowing Wayne was pro-gun.... Carson: "What are you gonna do John, when they come for you guns?" Wayne, thought for just a split second and firmly said: Wayne: "When they come for my guns, they'll be cold and loaded...When they get my guns, they'll be hot and empty.." John Wayne

#21 King of the Hill

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 08:25 AM

Great quote
.




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