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Range Report - .093 x 4 Drill out


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So I decided to pull the trigger and just drill out my 3 ports to .093, and also added a 4th port at .093 as well because of some FTE issues i was experiencing on my first trip to the range. I know some would say thats premature but honestly, Im not down with shooting 1000 expensive rounds through the gun just to "break it in". Anyway the results were a bit surprising. The biggest difference obviously was that the FTE issues are all but gone. I only had like 2 FTEs on winchester universal, which in my opinion is outstanding. That being said I had some FTF issues that I was not expecting. So here is the ammo I picked up:

 

Winchester Universal - 1200 FPS 1oz 8

Federal - 1290 FPS 1-1/8oz 6

Winchester Xpert - 1325 FPS 1oz 6

Remington - 13xx FPS 1oz 6

 

You might expect the universal to be the worst, well guess what, it was WAYYYYYY better in my gun than the Remington. The Remington was by far the worst. It would FTF just about every single round when using the MD20, and only mildly better using the stock mag. I attribute this to a very sharp edge on the base of the brass. For whatever reason those shells seemed to have a much more pronounced "lip" that was somewhat sharp. I think it was actually digging into the shell below it when it was trying to feed, preventing it from being pushed into the chamber. The Federal shells happend to be MONEY! I didnt have a single problem with any of the federal shells i shot. Pretty amazing that you can have one shell with nearly 100% failure rate, and one shell with nearly 100% reliability! Either way, I am pretty damn happy with the gun now. I know so long as I stick to Federal i can count on super high reliablity, and even pretty damn decent reliability with the winchester, so im pretty stoked.

 

Oh I also want to note that I did some smoothing of the feed ramp as well prior to this run, because I did have some FTF issues last time out too, but this time it actually seemed even worse overall.

 

Ranking the shells I would say for my gun---

 

1- Federal - 1290 FPS 1-1/8oz 6

2- Winchester Xpert - 1325 FPS 1oz 6

3- Winchester Universal - 1200 FPS 1oz 8

4- Remington - 13xx FPS 1oz 6

 

OH for those of you saying that fouling would be an issue....WRONG! Amazingly this time out, there was only a fraction of the shit left in the gas block compared to the first time out. Dont ask my why... perhaps it was from shooting some higher grade shells, rather than the nearly pure Winchester Universal that I shot first time out. Either way, fouling was certainly not an issue so im also pretty damn glad about that!!

Edited by Torqued
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I hope your premature drilling doesn't have an adverse affect on your gun once it is broken in. I'm not sure why you're having an issue with the Remington. I've shot a bunch of it without issue.

 

GLHF.

Edited by Bridis
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You can call it premature if you want, but even after drilling I still needed to run the gun on setting 5 with all of that ammo. The gun is and will be just fine. Im starting to think all this overgassing stuff is a bunch of bullshit unless your running some super hot loads.

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Awesome, im glad it worked out for you. im undecided if i want to drill those holes out, if i do im just drilling out my three and filing down my gas block to un block my partially covered hole.

 

This is what I did. Ill post results as soon as I am able to get mine back together and test it.

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You can call it premature if you want, but even after drilling I still needed to run the gun on setting 5 with all of that ammo. The gun is and will be just fine. Im starting to think all this overgassing stuff is a bunch of bullshit unless your running some super hot loads.

 

 

Are you the new resident gunsmith?

 

I say keep drilling. :lolol:

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I never polish the action of my firearms by shooting them. If they need that I treatment I do so by dissembling and polishing the lockwork.

 

Admittedly, firing the firearm will make it run smoother, but I am convinced that the wear patterns are superior on a firearm that I have taken the time and care to make sure that all working surfaces are polished.

 

The bottom line is a polished action takes less gas to operate and runs faster then a non-polished one.

Edited by Azrial
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Well here is my $0.10 worth:

 

I had some serious FTE problems and I drilled the sh!t out of it. Here is where I made a mistake. If you make the holes to big then as the shot travels down the barrel it will clog the gas ports. Since I can't fill in the hole I simple use only 0 buck or bigger and I have had ZERO FTE's.

 

I recommend you try 0 buck or larger. Walmart sells some cheap 00 buck. I paid less then $10.00 for 15 rounds. If that don't work send me a message and we can talk on the phone. I hope that helps.

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Look, as a wad with shot travels down the barrel the shot becomes compressed by inertia. If you feel I'm in error try this:

 

Pick up on of your wads after you have fired it. You will noticed that the shot was pressed into inside of the wad.

 

Now, carefully remove a wad from a unfired shell. And notice that some wads don't even completely cup all the shot on the sides. Nor is the shot compressed into the wad.

 

Now with that in mind as the wad/shot travels down it wants to travel away from the explosion and can slip off to the side, and plug a gas port.

 

I even found a wad that had a single ball of shot behind it.

 

Look don't believe me just try some 00 buck and see what happens, fare enough.

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Sounds like you did a great job. Glad it cured your FTE issues.

 

In regard to your FTF issue, post up some pix of your bbl throating...it sounds like maybe it needs more work.

Edited by C&S Metall-Werkes
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I started a new thread about the FTF problem... here it is. I took some pics so you can get an idea of whats going on. BTW, this even happens when Im chambering the first round!!!!! If I dont really give the charging handle a really good whip, this happens a good deal of the time. There is definitely a problem :(

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=63190

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Sounds like you did a great job. Glad it cured your FTE issues.

 

In regard to your FTF issue, post up some pix of your bbl throating...it sounds like maybe it needs more work.

 

It doesn't seem to me that it cured much of anything If the gun doesn't shoot reliably. Except we learned how to prevent fouling, bore out the ports and add another, fouling problem solved. :lolol:

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It doesn't seem to me that it cured much of anything If the gun doesn't shoot reliably. Except we learned how to prevent fouling, bore out the ports and add another, fouling problem solved. :lolol:

 

From what I read, he solved his FTE issue. I think he went a little big on his 4-ports, but if that is what it took, what can you do. Can always dial off the gas system to prevent over gassing. A little more fouling is not a big deal if that is what it took to cure the FTE's.

I think he is doing a good job so far. He's close, just a little more massaging and he'll have it.

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So I decided to pull the trigger and just drill out my 3 ports to .093, and also added a 4th port at .093 as well because of some FTE issues i was experiencing on my first trip to the range. I know some would say thats premature but honestly, Im not down with shooting 1000 expensive rounds through the gun just to "break it in". Anyway the results were a bit surprising. The biggest difference obviously was that the FTE issues are all but gone. I only had like 2 FTEs on winchester universal, which in my opinion is outstanding. That being said I had some FTF issues that I was not expecting. So here is the ammo I picked up:

 

Winchester Universal - 1200 FPS 1oz 8

Federal - 1290 FPS 1-1/8oz 6

Winchester Xpert - 1325 FPS 1oz 6

Remington - 13xx FPS 1oz 6

 

You might expect the universal to be the worst, well guess what, it was WAYYYYYY better in my gun than the Remington. The Remington was by far the worst. It would FTF just about every single round when using the MD20, and only mildly better using the stock mag. I attribute this to a very sharp edge on the base of the brass. For whatever reason those shells seemed to have a much more pronounced "lip" that was somewhat sharp. I think it was actually digging into the shell below it when it was trying to feed, preventing it from being pushed into the chamber. The Federal shells happend to be MONEY! I didnt have a single problem with any of the federal shells i shot. Pretty amazing that you can have one shell with nearly 100% failure rate, and one shell with nearly 100% reliability! Either way, I am pretty damn happy with the gun now. I know so long as I stick to Federal i can count on super high reliablity, and even pretty damn decent reliability with the winchester, so im pretty stoked.

 

Oh I also want to note that I did some smoothing of the feed ramp as well prior to this run, because I did have some FTF issues last time out too, but this time it actually seemed even worse overall.

 

Ranking the shells I would say for my gun---

 

1- Federal - 1290 FPS 1-1/8oz 6

2- Winchester Xpert - 1325 FPS 1oz 6

3- Winchester Universal - 1200 FPS 1oz 8

4- Remington - 13xx FPS 1oz 6

 

OH for those of you saying that fouling would be an issue....WRONG! Amazingly this time out, there was only a fraction of the shit left in the gas block compared to the first time out. Dont ask my why... perhaps it was from shooting some higher grade shells, rather than the nearly pure Winchester Universal that I shot first time out. Either way, fouling was certainly not an issue so im also pretty damn glad about that!!

 

Torqued, Over gassing is definately a real thing to consider in any gas operated desing, not only guns. There is a very good chance that is what is now causing the ftf's. It sounds like you have a V-Plug as you refered to setting 5. You also said you had to use setting five for it all. Some of those rounds mentioned are way to hot for the 5 setting. What is likely happening is the action of the gun is operating so fast that the mags aren't keeping up. You will see it in the drum first. Does the drum get better the emptier it gets (down to stick mag capacities)? It sounds like you should start with the 2 setting for the hotter stuff. If it fte's go to 3, ect... That should clear you up. Haven't looked at the other thread yet to see what your hanging on... But if it is down low it is likely a bad feed angle cause by the low feed of a shell not raising fast enough to keep up with the action.

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I just noticed that the rounds mentioned above aren't as hot as I thought. I thought the 13xx fps were buck rounds. You might could try starting at 3 instead... It still sounds a lot like an over working action. The low feed supports it. I bet the hotter the rounds the worse the problems, right?

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Sounds like you did a great job. Glad it cured your FTE issues.

 

In regard to your FTF issue, post up some pix of your bbl throating...it sounds like maybe it needs more work.

 

It doesn't seem to me that it cured much of anything If the gun doesn't shoot reliably. Except we learned how to prevent fouling, bore out the ports and add another, fouling problem solved. :lolol:

Let's see some video of yours shooting low power loads reliably. Show me how it is done.

 

Instead of taking jabs at the OP, why don't you tell us what we should do to achieve reliability. Be proactive. Share your Saiga 12 knowledge with the rest of us. I'm all for learning how to make something run well.

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Mike, thx for taking the time to check out this thread!

 

Heres the deal, I even have rounds failing to chamber just when im manually trying to load the first round...thats how bad this is.

 

Honestly, I didnt really notice the FTFs getting worse as I went on. When I started out with the Remington on a full drum, at least the first 8-10 rounds got caught up trying to feed. I thought it was the lip on the shell, but after just messing with the shells in my hand, I see that given the angles involved, its impossible for the brass lip (toward the open end) of one shell to even touch another shell, so my thought that the lip was biting into the shell below it is incorrect. The shells are most definitely going in at too steep of an angle and getting caught on the bottom feed ramp.

 

Im thinking the federal shells probably ran better because they may have had a harder plastic hull...just a guess though at this point.

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Mike, thx for taking the time to check out this thread!

 

Heres the deal, I even have rounds failing to chamber just when im manually trying to load the first round...thats how bad this is.

 

Honestly, I didnt really notice the FTFs getting worse as I went on. When I started out with the Remington on a full drum, at least the first 8-10 rounds got caught up trying to feed. I thought it was the lip on the shell, but after just messing with the shells in my hand, I see that given the angles involved, its impossible for the brass lip (toward the open end) of one shell to even touch another shell, so my thought that the lip was biting into the shell below it is incorrect. The shells are most definitely going in at too steep of an angle and getting caught on the bottom feed ramp.

 

Im thinking the federal shells probably ran better because they may have had a harder plastic hull...just a guess though at this point.

That hard plastic hull makes quite a bit of difference.

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If you read the original thread about his gun you will see that I did try to share my experience with my gun. I could take a video of my non drilled gun firing 100% but I don't think we need anymore drum dump videos with the S12 rite now. You are just going to have to take my word for it that my gun runs perfectly with no drilling. I just feel you should try to fix the problem with drilling as a last resort, because it is not always necessary. I read all the time that someone has drilled and is excited their gun runs 98% reliably. That is not reliable. All the info is here to fix fte's without drilling. Unless your ports are not the propper size from the factory. F#*k it just drill, lol!!

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If you read the original thread about his gun you will see that I did try to share my experience with my gun. I could take a video of my non drilled gun firing 100% but I don't think we need anymore drum dump videos with the S12 rite now. You are just going to have to take my word for it that my gun runs perfectly with no drilling. I just feel you should try to fix the problem with drilling as a last resort, because it is not always necessary. I read all the time that someone has drilled and is excited their gun runs 98% reliably. That is not reliable. All the info is here to fix fte's without drilling. Unless your ports are not the propper size from the factory. F#*k it just drill, lol!!

You should know the rules by now. Video.... or it doesn't run 100%. The reason I post 100 round dump videos is because it is a perfect way to demonstrate reliability by percentage. There is a method to my madness....

 

I do agree that there is much more to it than drilling/adding ports. It takes me about 12-14 hours to rework the weapon from front to back. Very little of that time is spent drilling. I just thought you might have more knowledge to share on the matter. Maybe I missed it.

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If you read the original thread about his gun you will see that I did try to share my experience with my gun. I could take a video of my non drilled gun firing 100% but I don't think we need anymore drum dump videos with the S12 rite now. You are just going to have to take my word for it that my gun runs perfectly with no drilling. I just feel you should try to fix the problem with drilling as a last resort, because it is not always necessary. I read all the time that someone has drilled and is excited their gun runs 98% reliably. That is not reliable. All the info is here to fix fte's without drilling. Unless your ports are not the propper size from the factory. F#*k it just drill, lol!!

 

You saying you can run 100 winchester unv value 100%? Because those were the only shells that fte for me and it was probably about 3%. Ive yet to have any failures of any kind with Federal

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If you are running federal 100%, you should be good. The 3 fte's you had with winchester may just be defective shells, I find them all the time. It sounds to me like your gun is fixed then. Try looking through every shell and removing the ones that have defects and you should run 100%. And yes mine runs winchester 100%, as well do many others, a properly tuned gun should. Here is a pic of what to look out for.Trust me I only want the best for all members here.

post-19600-0-84583700-1297526501_thumb.jpg

Edited by King of the Hill
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